White sleeves

[James Stephen]

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Swan wasn't anti catholic but there were plenty people in Edinburgh who were .Swan didn't want Hibs thought of as a catholic club at a time when there were mobs marching against Catholics in Morningside of all places and Bailie John Cormack and his Protestant Action Neanderthals gearing up.

Thought you were in Italy.

This is my take on Swan too.

Not anti-catholic or anti- Irish, but neither was he particularly pro - i think he was a pragmatist and a moderniser.

That does mean that he probably felt less affinity with our Irish symbolism than previous owners/highheidyins, and so would have been more open to change.

Personally i think its a shame that we lost what we did, but given Protestant Action won 30% of the vote in local elections and were the most successful extremist party in UK electoral history up until the BNP beat them a few years back, the extreme anti irish anti catholic feeling in wider society does provide context, and does have to be understood.

[lapsedhibee]

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Leonard Cohen explains everything in his classic 1974 track 'Leaving Greensleeves'
He puts himself in Harry Swans shoes and allows us an insight into his thoughts as he discarded the green sleeves.

[superfurryhibby]

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This is my take on Swan too.

Not anti-catholic or anti- Irish, but neither was he particularly pro - i think he was a pragmatist and a moderniser.

That does mean that he probably felt less affinity with our Irish symbolism than previous owners/highheidyins, and so would have been more open to change.

Personally i think its a shame that we lost what we did, but given Protestant Action won 30% of the vote in local elections and were the most successful extremist party in UK electoral history up until the BNP beat them a few years back, the extreme anti irish anti catholic feeling in wider society does provide context, and does have to be understood.

What did we lose?

Prior to Swan the club was struggling financially, it had been relegated for the first time in its history and the shares were held amongst a small group of families who lacked the vision to take the club forward. Swan built a massive terracing, oversaw three titles and made us a modern forward facing club.

[Prof. Shaggy]

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Leonard Cohen explains everything in his classic 1974 track 'Leaving Greensleeves'
He puts himself in Harry Swans shoes and allows us an insight into his thoughts as he discarded the green sleeves.

Lovely!

[Keith_M]

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What did we lose?

Prior to Swan the club was struggling financially, it had been relegated for the first time in its history and the shares were held amongst a small group of families who lacked the vision to take the club forward. Swan built a massive terracing, oversaw three titles and made us a modern forward facing club.

I was wondering that as well.

The club was still called Hibernian and still played in green and white, but after Swan took over, there was a much wider fan base.

Surely that's a gain, not a loss.

[James Stephen]

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What did we lose?

Prior to Swan the club was struggling financially, it had been relegated for the first time in its history and the shares were held amongst a small group of families who lacked the vision to take the club forward. Swan built a massive terracing, oversaw three titles and made us a modern forward facing club.

I appreciate all that, and im not saying swan was bad for hibs, quite the opposite.

But his vision did involve the club moving away, at least in part, from its roots. The harps being taken off the stadium, being a visual example.

Id say that hibs slightly confused and at times, uneasy relationship with our own history probably resulted from this.

[James Stephen]

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I was wondering that as well.

The club was still called Hibernian and still played in green and white, but after Swan took over, there was a much wider fan base.

Surely that's a gain, not a loss.

Ive answered below.

[Kato]

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I appreciate all that, and im not saying swan was bad for hibs, quite the opposite.

But his vision did involve the club moving away, at least in part, from its roots. The harps being taken off the stadium, being a visual example.

Id say that hibs slightly confused and at times, uneasy relationship with our own history probably resulted from this.

It wasn't part of his vision for Hibs to have the Harp removed. The Harp was taken down as part of building works in the 1950's, 20 years after Swan arrived.

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[superfurryhibby]

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It wasn't part of his vision for Hibs to have the Harp removed. The Harp was taken down as part of building works in the 1950's, 20 years after Swan arrived.

