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  1. #2251
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    There's a good post by one of the admins on the main board about how 'debate' in social media and on increasingly 'old-fashioned' message boards like this one tends to be dominated by those for whom unwelcome opinions must be shut down (with a smattering of abuse often thrown in) rather than constructively engaged with. I was put in mind of that while watching Panorama last night and thinking, as you say, how similar Labour's approach to their anti-Semitism crisis has been.
    What's an "unwelcome opinion" in your view? Something you don't particularly agree with?

    I have to say, i'm not really surprised to see the posters I am on here, pushing the "Corbyn is anti-semite" narrative. As it's the same posters who didn't want him as leader of the Labour Party to begin with.

    It's easy to believe in a narrative with next to no factual basis, if it suits your own agenda. What's harder is to challenge a narrative, even when it doesn't.


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  3. #2252
    First Team Regular GORDONSMITH7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    I didn't see any tears on last night's programme, faked or genuine, which kind of enhanced my respect for those who spoke out. To compare them to that twat above is poor stuff IMHO.

    You appear to have some expertise in TV production values judging by your comments and if so then maybe you're better placed to judge the programme than me. However, I'm only expressing my opinion about what I watched and not expecting you to agree with it if you saw things differently. I get the impression, though, that what comes across as your boiling fury towards the BBC and, to a slightly lesser extent, the state of Israel (and possibly Jews as a whole judging by your more recent posts), means that the programme was flawed in your eyes from the off.
    This was the most biased Anti Corbyn and Labour Party attempt so far. The anchor guy with microphone opposite the disaffected ex employees were not challenged

    once with counter evidence or critical analysis. They mentioned Jackie Walker as black activist, expelled from the Labour Party, it clearly never suited the agenda to say black,JEWISH activist. Which supports Williams statement. He said.....

    What did Chris Williamson actually say at the meeting in question.......well this.....however the above folk who know nowt will echo he said anti semetic things cause I was told so and listened to that. So there, must ne true.

    ďThe party that has done more to stand up to racism is now being demonised as a racist, bigoted party.

    ďI have got to say I think our partyís response has been partly responsible for that because in my opinionÖ we have backed off too much, we have given too much gr


    ound, we have been too apologetic.Ē

    A position as a Labour Party member for 50 years totally support. Anti Semitic my arse. Being pro a Palestinian State and opposing the apartheid Israel government, has bizarrely now morphed into being Anti Semetic.
    This with other manufatured attacks are for one reason and one reason only, and that that is to prevent the election of a new Government committed to re distribution of wealth, nationalisation of the pathetic railways and utilities etc.

    Watch this space. If there is a suggestion of a possible left coalition between the LP and SNP in Parliament the same vile attack will be lauched by the UK Establishment and their kept rubbish media on Sturgeon, et al, which will make the project fear before the Scottish Referendum look like childs play, though I suspect the likes of Machiavellian Blairite Tom Watson would be involved.
    There are Blairite MP's who would rather see a Tory Goverment than a left wing one with Socialist policies.

    BIG G
    Last edited by GORDONSMITH7; 11-07-2019 at 04:28 PM.

  4. #2253
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    That wink at the end there is anti-semitism.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #2254
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    That wink at the end there is anti-semitism.


    Is it the lack of a nose? I have nothing against large noses. Being the proud owner of an aquiline nose myself.

  6. #2255
    First Team Regular GORDONSMITH7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    That wink at the end there is anti-semitism.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Bomber says..... Is Williamson MP anti Semitic by this quote Oz lad. Auf Wiedersehen Pet.

    BIG G

  7. #2256
    First Team Regular GORDONSMITH7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    Of course, this is someone with no agenda at all.

    It's not like she's eyeing up the prize of leadership or anything.

    Of course amigo. The role of Deputy Leader is to support the Leader of the Party according to the Party Constitution. Hehas done everything at evry turn to oppose the Leader. Disgraceful. The three pronged attacks have been non stop every day for 4 years since his democratic election by the Telegraph, Mail, Express, the ****,BBC and Sky News. The vitreol does not stop there the so called left Guardian
    And Independent have been disgraceful. Oh well why should I expect less?

    Attack two, Blairite MPs who put public letters against
    Corbyn supporter Williamson. The rump of Blairite opportunists, who have tried 2 Chicken Coups and defeated by members like me who arnae taken by thier crap.

    All the time, retired in 2009 and been able to see this ***** going on from the guys election.
    No mention of the letter from promonent Jews to the
    Guardian askingfor Williamson to be reinstate.

