What now for Scotland?

[Highland_Hibee]

Needless to say football hasn't been where I've been finding any joy over the past few weeks.

At the beginning of the Strachan reign I was optimistic and some performances quickly backed up that optimism. I thought we were going forward with a decent blend of youth and experience. We were never looking like world beaters just a solid outfit that might just qualify for a major tournament round the corner.

Fast forward to now and those feelings are all gone. Replaced with disbelief that we can't even turn in a respectable performance against fellow also rans of world football.

We simply have to ditch repeat offenders and throw any young prospects into the deep end and hope they swim. Sling your Fletchers, Hutton, Maloney, Naismith etc.

Chuck in Tierney, Burke, McGinn, Henderson, Paterson, Cummings, Gauld and any others with hope of promise.

We might suffer the odd 5v0 drubbing at the hand of the more competent nations but so what? We aren't going to be in any worse a position than we have been for fast approaching 20 years. Best scenario one or two of these players take the chance and gell into respectable performers.




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[Hibby Bairn]

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Needless to say football hasn't been where I've been finding any joy over the past few weeks.

At the beginning of the Strachan reign I was optimistic and some performances quickly backed up that optimism. I thought we were going forward with a decent blend of youth and experience. We were never looking like world beaters just a solid outfit that might just qualify for a major tournament round the corner.

Fast forward to now and those feelings are all gone. Replaced with disbelief that we can't even turn in a respectable performance against fellow also rans of world football.

We simply have to ditch repeat offenders and throw any young prospects into the deep end and hope they swim. Sling your Fletchers, Hutton, Maloney, Naismith etc.

Chuck in Tierney, Burke, McGinn, Henderson, Paterson, Cummings, Gauld and any others with hope of promise.

We might suffer the odd 5v0 drubbing at the hand of the more competent nations but so what? We aren't going to be in any worse a position than we have been for fast approaching 20 years. Best scenario one or two of these players take the chance and gell into respectable performers.




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That is what Vogts did...not sure it moved us any further forward.

For me the SFA and others should be asking questions such as...

1. With all the children and youths playing football over the past 10 years why is the best we can produce at RB Calum Paterson?

2. With all the children and youths playing football over the past 10 years why do we have no one who is ready and better than Martin and Hanley at CB?

3. Why has Gauld not progressed?

4. Why is Steven Fletcher the only real international that has progressed from the Euro U19 final v Spain circa 10 yrs ago?

5. Why have Tierney, Burke, Robertson and Griffiths all progressed to the level they are now at?...Are there any lessons to be learned that can be replicated?...Are there any "tipping points" that we can uncover?

The answers might give us the insights we need to introduce effective changes needed so in 10 years time we are not asking the same questions.

[Iain G]

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Needless to say football hasn't been where I've been finding any joy over the past few weeks.

At the beginning of the Strachan reign I was optimistic and some performances quickly backed up that optimism. I thought we were going forward with a decent blend of youth and experience. We were never looking like world beaters just a solid outfit that might just qualify for a major tournament round the corner.

Fast forward to now and those feelings are all gone. Replaced with disbelief that we can't even turn in a respectable performance against fellow also rans of world football.

We simply have to ditch repeat offenders and throw any young prospects into the deep end and hope they swim. Sling your Fletchers, Hutton, Maloney, Naismith etc.

Chuck in Tierney, Burke, McGinn, Henderson, Paterson, Cummings, Gauld and any others with hope of promise.

We might suffer the odd 5v0 drubbing at the hand of the more competent nations but so what? We aren't going to be in any worse a position than we have been for fast approaching 20 years. Best scenario one or two of these players take the chance and gell into respectable performers.




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Replace Strachan with John Collins

[Highland_Hibee]

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That is what Vogts did...not sure it moved us any further forward.

It didn't break the mould but it gave us players who could put in respectable performances against major nations such as Italy and France.

We have fallen far away from there.



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[Kato]

Pick any permutation of players and play them in whatever formation or position you would like, it won't make the slightest bit difference. We don't produce players who are good enough to perform well at international level any more and haven't done for years. I honestly can't believe the discussions going on today about team selection and tactics as though it actually makes a difference.

A new manager might come in and freshen things up for a wee while, maybe even get some decent results but it won't last and they will fail long term due to lack of talent.

