Tornadoes question

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I am not old enough to have seen them, so i wondered if anyone could help me with some questions. I was reading tom wright's book and two things struck me -

Firstly how blooming frustrating it is that they didnt win more. Apparently we were third favourites behind leeds utd and ac milan to win the cup winners cup!

Secondly, i have always heard it said that it was never the same after 72/73 yet their best two league finishes came after this 'peak' (consecutive 2nd places) - so what happened there? Was it a case of the opposition weakening?

[G B Young]

They were unlucky to peak at the same time Celtic were in the middle of their 9-in-a-row era. Otherwise they might well have won a league title and another cup final or two. Rangers were always beatable at that time.

Celtic's decline (if you can call it that) didn't really start until Hibs had also weakened with the break-up of the classic Tornadoes line-up. The majority of Hibs fans who watched the team then point to the arrival of Joe Harper as the end of an era. Great striker who did score a lot of goals, but it meant the end of the very popular Gordon/O'Rourke pairing up front which yielded a phenomenal amount of goals. Many of the Tornadoes team have since said they felt Eddie Turnbull broke up the team too soon having decided after we blew a great chance to get to the semi-final of the Cup Winners Cup that we weren't strong enough.

Another factor was John Brownlie breaking his leg the week after the 7-0 game. Coupled with a long suspension for Alex Edwards it definitely affected our hopes of winning the title that season.

Nevertheless, we remained a club which competed at the top end of the table for a few more years and at the time you refer to it was unthinkable that we would find ourselves relegated at the end of the decade.

[Sammy7nil]

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They were unlucky to peak at the same time Celtic were in the middle of their 9-in-a-row era. Otherwise they might well have won a league title and another cup final or two. Rangers were always beatable at that time.

Celtic's decline (if you can call it that) didn't really start until Hibs had also weakened with the break-up of the classic Tornadoes line-up. The majority of Hibs fans who watched the team then point to the arrival of Joe Harper as the end of an era. Great striker who did score a lot of goals, but it meant the end of the very popular Gordon/O'Rourke pairing up front which yielded a phenomenal amount of goals. Many of the Tornadoes team have since said they felt Eddie Turnbull broke up the team too soon having decided after we blew a great chance to get to the semi-final of the Cup Winners Cup that we weren't strong enough.

Another factor was John Brownlie breaking his leg the week after the 7-0 game. Coupled with a long suspension for Alex Edwards it definitely affected our hopes of winning the title that season.

Nevertheless, we remained a club which competed at the top end of the table for a few more years and at the time you refer to it was unthinkable that we would find ourselves relegated at the end of the decade.

That about sums it up very good summary cant argue with any of it.

[brog]

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They were unlucky to peak at the same time Celtic were in the middle of their 9-in-a-row era. Otherwise they might well have won a league title and another cup final or two. Rangers were always beatable at that time.

Celtic's decline (if you can call it that) didn't really start until Hibs had also weakened with the break-up of the classic Tornadoes line-up. The majority of Hibs fans who watched the team then point to the arrival of Joe Harper as the end of an era. Great striker who did score a lot of goals, but it meant the end of the very popular Gordon/O'Rourke pairing up front which yielded a phenomenal amount of goals. Many of the Tornadoes team have since said they felt Eddie Turnbull broke up the team too soon having decided after we blew a great chance to get to the semi-final of the Cup Winners Cup that we weren't strong enough.

Another factor was John Brownlie breaking his leg the week after the 7-0 game. Coupled with a long suspension for Alex Edwards it definitely affected our hopes of winning the title that season.

Nevertheless, we remained a club which competed at the top end of the table for a few more years and at the time you refer to it was unthinkable that we would find ourselves

relegated at the end of the decade.

A very good summary. Although many of the Celtc European cup winning team had gone by 1972, McNeill & Johnstone both played in the LC final. In addition younger players such as Dalglish, Macari, Hay, Connelly & McGrain had stepped up. A measure of how good Hibs were was shown by Stein playing Jimmy Johnstone on the left in a ( vain ) attempt to curb Brownlie's attacking play. For all we celebrated in May this year, December 1972 was as much of a milestone in that it was our 1st cup of any kind in 70 years & it was our first trophy win at Hampden! A wonderful team.

[Bostonhibby]

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They were unlucky to peak at the same time Celtic were in the middle of their 9-in-a-row era. Otherwise they might well have won a league title and another cup final or two. Rangers were always beatable at that time.