    Complaints next day from the British Board of Jewery. Tbe Guardian withdrew it and when I accessed it...nowt, nowt, nowt..Democracy at work in UK.
    .

  8. #2257
    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    Labour's reaction to the programme sums up its failure to deal with this problem. They have, as I heard someone say earlier, simply continued to attack the messenger rather than confront the message. The 'nothing to see here' nature of the responses they sent to Panorama smack of an ongoing bid to simply shut the conversation down. To dismiss those who showed the courage to speak out as nothing more than embittered former employees shows a sneering lack of interest in truly engaging with an issue that has dogged the party for Corbyn's entire tenure. Those whose testimonies we heard certainly didn't come across as ex-staffers with an axe to grind. As I mentioned earlier in the thread a number of them actually came in to work for Labour under Corbyn, yet they clearly became appalled by what they'd bought into and stated their case on Panorama with genuine sincerity and emotion.

    It's to be hoped that while Labour will do their best to diminish the programme, the ongoing statutory investigation by the Equality and Human Rights Commission will have the power to access the kind of information the BBC could not and ensure that the poisonous culture within a party that was once a welcoming home for Jewish people is fully exposed.
    An update on that:

    https://twitter.com/JewishLabour/sta...27973146923009

    Just another 30 or so liars in the eyes of the Labour leadership I imagine...

  9. #2258
    Coaching Staff heretoday's Avatar
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    There's no anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and that's a fact. Criticism of Israel does not imply anti-Semitic views. it's just common sense and decency.

    I'd be more suspicious of the Tories when it comes to anti-Semitism to be honest.

  10. #2259
    Quote Originally Posted by heretoday View Post
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    There's no anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and that's a fact. Criticism of Israel does not imply anti-Semitic views. it's just common sense and decency.

    I'd be more suspicious of the Tories when it comes to anti-Semitism to be honest.
    If it's a fact then I guess it's case closed! You could have spared the EHRC all the hassle of their investigation if you'd brought this to light earlier

    More seriously, I think it's fair to say that the nature of the complaints which have prompted this investigation go beyond simply disagreeing with Jeremy Corbyn's criticism of Israel. A culture where Jewish members feel unwelcome in their own party is something that clearly needs addressed in a more effective manner than Labour currently appear to be deploying.

  11. #2260
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heretoday View Post
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    There's no anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and that's a fact. Criticism of Israel does not imply anti-Semitic views. it's just common sense and decency.

    I'd be more suspicious of the Tories when it comes to anti-Semitism to be honest.
    You're correct. It makes absolutely no sense for Labour to be "anti-Jewish". It's just convenient to fool the masses into believing that their leader is, as he isn't a member of the inner circle who effectively do all of the thinking for us.


  12. #2261
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    More seriously, I think it's fair to say that the nature of the complaints which have prompted this investigation go beyond simply disagreeing with Jeremy Corbyn's criticism of Israel.
    Does it? Because every day, more and more links are being drawn between those complaining and their connections with the Israeli state. There's vested interests at play here. The policies of the Labour Party don't sit well with Israel. That much is clear.

  13. #2262
    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    Does it? Because every day, more and more links are being drawn between those complaining and their connections with the Israeli state. There's vested interests at play here. The policies of the Labour Party don't sit well with Israel. That much is clear.
    But it's well wide of the mark to say it's a 'fact' that Labour doesn't have an issue with anti-Semitism. Corbyn himself was compelled to admit it almost a year ago (describing it as 'a real problem'), while Formby and McDonnell, to name just two from among his inner circle, have acknowledged as much in recent weeks:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...m-labour-party

    The watchdog investigation is not so much concerned with whether the issue exists within the Labour party but how they have responded to it.

  14. #2263
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heretoday View Post
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    There's no anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and that's a fact. Criticism of Israel does not imply anti-Semitic views. it's just common sense and decency.

    I'd be more suspicious of the Tories when it comes to anti-Semitism to be honest.
    I cant agree with that.

    Long before the state of Israel was even close to coming into existence, Labour had a murky history of portraying Jews as imperialists, capitalists and warmongerers intent on fostering conflict to reap vast profits. Even Keir Hardie had form for it.

    I can’t remember which poster it is but there’s at least one who bangs on about the Rothschilds and that’s very much part of that trope.

    While that highly-visible anti-semitism has faded to some extent, there are still clear stereotypes and labelling going on, take Corbyn’s comments about not understanding irony as an example.

    There is obviously a lot of anger against the state of Israel and its behaviour towards Palestinians. In many respects it resembles the anger against apartheid in South Africa.