No sign of this changing whilst the SFA sits and does nothing to improve our national game and act as though they are The Rangers lap-dog.

Scottish football is a backwater.

[Jones28]

Whoever comes in to replace Strachan has got to show more balls in their selection. Last night Griffiths and Mcginn did more than Fletcher and Snodgrass in their 15 minute cameos than either of those 2. If Mcginn can put in a MOTM performance against whoever it was on his debut then why cant he be trusted to start against Slovakia when it matters? Surely he is a better option than Darren Fletcher who is a substitute waiting to happen. Also, why was Oli Burke dropped? He is much better option than Matt ****ing Ritchie and is at least a young, raw Scottish talent compared to a guy who is hardly a world beater in English football?

[Oscar T Grouch]

Unfortunately Scotlands football needs an overhaul from the grass roots to the very top. We need to look at countries like Iceland and see what they are doing. The whole structure of Scottish football worked when we were poorer and kids only option to escape poverty was football. We still have poor kids but they've got so much else to choose from. Also the SFA haven't come up with a decent idea to propell our game forward in 40 years, and knowing them, they could not get an decent idea between all of them. Scottish football is finished until we change everything, ergo Scottish football is finished because the powers that be don't want to change everything.

[J-C]

The league set up here is all wrong also, even though Celtic and Rangers were the top 2 clubs in Scotland, there was always a few clubs capable of challenging them back in the 60-70's. Hearts, Hibs, Dundee U and Aberdeen all produced decent teams with players who went on to bigger things down south but the SFA played around with our leagues and made sure the 2 ugly sisters from the west would get the lions share of any monies brought into Scottish football, thus keeping us all poor and unable to challenge them for titles or cups on a regular basis. This has to be the 1st thing addressed, get a competitive league set up again and make sure the money brought in is shared between all the clubs fairly.

[Paisley Hibby]

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Replace Strachan with John Collins

Well he's Scottish and currently out of a job. But so too (as far as I know) are Jimmy Calderwood, Jackie McNamara, Malky McKay, Paul Lambert and John Hughes. All of them every bit as gash as Collins. None of them better than Strachan (and that's a low bar).

[Paisley Hibby]

We can surely afford to pay more than Northern Ireland and as Michael O'Neil has shown he can qualify with a team of journeyman then he'd be a good choice. Also, as far as I know, he still lives in Scotland?

[beensaidbefore]

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That is what Vogts did...not sure it moved us any further forward.

We got volts in to do a rebuild of Scottish football after realising what we had on offer was *****. We then pandered to the media and got rid far too quickly. Had we given him more time to work from grassroots up I don't think we would be in the position we are today. Short-sightedness coupled with Glasgow fa is the problem. Until that is changed there will be nothing but a steady continuation of decline.

[beensaidbefore]

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We can surely afford to pay more than Northern Ireland and as Michael O'Neil has shown he can qualify with a team of journeyman then he'd be a good choice. Also, as far as I know, he still lives in Scotland?

Even the N Irish can put aside their differences though Glasgow can't seem to.

[Cod Boy]

It's the same inquest campaign after campaign but nothing is ever done to change the structure of the national team.

[Itsnoteasy]

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That is what Vogts did...not sure it moved us any further forward.

For me the SFA and others should be asking questions such as...

1. With all the children and youths playing football over the past 10 years why is the best we can produce at RB Calum Paterson?

2. With all the children and youths playing football over the past 10 years why do we have no one who is ready and better than Martin and Hanley at CB?

3. Why has Gauld not progressed?

4. Why is Steven Fletcher the only real international that has progressed from the Euro U19 final v Spain circa 10 yrs ago?

5. Why have Tierney, Burke, Robertson and Griffiths all progressed to the level they are now at?...Are there any lessons to be learned that can be replicated?...Are there any "tipping points" that we can uncover?

The answers might give us the insights we need to introduce effective changes needed so in 10 years time we are not asking the same questions.

Gauld is currently on loan @ Setubal in Portugal

[pontius pilate]

I would like to see outsiders come in to run out game people with no affiliation to the old firm and grab it by the balls. Increase the top league to 16 teams the starting 11 has to consist of at least 5 homegrown players and have 2 u21 players in the match day squad and bring back a max foreigner rule. Play and train the same way at international level from u17- full squad. More funding for indoor and outdoor training centres. I'll for shot down for some of these points so tin hat firmly on

[Dr Jimmy]

From what I have seen of kids football 12 and under over the last 5 years I will be amazed if we ever get any better.