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Apparently there was a Harp mural commissioned and presented to Swan round about the same time which sat proudly in the boardroom

There’s a very good piece written by a Hibee which totally debunks all the Swan related slurs that emanate from along the M8 in relation to his fictitious up anti-catholicism, the mythical proposal to change the colours and all other such gash talk.

I don’t think the club would have had any regrets about the direction Hibs moved in under Swan. He’s undoubtedly one of the key figures in our history. Hibs navigated impending financial ruin at the beginning of his custodianship, within ten years of his Chairmanship we were one of the World best teams, playing in a massive stadium and on a glorious journey.

[James Stephen]

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It wasn't part of his vision for Hibs to have the Harp removed. The Harp was taken down as part of building works in the 1950's, 20 years after Swan arrived.

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I think Swan was a visonary, but there is no doubt in my mind that part of that vision was to make Hibs more appealing to non traditional supporters, a large number of whom were pretty anti Irish and anti catholic.

Therefore i think his vision involved moving away from the explicitly Irish nationalist approach Hibs had taken previously. And probably it worked, and certainly helped to put Hibs in a very strong position to take advantage of the post war boom.

I dont think that makes him anti anything, it just made him either ambivalent enough, or pragmatic enough, to think Hibs traditions were holding them back. And maybe he was right.

But i think Hibs did lose something in that mindset which dominated the club into the late 90s early 00s. The fact that Hibs required 2 or 3 iterations of the badge before they reestablished the harp to its rightful place, speaks to that.

So im not saying swan was right or wrong in his approach - i think he was probably right and his approach was vindicated. But, it did come at a cost. That may have been a cost that most Hibs fans think was worth it, of course.

[Keith_M]

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I think Swan was a visonary, but there is no doubt in my mind that part of that vision was to make Hibs more appealing to non traditional supporters, a large number of whom were pretty anti Irish and anti catholic.

Therefore i think his vision involved moving away from the explicitly Irish nationalist approach Hibs had taken previously. And probably it worked, and certainly helped to put Hibs in a very strong position to take advantage of the post war boom.

I dont think that makes him anti anything, it just made him either ambivalent enough, or pragmatic enough, to think Hibs traditions were holding them back. And maybe he was right.

But i think Hibs did lose something in that mindset which dominated the club into the late 90s early 00s. The fact that Hibs required 2 or 3 iterations of the badge before they reestablished the harp to its rightful place, speaks to that.

So im not saying swan was right or wrong in his approach - i think he was probably right and his approach was vindicated. But, it did come at a cost. That may have been a cost that most Hibs fans think was worth it, of course.

I do appreciate the effort you made to explain your Pov (honestly, no sarcasm or anything) but I'm not sure we genuinely lost anything. Hibs hadn't played with a harp on their top for decades before Swan arrived, so it's not like that was actually lost.

I say that as somebody that has no Catholic Irish heritage that I'm aware of but also love the current configuration of the badge (including the Harp), as it gives the essence of who we are.

I think it would probably have been much harder, though, to re-introduce the Harp immediately after the war, as there was still some resentment to Ireland due to their neutral stance. Thankfully that mindset has long since gone in most people.

[superfurryhibby]

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I think Swan was a visonary, but there is no doubt in my mind that part of that vision was to make Hibs more appealing to non traditional supporters, a large number of whom were pretty anti Irish and anti catholic.

Therefore i think his vision involved moving away from the explicitly Irish nationalist approach Hibs had taken previously. And probably it worked, and certainly helped to put Hibs in a very strong position to take advantage of the post war boom.

I dont think that makes him anti anything, it just made him either ambivalent enough, or pragmatic enough, to think Hibs traditions were holding them back. And maybe he was right.

But i think Hibs did lose something in that mindset which dominated the club into the late 90s early 00s. The fact that Hibs required 2 or 3 iterations of the badge before they reestablished the harp to its rightful place, speaks to that.