Celtic's decline (if you can call it that) didn't really start until Hibs had also weakened with the break-up of the classic Tornadoes line-up. The majority of Hibs fans who watched the team then point to the arrival of Joe Harper as the end of an era. Great striker who did score a lot of goals, but it meant the end of the very popular Gordon/O'Rourke pairing up front which yielded a phenomenal amount of goals. Many of the Tornadoes team have since said they felt Eddie Turnbull broke up the team too soon having decided after we blew a great chance to get to the semi-final of the Cup Winners Cup that we weren't strong enough.

Another factor was John Brownlie breaking his leg the week after the 7-0 game. Coupled with a long suspension for Alex Edwards it definitely affected our hopes of winning the title that season.

Nevertheless, we remained a club which competed at the top end of the table for a few more years and at the time you refer to it was unthinkable that we would find ourselves relegated at the end of the decade.

Right on the money I'd say

We had some great European nights and generally ran rings round the now defunct version of Glasgow rangers in those days too.

Sent from my HTC One mini 2 using Tapatalk

[scoopyboy]

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I am not old enough to have seen them, so i wondered if anyone could help me with some questions. I was reading tom wright's book and two things struck me -

Firstly how blooming frustrating it is that they didnt win more. Apparently we were third favourites behind leeds utd and ac milan to win the cup winners cup!

Secondly, i have always heard it said that it was never the same after 72/73 yet their best two league finishes came after this 'peak' (consecutive 2nd places) - so what happened there? Was it a case of the opposition weakening?

The Tornadoes didn't actually play all that long as a team.

For example Alan Gordon arrived in January 1972 and departed in November 1974.

Jimmy O'Rourke left in May 1974.

When people speak about the Turnbull Tornadoes they inevitably think of the O'Rourke Gordon partnership, they played less than 2 and a half seasons together.

Mind you what a two and a half seasons it was.

[BSEJVT]

Cant multi quote but the posts from GBYoung, Brog & Scoopyboy are all bang on the money

Wonderful wonderful team and a great period to watch Hibs in.

The only downside being that very few games, let alone teams have ever lived up to the absolute joy of watching the Tornadoes in full flow and that has made the last 40 odd years hard viewing at times.

[houstonhibbee]

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The Tornadoes didn't actually play all that long as a team.

For example Alan Gordon arrived in January 1972 and departed in November 1974.

Jimmy O'Rourke left in May 1974.

When people speak about the Turnbull Tornadoes they inevitably think of the O'Rourke Gordon partnership, they played less than 2 and a half seasons together.

Mind you what a two and a half seasons it was.

Did someone on here not say that the tornados actually only played 22 times as a team?

[scoopyboy]

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Did someone on here not say that the tornados actually only played 22 times as a team?

It's possible, I thought it might have been more.

If we are talking about the exact same team that won the League Cup and beat Hearts 7-0 then that could well be right.

John Brownlie broke his leg the game after 7-0 which meant him and Alan Gordon were teammates for less than a calendar year.

Alex Edwards served a long suspension not long afterwards so it would all add up.

[Onion]

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They were unlucky to peak at the same time Celtic were in the middle of their 9-in-a-row era. Otherwise they might well have won a league title and another cup final or two. Rangers were always beatable at that time.

Celtic's decline (if you can call it that) didn't really start until Hibs had also weakened with the break-up of the classic Tornadoes line-up. The majority of Hibs fans who watched the team then point to the arrival of Joe Harper as the end of an era. Great striker who did score a lot of goals, but it meant the end of the very popular Gordon/O'Rourke pairing up front which yielded a phenomenal amount of goals. Many of the Tornadoes team have since said they felt Eddie Turnbull broke up the team too soon having decided after we blew a great chance to get to the semi-final of the Cup Winners Cup that we weren't strong enough.

Another factor was John Brownlie breaking his leg the week after the 7-0 game. Coupled with a long suspension for Alex Edwards it definitely affected our hopes of winning the title that season.

Nevertheless, we remained a club which competed at the top end of the table for a few more years and at the time you refer to it was unthinkable that we would find ourselves relegated at the end of the decade.

Yip, good sum up. Folk forget just how good a team Celtic had in the early 70's (European Cup Finalists in 1970), and were the only reason Hibs didn't win much more.

[Earlydelivery]

An absolute fantastic side only bettered by a great Celtic side that frequently went to latter stages of European cup , I'm sure joe Harper's debut was at Falkirk and at that time you could hop on special buses from St. Andrews sq bus station (which I did ) brockville was rammed to rafters I personally think that was the end off the tornadoes when Jimmy left for him but for me the tornadoes were the greatest Scottish side ever , never to win a championship what fantastic memories they gave me as a very young teenager

[Tom Hart RIP]

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Did someone on here not say that the tornados actually only played 22 times as a team?