Far too many dads involved "coaching" and re-living their youth through the kids. Too much emphasis on winning and scoring as many goals as possible. I know that may sound daft, but when a team finds a way to score (long ball over the top to the faster kid etc) what is that teaching the kids and how is it developing their technique positional sense and understanding of the game. Winning 15-0 seems to please these "coaches" so they can tell their mates in the pub. It truely is pathetic at times.
We need proper coaches who actually develop players rather than bark orders from the sides. The time for winning should come after technique etc has been instilled in them.

[Iain G]

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Well he's Scottish and currently out of a job. But so too (as far as I know) are Jimmy Calderwood, Jackie McNamara, Malky McKay, Paul Lambert and John Hughes. All of them every bit as gash as Collins. None of them better than Strachan (and that's a low bar).

I think he could and would do a better job than Strachan, more tactically aware and would get a younger scottish team playing for him. hell get Lambert on the coaching staff, lots of good european experience between them to improve out lot

[Cod Boy]

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From what I have seen of kids football 12 and under over the last 5 years I will be amazed if we ever get any better.

Far too many dads involved "coaching" and re-living their youth through the kids. Too much emphasis on winning and scoring as many goals as possible. I know that may sound daft, but when a team finds a way to score (long ball over the top to the faster kid etc) what is that teaching the kids and how is it developing their technique positional sense and understanding of the game. Winning 15-0 seems to please these "coaches" so they can tell their mates in the pub. It truely is pathetic at times.
We need proper coaches who actually develop players rather than bark orders from the sides. The time for winning should come after technique etc has been instilled in them.

Well said 100% agree.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I listened to the end of an interview with Kevin Gallagher on Talk Sport this afternoon ...... He was defending Strachan and saying its not his fault because Scotland is a small country and just doesn't have the quality of player to do well in qualifying rounds any more. No wonder we are struggling if that's the attitude coming from people who allegedly know the game.

That nonsense maybe stacks up when you put us up against the likes of Germany or at a stretch even the likes of Sweden or Austria with populations of around 10 million ..... but how does it form an excuse when we cant beat Lithuania with a population of less than 3 million where the biggest sport is Basketball, or a country like Slovakia with a population roughly the same as ours. It should also be pointed out that compared to a lot of European countries of a similar size we have a professional football league with crowds most of them can only dream of, Slovakia are at the planning stage of a new national stadium which will have a capacity only 2,000 more than Easter Road.

The fact that we seem unable to produce players capable of beating countries of a similar size at football and national managers incapable of out thinking their opponents has to be addressed .... We have a bigger and better background in professional football than practically any country in Europe and yet they are leaving us standing, including a country the size of Edinburgh.

If you ask me the place to start is not to look at Scotland, but to look at England ...... they hoover up some of our best players before they have had a chance to kick a ball in anger for a Scottish club and leave half of them to stagnate, also more and more we are giving caps to players with Scottish grannies who have probably never even been to Scotland ...... that would be fine if it was improving the Scottish national team, but it isn't ... look at the English national team, they are rubbish and they have the pick of the best English players in English football. If they cant put together a decent team from the best players produced by the English system then what makes us think having half of our team produced by or playing in that same system is going to do us any good?

The same goes for managers .... the best British manager in English football over the last 30 years was a product of Scottish football, not English football. How many products of the English football system currently manage English premier league clubs? six I think it is currently and its usually less than that. The argument might be there that the EPL attracts players and managers from all over the world edging out all but the very best English managers and players, but that being true why are there next to no English players or managers working in European football who have been squeezed out at home?

What about Northern Ireland, Wales and the Republic of Ireland whose players all come from the English system? ...... what about them, in reality their records in qualifying are worse or barely better than ours.

I suppose the point I'm making is that its not just the Scottish football system that's hurting our national team, its the English one as well, which is as bad at producing international class players as ours is ..... we have two problems here, one is to find a way for Scottish football to produce better players and the other one is to find a way to keep these better players from going to England far too early to be ruined by it and to find a way that means a player isn't considered international class just because he has kicked a ball in England's top two divisions and that includes guys who are considered Scotland team contenders because their granny was from Inverness.