So im not saying swan was right or wrong in his approach - i think he was probably right and his approach was vindicated. But, it did come at a cost. That may have been a cost that most Hibs fans think was worth it, of course.

Not sure there was any “cost”. You’ll need to elaborate on that one?

When you see the nonsense that accompanies the Glasgow derby, I think we absolutely did the right thing to move the club on from the perception that surrounded it up until the Swan era.

The broader climate changed and the return of the Harp to our club’s identity came with the end to the troubles and a shift in the supporters outlook. My memory tells me that there was still a strong anti orange identity amongst our fans well into the 80’s . This would particularly manifest during *games v the Hun, with songs about King Billy’s army of a 100,000 men and dying an orange bassa etc. By the late 90’s this was no longer part of our fans repertoire.

[James Stephen]

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I do appreciate the effort you made to explain your Pov (honestly, no sarcasm or anything) but I'm not sure we genuinely lost anything. Hibs hadn't played with a harp on their top for decades before Swan arrived, so it's not like that was actually lost.

I say that as somebody that has no Catholic Irish heritage that I'm aware of but also love the current configuration of the badge (including the Harp), as it gives the essence of who we are.

I think it would probably have been much harder, though, to re-introduce the Harp immediately after the war, as there was still some resentment to Ireland due to their neutral stance. Thankfully that mindset has long since gone in most people.

I think lots of Hibs fans would agree with you - and your last para kinda sums it up. There was always a reason for Hibs to shy away from their history, be it when they were founded, be it after the 1916 rising and the establishment of the free state, during the 30s with PA on the march in edinburgh, post war for the reasons you state, into the 60s 70s and 80s due to the troubles. But for many hibs fans that was surrendering theirs, and the clubs identity and history to apease prejudice and suspicion.

As i say, i think Hibs history and identity is complex and fascinating.

Also i think Swan's willingness to change the strip indicates that he wasnt afraid to slay a few sacred cows in the name of progress. I mean changing a clubs strip is no small thing, and imagine the debate it would cause now!

I am sure Swan acted in what he thought was Hibs best interests, and his ownership of the club was the golden era.

Such arguments dominate football still, as we are seeing in England regularly.

[James Stephen]

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Not sure there was any “cost”. You’ll need to elaborate on that one?

When you see the nonsense that accompanies the Glasgow derby, I think we absolutely did the right thing to move the club on from the perception that surrounded it up until the Swan era.

The broader climate changed and the return of the Harp to our club’s identity came with the end to the troubles and a shift in the supporters outlook. My memory tells me that there was still a strong anti orange identity amongst our fans well into the 80’s . This would particularly manifest during *games v the Hun, with songs about King Billy’s army of a 100,000 men and dying an orange bassa etc. By the late 90’s this was no longer part of our fans repertoire.

Yeah i remember that in the 80s and early 90s, against the huns, but this was also the era that the Irish flag was - supposedly - banned from Easter Road (may have been an apocryphal story) - its actually a good example of the complex identity of the club and its support.

Here is an example, that ties into another big discussion on the board around potential European leagues in the future.

What if, a European league emerged, and Ron Gordon wanted Hibs at its centre. So we enter, and bumble around for a few years. Then, some market research comes out that says that the main TV market for this new league find Hibernian difficult to say, and it is hindering the clubs growth, so they propose to change the name to Edinburgh Hibs instead,. The move goes through, some fans hate it, more dont like it but enough acquiesce. However, the foreign markets love it, and Hibs start to grow their commercial income hugely in overseas markets, they become associated much more closely with Edinburgh, and all of the rise in interest, crowds and sponsorship that brings. Hibs grow significantly as a result, and soon have much higher revenues, driving on field success and higher crowds, the stadium is expanded and by some miracle coming together of great manager, great players, and a wee bit of luck, Hibs win the new North European league (or whatever it is called), and go on from there.