I'm believe they played 22, won 19 drew 2 and only list 1 which was the 2-1 home leg against Sporting Lisbon.
Never played together after East Fife game.
Would have loved to see more trophies but it was their brand of football that made them special.

[Smiggy 7-0]

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I am not old enough to have seen them, so i wondered if anyone could help me with some questions. I was reading tom wright's book and two things struck me -

Firstly how blooming frustrating it is that they didnt win more. Apparently we were third favourites behind leeds utd and ac milan to win the cup winners cup!

Secondly, i have always heard it said that it was never the same after 72/73 yet their best two league finishes came after this 'peak' (consecutive 2nd places) - so what happened there? Was it a case of the opposition weakening?

Best Hibs team think I will ever see as we feared NOBODY and went out expecting to win every game, and mostly did. Would agree with other posters the arrival of Harper (even though he scored many a goal) was the end. Was at the corner old east/shed when JB broke his leg, where you clearly heard it happen even though it happened at the other end of the west (ouch).
TORNADOES v FAMOUS FIVE years, my late dad and I could never agree who were all round better. For me it was TORNADOES, for him it was FAMOUS FIVE (I wasn't alive to see the five so can't comment).
Difference being, FF won more. But I will never change my mind.

[houstonhibbee]

Turnballs Tornadoes in my mind refers to 11 players (plus John Hazel as the sub) rather than an era

These 11 players played together from pre 1972 SCF which we lost (but didn't include cropley who was injured?) until the East Fife game in early Jan 1973 when they were top of the league. During that period they broke all kinds of scoring records including the LCF win but fell away towards the end of 72-73 season due to aforementioned injuries and suspensions - including losing 3-0 in Split in the CWC QF second which put us out - and was the catalyst that led Turnbull to dismantle that team in an attempt to make it better

Paradoxically he changed the forwards rather than the defense (1-6 to Celtic) and should have strengthened CH and GK rather than forward line.............

[snooky]

The reason TT's didn't win more was lack of cover in key positions.
Alex Edwards was suspended a lot mainly due to teams goading him and playing on his firey temper. (He never got the protection he deserved)
Joe Harper was brought in but despite his scoring record, his persona never 'fitted in'. (He was the Hibs' Yoko Ono)
Although a decent CH, Jim Black always seemed to have a mare against Dixie Dean's which didn't help.
Onion's broken leg (I heard the crack too) was probably the moment the Tornados ironically broke up as well.
Paddy says that Turnbull upped the training when they went top of the league and this overstressed the players. Who am I to argue with either of those Hibs legends?

For me, what made the Tornados great was the individual skills and the variety of the mix that all blended into one.

They were the best team I've ever seen and I feel honoured that I was one of the thousands of fans that experienced their magic. Thank you, lads

[Dashing Bob S]

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Yip, good sum up. Folk forget just how good a team Celtic had in the early 70's (European Cup Finalists in 1970), and were the only reason Hibs didn't win much more.

The real difference was Stein. Turnbull had as good, if not better players than Celtic. He was at least as astute tactically. But Hibs players would never play for him like Celtic, Hibs or Dunfermline players did for Stein. Turnbull was too gruff and dogmatic with the players. He was feared, but Stein was loved.

Turnbull had a few victories against him, first at Hibs then at A'deen, but could never get past him at either.

[MM19]

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I'm believe they played 22, won 19 drew 2 and only list 1 which was the 2-1 home leg against Sporting Lisbon.
Never played together after East Fife game.
Would have loved to see more trophies but it was their brand of football that made them special.

They lost the away leg against Sporting Lisbon and won the home leg 6-1. It was 1-1 at half time. It was another brilliant European night though there seemed to be quite a lot of them.

[snooky]

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I'm believe they played 22, won 19 drew 2 and only list 1 which was the 2-1 home leg against Sporting Lisbon.
Never played together after East Fife game.
Would have loved to see more trophies but it was their brand of football that made them special.

Oddly enough, I think it was Jimmy O'R that said the Sporting Lisbon away result was Hibs best result in Europe despite losing by one goal. Hibs did play really well that night.