[greenpaper55]

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The league set up here is all wrong also, even though Celtic and Rangers were the top 2 clubs in Scotland, there was always a few clubs capable of challenging them back in the 60-70's. Hearts, Hibs, Dundee U and Aberdeen all produced decent teams with players who went on to bigger things down south but the SFA played around with our leagues and made sure the 2 ugly sisters from the west would get the lions share of any monies brought into Scottish football, thus keeping us all poor and unable to challenge them for titles or cups on a regular basis. This has to be the 1st thing addressed, get a competitive league set up again and make sure the money brought in is shared between all the clubs fairly.

Spot on, that and that we bring in players from abroad even in our league rather than play youth, you can have the best league in the world but if you neglect the young players then you are asking for trouble-just that is happening to England right now as well.

[Unseen work]

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From what I have seen of kids football 12 and under over the last 5 years I will be amazed if we ever get any better.

Far too many dads involved "coaching" and re-living their youth through the kids. Too much emphasis on winning and scoring as many goals as possible. I know that may sound daft, but when a team finds a way to score (long ball over the top to the faster kid etc) what is that teaching the kids and how is it developing their technique positional sense and understanding of the game. Winning 15-0 seems to please these "coaches" so they can tell their mates in the pub. It truely is pathetic at times.
We need proper coaches who actually develop players rather than bark orders from the sides. The time for winning should come after technique etc has been instilled in them.

100%

In addition to this there are far too many coaches wanting to punish players after a poor performance at youth level from 13s-19s

If a juvenile team is training once a week and lose the Saturday it should be go in and train on the ball, make them more comfortable and confident.

Instead you get coaches thinking "nah, what they need is a beasting" and make them run for a hour and a half with no balls involved whatsoever.

Juvenile should be focussing on the fundamentals, constantly repeating your basic drills and technique.

Once they get older that's when you bring them into more match like environments and a proper coaching aspect in terms of positioning and tactics.

The main thing is there is a severe lack of coaches out there that have the knowledge or experience of drills to do with kids or instructions to give them. The few that do don't explain to the kids why they are doing it and the benefit of it, which confuses the kid.

[Scouse Hibee]

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I listened to the end of an interview with Kevin Gallagher on Talk Sport this afternoon ...... He was defending Strachan and saying its not his fault because Scotland is a small country and just doesn't have the quality of player to do well in qualifying rounds any more. No wonder we are struggling if that's the attitude coming from people who allegedly know the game.

That nonsense maybe stacks up when you put us up against the likes of Germany or at a stretch even the likes of Sweden or Austria with populations of around 10 million ..... but how does it form an excuse when we cant beat Lithuania with a population of less than 3 million where the biggest sport is Basketball, or a country like Slovakia with a population roughly the same as ours. It should also be pointed out that compared to a lot of European countries of a similar size we have a professional football league with crowds most of them can only dream of, Slovakia are at the planning stage of a new national stadium which will have a capacity only 2,000 more than Easter Road.

The fact that we seem unable to produce players capable of beating countries of a similar size at football and national managers incapable of out thinking their opponents has to be addressed .... We have a bigger and better background in professional football than practically any country in Europe and yet they are leaving us standing, including a country the size of Edinburgh.

If you ask me the place to start is not to look at Scotland, but to look at England ...... they hoover up some of our best players before they have had a chance to kick a ball in anger for a Scottish club and leave half of them to stagnate, also more and more we are giving caps to players with Scottish grannies who have probably never even been to Scotland ...... that would be fine if it was improving the Scottish national team, but it isn't ... look at the English national team, they are rubbish and they have the pick of the best English players in English football. If they cant put together a decent team from the best players produced by the English system then what makes us think having half of our team produced by or playing in that same system is going to do us any good?

The same goes for managers .... the best British manager in English football over the last 30 years was a product of Scottish football, not English football. How many products of the English football system currently manage English premier league clubs? six I think it is currently and its usually less than that. The argument might be there that the EPL attracts players and managers from all over the world edging out all but the very best English managers and players, but that being true why are there next to no English players or managers working in European football who have been squeezed out at home?

What about Northern Ireland, Wales and the Republic of Ireland whose players all come from the English system? ...... what about them, in reality their records in qualifying are worse or barely better than ours.