In 60, 70 or 80 years, Ron Gordon is (correctly) lauded as the visionary man who made this happen, and while he absolutely wasn't anti Irish etc, he wasn't going to let a wee thing like whether to use our full name, or our abbreviated nickname (which most people used most of the time anyway), get in the way of the club fulfilling its potential, especially when it was preventing the club from tapping into a whole new support base and growing and becoming more successful.

Would our club have lost something in that process? Would fans in 80 years time, who had only ever known the club as Edinburgh Hibs care? And would those future fans feel like they had lost anything in the process of substantially growing the club and achieving notable success?

I would suggest that the club would have lost something, but that future fans (or a great majority) wouldn't care and wouldn't see it that way.

I would imagine that the reforms Swan introduced - none of which were huge in and of themselves - might have been a similar scenario.

And in terms of what was lost, I think an appreciation and a deference for our history and heritage was lost (thankfully not forever, and this has been rolled back to an extent), the harp was lost for generations (the fact it was reinstated suggests many also felt it had been wrongfully removed), and of course the famous green shirts were lost. Having grown up knowing nothing but our present day strips, i'm content with that, but I wonder what the people who were around at the time would think?

Apologies for the very long post, I should say I genuinely don't think there is a right or wrong answer to any of this, it is all about individual perception.

[Kato]

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I think lots of Hibs fans would agree with you - and your last para kinda sums it up. There was always a reason for Hibs to shy away from their history, be it when they were founded, be it after the 1916 rising and the establishment of the free state, during the 30s with PA on the march in edinburgh, post war for the reasons you state, into the 60s 70s and 80s due to the troubles. But for many hibs fans that was surrendering theirs, and the clubs identity and history to apease prejudice and suspicion.

As i say, i think Hibs history and identity is complex and fascinating.

Also i think Swan's willingness to change the strip indicates that he wasnt afraid to slay a few sacred cows in the name of progress. I mean changing a clubs strip is no small thing, and imagine the debate it would cause now!

I am sure Swan acted in what he thought was Hibs best interests, and his ownership of the club was the golden era.

Such arguments dominate football still, as we are seeing in England regularly.

Whatever theories about attracting potential anti-catholic/anti-Irish fans you believe taking the Harp down from the front of the old entrance just isn't part of one nor is it true.

It was taken down due the frontage being demolished 20 years into Swans tenure. A new Harp was instated in the board room and presented to Swan when he sold the club on.

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[Pagan Hibernia]

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Apparently there was a Harp mural commissioned and presented to Swan round about the same time which sat proudly in the boardroom

There’s a very good piece written by a Hibee which totally debunks all the Swan related slurs that emanate from along the M8 in relation to his fictitious up anti-catholicism, the mythical proposal to change the colours and all other such gash talk.

I don’t think the club would have had any regrets about the direction Hibs moved in under Swan. He’s undoubtedly one of the key figures in our history. Hibs navigated impending financial ruin at the beginning of his custodianship, within ten years of his Chairmanship we were one of the World best teams, playing in a massive stadium and on a glorious journey.

I wonder where that mural would be now? It should be in the club museum.

[James Stephen]

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Whatever theories about attracting potential anti-catholic/anti-Irish fans you believe taking the Harp down from the front of the old entrance just isn't part of one nor is it true.

It was taken down due the frontage being demolished 20 years into Swans tenure. A new Harp was instated in the board room and presented to Swan when he sold the club on.

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I don't think there is any doubt that the Harp went from the being clubs recognised symbol, to not being, and it was 'lost' as a recognised symbol of the club for generations.

Either that was done deliberately (in which case it was done for a reason), or it was done by accident (in which case it wasn't seen as important enough to reinstate). Both scenarios tell a story, imo.

[superfurryhibby]

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I wonder where that mural would be now? It should be in the club museum.

From memory, it was presented to Swan’s widow after the great man died. You would hope it’s a family heirloom.