[cmcd]

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Turnballs Tornadoes in my mind refers to 11 players (plus John Hazel as the sub) rather than an era

These 11 players played together from pre 1972 SCF which we lost (but didn't include cropley who was injured?) until the East Fife game in early Jan 1973 when they were top of the league. During that period they broke all kinds of scoring records including the LCF win but fell away towards the end of 72-73 season due to aforementioned injuries and suspensions - including losing 3-0 in Split in the CWC QF second which put us out - and was the catalyst that led Turnbull to dismantle that team in an attempt to make it better

Paradoxically he changed the forwards rather than the defense (1-6 to Celtic) and should have strengthened CH and GK rather than forward line.............

I agree the loss of Brownlie was crucial but Edwards long suspension was also . I also agree that Turnbull broke the team up too early .Gordon and Jim Orourke were scoring for fun so why change a striker when it was a Centre back we needed .As much as I liked ET he made some strange decisions latterly

[snooky]

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They lost the away leg against Sporting Lisbon and won the home leg 6-1. It was 1-1 at half time. It was another brilliant European night though there seemed to be quite a lot of them.

Aye, playing doon the slope second half!

[Kato]

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He was at least as astute tactically.

Turnbull was miles ahead of Stein tactically. Bobby Murdoch and Bertie Auld were the main architects of Celtics tactics back then, Stein being almost fully a "man-manager". Not a coincidence that as soon as Stein was given the Scotland job he brought Turnbull in as his assistant.

[AndyM_1875]

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Turnbull was miles ahead of Stein tactically. Bobby Murdoch and Bertie Auld were the main architects of Celtics tactics back then, Stein being almost fully a "man-manager". Not a coincidence that as soon as Stein was given the Scotland job he brought Turnbull in as his assistant.

Stein was a genius at delegation though. He used Turnbull as an assistant and also grabbed Alex Ferguson later on in his Scotland career. He also used a young coach called Andy Roxburgh and identified him as a future Scotland manager.

Anyway.. back on topic...

[MM19]

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Aye, playing doon the slope second half!

It always seemed to be playing doon the slope that they were brilliant

[Ray_]

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Turnballs Tornadoes in my mind refers to 11 players (plus John Hamilton as the sub) rather than an era

These 11 players played together from pre 1972 SCF which we lost (but didn't include cropley who was injured?) until the East Fife game in early Jan 1973 when they were top of the league. During that period they broke all kinds of scoring records including the LCF win but fell away towards the end of 72-73 season due to aforementioned injuries and suspensions - including losing 3-0 in Split in the CWC QF second which put us out - and was the catalyst that led Turnbull to dismantle that team in an attempt to make it better

Paradoxically he changed the forwards rather than the defense (1-6 to Celtic) and should have strengthened CH and GK rather than forward line.............

We had no depth at all, Johnny Hamilton was the usual sub & was surprisingly released after the 72/3 season, when he joined Rangers on a free. John Hazel was another, but often a target for the boo boys. John Hazel scored a great goal against Hearts on the way to the 1971 semi & the follow year, when Hibs again played in the semi, he had a superb game playing centre forward playing against der hun, but on the whole, he wasn't good enough, left to join Morton [I think] and then just faded out of things.

Ned was too stubborn with little man management skills, hooking Alex Edwards [when he was a little "under the weather"] instead of the "arm around the shoulder" at half time, when we were leading Celtic at parkhead, with wee mickey running the show was an example of that. This game was two weeks to the day after the 72 league cup final and celtic had their noses in front of us in the league at this time. With mickey hooked, we lost control of the game and this cost us a point and gave our rivals one as well. It is well documented that the 7-0 put us top of the league, but it was the 5ft goal that put us top [goal difference] and celtic had a game in hand, so not getting the full points at parkhead, a week or so before the derby, at the time was a big thing.

Once Onion broke his leg, five days after the derby slaughter, our next game was against Dundee United, in Dundee, we had already pumped them 5-1 there in the league cup and with Des Bremner [recently signed from the highland league] making his debut in Onions position, we were beaten and from then until the end of the season, we'd have the odd renaissance's [scottish cup games against der hun] extremely unluckily beaten by a goal three yards offside, after we had pummeled them for 90 minutes in the ER replay.

Those performances like against rangers were too few and far between and by the time we came to our our final game, a vastly inferior rangers had overtaken us in the league. The last game that season was at ER against celtic, with the likes of Bobby Smith playing and celtic went off with a very easy 3-0 victory.

The following two season's, Hibs were back to their inconsistent best [even although they finished both season's second]. Given the quality of the players Hibs had, they could beat celtic and rangers again in holding on to the Drybrough and play the best team down south, off the park, in both legs, but they totally lacked the consistency to keep up those high levels of performance [during season 73/4]. The following season was much the same, beating rangers home and away in the league cup and getting 11 goals taken off us by celtic over two games in a fortnight during that autumn.