I suppose the point I'm making is that its not just the Scottish football system that's hurting our national team, its the English one as well, which is as bad at producing international class players as ours is ..... we have two problems here, one is to find a way for Scottish football to produce better players and the other one is to find a way to keep these better players from going to England far too early to be ruined by it and to find a way that means a player isn't considered international class just because he has kicked a ball in England's top two divisions and that includes guys who are considered Scotland team contenders because their granny was from Inverness.

Great post,you raise some very valid points. One thing that puzzles and I know we can all have different opinions to the manager over selections. Strachan seems to ignore the form players and even pick players that have hardly appeared let alone shown decent form over those that have.

I was mainly watching England last night so never actually saw much of Scotland's game so despite the scoreline were they that bad or did they it implode after conceding?

England were at times run ragged and have Hart to thank for keeping it goalless on at least three occasions with three top saves. England are indeed in a poor state internationally, some folk just haven't really woken up to that yet as qualification nearly always saves the day regardless of performance in finals.

Other nations are not slowly closing the gap,they are on our shoulder already.

[Unseen work]

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I listened to the end of an interview with Kevin Gallagher on Talk Sport this afternoon ...... He was defending Strachan and saying its not his fault because Scotland is a small country and just doesn't have the quality of player to do well in qualifying rounds any more. No wonder we are struggling if that's the attitude coming from people who allegedly know the game.

That nonsense maybe stacks up when you put us up against the likes of Germany or at a stretch even the likes of Sweden or Austria with populations of around 10 million ..... but how does it form an excuse when we cant beat Lithuania with a population of less than 3 million where the biggest sport is Basketball, or a country like Slovakia with a population roughly the same as ours. It should also be pointed out that compared to a lot of European countries of a similar size we have a professional football league with crowds most of them can only dream of, Slovakia are at the planning stage of a new national stadium which will have a capacity only 2,000 more than Easter Road.

The fact that we seem unable to produce players capable of beating countries of a similar size at football and national managers incapable of out thinking their opponents has to be addressed .... We have a bigger and better background in professional football than practically any country in Europe and yet they are leaving us standing, including a country the size of Edinburgh.

If you ask me the place to start is not to look at Scotland, but to look at England ...... they hoover up some of our best players before they have had a chance to kick a ball in anger for a Scottish club and leave half of them to stagnate, also more and more we are giving caps to players with Scottish grannies who have probably never even been to Scotland ...... that would be fine if it was improving the Scottish national team, but it isn't ... look at the English national team, they are rubbish and they have the pick of the best English players in English football. If they cant put together a decent team from the best players produced by the English system then what makes us think having half of our team produced by or playing in that same system is going to do us any good?

The same goes for managers .... the best British manager in English football over the last 30 years was a product of Scottish football, not English football. How many products of the English football system currently manage English premier league clubs? six I think it is currently and its usually less than that. The argument might be there that the EPL attracts players and managers from all over the world edging out all but the very best English managers and players, but that being true why are there next to no English players or managers working in European football who have been squeezed out at home?

What about Northern Ireland, Wales and the Republic of Ireland whose players all come from the English system? ...... what about them, in reality their records in qualifying are worse or barely better than ours.

I suppose the point I'm making is that its not just the Scottish football system that's hurting our national team, its the English one as well, which is as bad at producing international class players as ours is ..... we have two problems here, one is to find a way for Scottish football to produce better players and the other one is to find a way to keep these better players from going to England far too early to be ruined by it and to find a way that means a player isn't considered international class just because he has kicked a ball in England's top two divisions and that includes guys who are considered Scotland team contenders because their granny was from Inverness.

I think as a nation our managers are too stubborn and think if a player is at a championship/premiership side in England that he must play and is better than everyone else.

Teams that have done better than us of late have players that I would bet wouldn't be near our squad.

Niall Mcginn, Michael McGovern and josh Magennis at Northern Ireland are 3 examples. All players in the spl up until the summer.

Fillip Kiss came on against us last night, he was at Ross county up till last year.

Adam Rooney and Danny Rodgers getting a call up for the ROI.

All the players I have mentioned wouldn't get a call up for Scotland imo.

We have guys like Cummings, McGinn, Graeme Shinnie, Paul Hanlon. Even guys like John Souttarr, Danny Wilson or mark Reynolds for god sake

I'm not saying all of them should get a call up, but let's play the guys in form regardless of who they are at. It's time to bed the younger players in for the future.