I remember interviewing Jim Gray years ago and asking him about archived stuff. He said that sadly people hadn’t really had the foresight to appreciate the value in old stuff, like contracts and the like. Very little had been saved for posterity. Imagine a Gordon Smith or Eddie Turnbull contract in the club’s museum.

[James Stephen]

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From memory, it was presented to Swan’s widow after the great man died. You would hope it’s a family heirloom.

I remember interviewing Jim Gray years ago and asking him about archived stuff. He said that sadly people hadn’t really had the foresight to appreciate the value in old stuff, like contracts and the like. Very little had been saved for posterity. Imagine a Gordon Smith or Eddie Turnbull contract in the club’s museum.

Its such a shame, when you think of the things that will have been lost over the decades, or are rotting in someone's attic somewhere.

Does this apply to things like the league winning flags? I don't recall ever having seen any of those on any of the tours etc?

[Brizo]

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Whatever theories about attracting potential anti-catholic/anti-Irish fans you believe taking the Harp down from the front of the old entrance just isn't part of one nor is it true.

It was taken down due the frontage being demolished 20 years into Swans tenure. A new Harp was instated in the board room and presented to Swan when he sold the club on.

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While this is true, the club had ceased using the harp to represent itself in its day to day business from the end of WW2 onwards. The crest that appeared on club blazers, League Winners medals, club correspondence and the Coronation Cup Final programme was the Edinburgh coat of arms amended to include a football and the title "Edinburgh Hibernian FC". The club had effectively re-branded itself from 1945 while retaining the mosaic harp above the main stand for historical and heritage reasons.

The most likely reason for this is that post-war football was booming and no place more than ER were the Famous Five team attracted tens of thousands of new fans, most of whom had no connection to our origins. Re-branding the club with a much stronger Edinburgh identity would recognize, and be appreciated by, this new supporter base while retaining the Harp above the main stand would continue to acknowledge our origins.

A factor that may have made this decision easier was that the post-war Board no longer contained any Directors with Irish Catholic heritage who may have been more welded to retaining our original crest than others. Keith Ms point about ROIs neutrality during WW2 is an additional factor with the sensitivities of returning servicemen and those who had lost loved ones during the war to be considered.

The late Alan Lugtons excellent trilogy firmly debunks the myth that Harry Swan was anti-Irish or anti-Catholic.

As to the Harp mosaics current whereabouts an old Southside Hibby well versed in the club's history told me that one of Swan's descendants who is a current ST holder has it in their possession.

[Mick O'Rourke]

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While this is true, the club had ceased using the harp to represent itself in its day to day business from the end of WW2 onwards. The crest that appeared on club blazers, League Winners medals, club correspondence and the Coronation Cup Final programme was the Edinburgh coat of arms amended to include a football and the title "Edinburgh Hibernian FC". The club had effectively re-branded itself from 1945 while retaining the mosaic harp above the main stand for historical and heritage reasons.

The most likely reason for this is that post-war football was booming and no place more than ER were the Famous Five team attracted tens of thousands of new fans, most of whom had no connection to our origins. Re-branding the club with a much stronger Edinburgh identity would recognize, and be appreciated by, this new supporter base while retaining the Harp above the main stand would continue to acknowledge our origins.

A factor that may have made this decision easier was that the post-war Board no longer contained any Directors with Irish Catholic heritage who may have been more welded to retaining our original crest than others. Keith Ms point about ROIs neutrality during WW2 is an additional factor with the sensitivities of returning servicemen and those who had lost loved ones during the war to be considered.

The late Alan Lugtons excellent trilogy firmly debunks the myth that Harry Swan was anti-Irish or anti-Catholic.

As to the Harp mosaics current whereabouts an old Southside Hibby well versed in the club's history told me that one of Swan's descendants who is a current ST holder has it in their possession.