[Kato]

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Stein was a genius at delegation though.

Without doubt. Stein's genius was getting the best out of everyone's talents.

[Ray_]

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Turnbull was miles ahead of Stein tactically. Bobby Murdoch and Bertie Auld were the main architects of Celtics tactics back then, Stein being almost fully a "man-manager". Not a coincidence that as soon as Stein was given the Scotland job he brought Turnbull in as his assistant.

Auld joined Hibs the same time as Turnbull did in July 71, their debut against Boro was the famous Nobby Stiles V Bertie Auld, in which Stiles was carried off after an attempt at going in late against the then hibs midfielder, Bertie was too canny for him, rode the tackle and made sure he done some damage on the way down. :)

[greenpaper55]

As a previous poster mentioned Jim Black was the weak link in the team at the back But Turnbull stuck by him when everyone could see we needed better, only when the team was in decline did he sign George Stewart but it was two seasons to late. Turnbull also played John Hazel in some big games but to many he just was not up to the standard that we needed but Ned was a stubborn man who took no criticism, there was also no love lost between Stanton and Turnbull but give Pat his due it never stopped him giving his all for the team. Having said all that when they were at their best they were a joy to watch and played football of such a high standard that even after all these years no Hibs team has come close to playing like they did.

[Cheshire Hibby]

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The reason TT's didn't win more was lack of cover in key positions.
Alex Edwards was suspended a lot mainly due to teams goading him and playing on his firey temper. (He never got the protection he deserved)
Joe Harper was brought in but despite his scoring record, his persona never 'fitted in'. (He was the Hibs' Yoko Ono)
Although a decent CH, Jim Black always seemed to have a mare against Dixie Dean's which didn't help.
Onion's broken leg (I heard the crack too) was probably the moment the Tornados ironically broke up as well.
Paddy says that Turnbull upped the training when they went top of the league and this overstressed the players. Who am I to argue with either of those Hibs legends?

For me, what made the Tornados great was the individual skills and the variety of the mix that all blended into one.

They were the best team I've ever seen and I feel honoured that I was one of the thousands of fans that experienced their magic. Thank you, lads

I agree. They were the best Hibs team, I have seen but we are talking about the first eleven only. Looking back, the squad lacked depth. We had, Johnny Hamilton and John Hazel but I cannot recall many others. Johnny Hamilton's goal in around 10 seconds at Falkirk is a strong memory of the era as is the LC win in December 72 and of course 01/01/73. European nights were brilliant and I remember feeling we were good enough to go to the ECWC Final. Hadjuk Split put us out, signalling the end of the Tornadoes. I was a teenager in the Dunbar Road end when my hero of the time, John Brownlie had his leg broken. The whole ground heard the bone break. Alex Edwards suspension coupled with Brownlies absence really weakened the right side of the team and stopped our challenge to Celtic.

Like the post above, it was this team that started my now 45 years of Hibernian support and I too feel privleged to have seen them. Simply fantastic football.

I hope that in 45 years time, young fans of today who have seen our beloved Hibernian win the Scottish Cup will look back to that win as the end of a dire period and the start of the third great Hibernian era. GGTTH

[killie-hibby]

While at their peak a Tornadoes match was shown on Match of the Day.While summarising,Jimmy Hill expressed an opinion that both Hibs and Celtic be invited to join the English league.Yes,at that time,both teams were at least equal to the top English clubs.
Don't know if MOTD was broadcast to Scotland at that time.If it was I hope management and supporters of the club formerly known as Rangers were watching and listening.
Are any netters aware if any other Scottish league game has been shown on MOTD?

[ancient hibee]

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A very good summary. Although many of the Celtc European cup winning team had gone by 1972, McNeill & Johnstone both played in the LC final. In addition younger players such as Dalglish, Macari, Hay, Connelly & McGrain had stepped up. A measure of how good Hibs were was shown by Stein playing Jimmy Johnstone on the left in a ( vain ) attempt to curb Brownlie's attacking play. For all we celebrated in May this year, December 1972 was as much of a milestone in that it was our 1st cup of any kind in 70 years & it was our first trophy win at Hampden! A wonderful team.

What a boob that was by Stein.The minute I saw Johnstone on the left I knew we would win because he'd made it obvious he was afraid of our attacking triangle down the right.Never known Celtic to do something like that.As it was they got away with a 2-1 when it could easily have been 5 or 6.
Convinced that if George Stewart had been signed 2/3 seasons earlier we would have won the league.Jim Black was sound but regularly got taken to the cleaners by Deans.