Our centre halfs are useless, Darren fletcher is past it and our strikers bar Griffiths are very poor.

I find it extremely harsh Graeme Shinnie has not been given a chance as for me he is a standout every game I see

[Carheenlea]

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Replace Strachan with John Collins

I've long thought that International football may be a better managerial fit for Collins.

[SonOfDavidFrancey]

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I've long thought that International football may be a better managerial fit for Collins.

Ewan Murray arguing that they should go for o'neill, or at least try. His assistant is a scot it seems.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

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Whoever comes in to replace Strachan has got to show more balls in their selection. Last night Griffiths and Mcginn did more than Fletcher and Snodgrass in their 15 minute cameos than either of those 2. If Mcginn can put in a MOTM performance against whoever it was on his debut then why cant he be trusted to start against Slovakia when it matters? Surely he is a better option than Darren Fletcher who is a substitute waiting to happen. Also, why was Oli Burke dropped? He is much better option than Matt ****ing Ritchie and is at least a young, raw Scottish talent compared to a guy who is hardly a world beater in English football?

Come on. Are you seriously a suggesting a guy playing ok for a scottish lower league team should play ahead of a guy playing well in the premiership?

[Bostonhibby]

Scrap the SFA and merge with England to create a partially British football team that might be able to compete with Wales?

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[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

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The league set up here is all wrong also, even though Celtic and Rangers were the top 2 clubs in Scotland, there was always a few clubs capable of challenging them back in the 60-70's. Hearts, Hibs, Dundee U and Aberdeen all produced decent teams with players who went on to bigger things down south but the SFA played around with our leagues and made sure the 2 ugly sisters from the west would get the lions share of any monies brought into Scottish football, thus keeping us all poor and unable to challenge them for titles or cups on a regular basis. This has to be the 1st thing addressed, get a competitive league set up again and make sure the money brought in is shared between all the clubs fairly.

Wad chatting with some mates last nigt, and we thought that one of the problems was that young players develop to a point, get a big move to old firm and then plateau as they have 'made it' - i think they could well be holding players back.

We also thought we are hampered because few pkayers go abroad, whereas teams like slovakia, Ireland, wales will have most of their players raised in top footballing countries.

And as kato said above, we still dont value tactics, brain power and technique over brawn and heart, and us fans are part of that problem.

I still remember fans sitting in front of me screaming at stokes last season because he 's##t out' of a challenge woth some hammr thower defender.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

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From what I have seen of kids football 12 and under over the last 5 years I will be amazed if we ever get any better.

Far too many dads involved "coaching" and re-living their youth through the kids. Too much emphasis on winning and scoring as many goals as possible. I know that may sound daft, but when a team finds a way to score (long ball over the top to the faster kid etc) what is that teaching the kids and how is it developing their technique positional sense and understanding of the game. Winning 15-0 seems to please these "coaches" so they can tell their mates in the pub. It truely is pathetic at times.
We need proper coaches who actually develop players rather than bark orders from the sides. The time for winning should come after technique etc has been instilled in them.

Couldnt agree more. We dont teach kids technique, we dont cherish tactics and brain power.

[mjhibby]

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From what I have seen of kids football 12 and under over the last 5 years I will be amazed if we ever get any better.

Far too many dads involved "coaching" and re-living their youth through the kids. Too much emphasis on winning and scoring as many goals as possible. I know that may sound daft, but when a team finds a way to score (long ball over the top to the faster kid etc) what is that teaching the kids and how is it developing their technique positional sense and understanding of the game. Winning 15-0 seems to please these "coaches" so they can tell their mates in the pub. It truely is pathetic at times.
We need proper coaches who actually develop players rather than bark orders from the sides. The time for winning should come after technique etc has been instilled in them.

The problem is the coaches who want to develop kids technical skills,game awareness and teamwork are looked upon as luxuries for a team when the real coaches teach fitness,how to stop the other team and indeed the quick ball to the fast striker or winger who then creates/ score the goal. Plus kids are not patient enough to wait for the right moment to play the killer pass and want to score with every attack. It's so depressing and frustrating to see good coaches packing in as the kids carry on doing what the Neanderthal coaches tell them. Can't see it changing any time soon.