You mention Alan Lugton
As a wee schoolboy, late 50s early 60s, i travelled to away games on the St Giles bus
As did Alan Lugton
I recall many Irish Songs being sung on the bus though sometimes bus convener would call a halt to some of the songs
One chant, though that i did not realise the significance till i was older, was against Harry Swan
"we'll hang Harry Swan wae a rope aroond his neck" was the chant

The removal of The Harp being responsible for this chant?

Older fans may recall that Hibs"iost"a number of supporters who objected to the removal of the.Harp
Interestingly a Celtic SC was started in Edinburgh's Southside during this period.

[A Hi-Bee]

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You mention Alan Lugton
As a wee schoolboy, late 50s early 60s, i travelled to away games on the St Giles bus
As did Alan Lugton
I recall many Irish Songs being sung on the bus though sometimes bus convener would call a halt to some of the songs
One chant, though that i did not realise the significance till i was older, was against Harry Swan
"we'll hang Harry Swan wae a rope aroond his neck" was the chant

The removal of The Harp being responsible for this chant>

Older fans may recall that Hibs"iost"a number of supporters who objected to the removal of the.Harp
Interestingly a Celtic SC was started in Edinburgh's Southside during this period.

I always thought that the chant was directed at him due to selling Joe Baker, could be wrong.

[Mick O'Rourke]

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I always thought that the chant was directed at him due to selling Joe Baker, could be wrong.

Me too at some point
Could be both reasons
Harry certainly alienated many fans by not re erecting the Harp after building work

Change is sometimes difficult to deal with.
The Harp returning made me happy
Another chairman toyed with the idea of changing our colours !!!

[Brizo]

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You mention Alan Lugton
As a wee schoolboy, late 50s early 60s, i travelled to away games on the St Giles bus
As did Alan Lugton
I recall many Irish Songs being sung on the bus though sometimes bus convener would call a halt to some of the songs
One chant, though that i did not realise the significance till i was older, was against Harry Swan
"we'll hang Harry Swan wae a rope aroond his neck" was the chant

The removal of The Harp being responsible for this chant>

Older fans may recall that Hibs"iost"a number of supporters who objected to the removal of the.Harp
Interestingly a Celtic SC was started in Edinburgh's Southside during this period.

Interesting stuff Mick.

As an Old Town boy it's always fascinating to read your anecdotes of "The Market" and those city centre areas that, even in my childhood , still contained quite a lot of "Little Ireland" Hibbies

[Mick O'Rourke]

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Interesting stuff Mick.

As an Old Town boy it's always fascinating to read your anecdotes of "The Market" and those city centre areas that, even in my childhood , still contained quite a lot of "Little Ireland" Hibbies

Yes, at the time i mention many members of the St Giles Branch who hailed from the Market Coogate area could trace family back to Hibs origins.

Many who left the Market area for the schemes(social engineering) still returned to travel on the bus and socialise with old friends in places like O'Rourke's pub (no relation)

[EI255]

I started supporting Hibernian in 1901 because I liked the all green.

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[Since452]

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I started supporting Hibernian in 1901 because I liked the all green.

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Gutted you've seen us win more Scottish Cups than me

[James Stephen]

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You mention Alan Lugton
As a wee schoolboy, late 50s early 60s, i travelled to away games on the St Giles bus
As did Alan Lugton
I recall many Irish Songs being sung on the bus though sometimes bus convener would call a halt to some of the songs
One chant, though that i did not realise the significance till i was older, was against Harry Swan
"we'll hang Harry Swan wae a rope aroond his neck" was the chant

The removal of The Harp being responsible for this chant>

Older fans may recall that Hibs"iost"a number of supporters who objected to the removal of the.Harp
Interestingly a Celtic SC was started in Edinburgh's Southside during this period.

Great stuff, also love reading your old town anecdotes, my faithers side are from the coogate so its great to hear.

[EI255]

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Gutted you've seen us win more Scottish Cups than me

I still drink at the Hibernian Bar too.

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[JimBHibees]

Was Harry Swan not the owner when we won 3 leagues in about ten years?