    That anger or hatred does go beyond the actions of Israel the state however and does creep into anti-semitism and no one seems to deny that, and Corbyn et al simply say “Nothing to do with me, guv”.

    The EHRC are using statutory powers to carry out their own investigation, something they don’t do lightly. There’s no way that would be happening if there weren’t credible and sufficient grounds to hold the Labour Party to account.
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  15. #2264
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    My personal favourite is the one with the mural of fat cat bankers with a monopoly board on the backs of the impoverished and how Corbyn is "anti-semitic" because he gave the artist credit for their work.

    The claim? The bankers were given large crooked noses, so must therefore be an example of Jewish followers. Because you know.... all and only Jewish followers have large crooked noses. Making that association isn't anti semite at all.....

    Good thing to. Because The Simpsons would be getting sued left, right and centre for their portrayal of Mr Burns.


  16. #2266
    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    My personal favourite is the one with the mural of fat cat bankers with a monopoly board on the backs of the impoverished and how Corbyn is "anti-semitic" because he gave the artist credit for their work.

    The claim? The bankers were given large crooked noses, so must therefore be an example of Jewish followers. Because you know.... all and only Jewish followers have large crooked noses. Making that association isn't anti semite at all.....

    Good thing to. Because The Simpsons would be getting sued left, right and centre for their portrayal of Mr Burns.
    Corbyn subsequently apologised for backing the mural and said: "I sincerely regret I did not look more closely at the image I was commenting on, the contents of which are deeply disturbing and anti-Semitic. The defence of free speech cannot be used as a justification for the promotion of anti-Semitism."

    The artist himself confirmed that the mural was intended to portray Jewish bankers.

    The mocking stance you continue to take on this issue does nothing to deflect from the opinion expressed by others that you harbour anti-Jewish views yourself.

  17. #2267
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    My personal favourite is the one with the mural of fat cat bankers with a monopoly board on the backs of the impoverished and how Corbyn is "anti-semitic" because he gave the artist credit for their work.

    The claim? The bankers were given large crooked noses, so must therefore be an example of Jewish followers. Because you know.... all and only Jewish followers have large crooked noses. Making that association isn't anti semite at all.....

    Good thing to. Because The Simpsons would be getting sued left, right and centre for their portrayal of Mr Burns.
    Your view of what constitutes anti-Semitic imagery seems to be at odds with that of Corbyn himself . For the record I donít think he is anti Semitic at all.
    Shifting the definition of it as you are doing here doesnít put you in the clear though. It achieves the opposite.
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  18. #2268
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    I don't think Corbyn has a bigoted, racist or anti-semitic bone in his body.

    For someone in such a prominent position I think his use of language can be careless, and I think he is too slow on the uptake at inticipating situations that can potentially cast both him and his party in a bad light. It's all very well being about substance over style but much to do with modern politics is to do with media manipulation, spin and appearances. He is nowhere near streetwise enough when it comes to the darker arts of politics and whilst to many this might seem like it is a good thing, it can make him seem weak, dithery, incompetent and now racist/ anti-semitic to some. This is a very bad thing for this country, who are crying out for a competent Labour Party to wrest back control from this dreadful Tory government.

  19. #2269
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    Corbyn subsequently apologised for backing the mural and said: "I sincerely regret I did not look more closely at the image I was commenting on, the contents of which are deeply disturbing and anti-Semitic. The defence of free speech cannot be used as a justification for the promotion of anti-Semitism."

    The artist himself confirmed that the mural was intended to portray Jewish bankers.

    The mocking stance you continue to take on this issue does nothing to deflect from the opinion expressed by others that you harbour anti-Jewish views yourself.
    Of course he apologised. Because he would have been absolutely hounded by the media had he reacted any differently. The reason he didn't associate the image with anti-semitism, is because he isn't anti-semitic. Only an anti-semitic person would assume that all Jewish followers look that way.

  20. #2270
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    Your view of what constitutes anti-Semitic imagery seems to be at odds with that of Corbyn himself . For the record I donít think he is anti Semitic at all.
    Shifting the definition of it as you are doing here doesnít put you in the clear though. It achieves the opposite.
    Why, because he apologised? What else was he going to say without being skewered by our state media?

  21. #2271
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    I don't think Corbyn has a bigoted, racist or anti-semitic bone in his body.

    For someone in such a prominent position I think his use of language can be careless, and I think he is too slow on the uptake at inticipating situations that can potentially cast both him and his party in a bad light. It's all very well being about substance over style but much to do with modern politics is to do with media manipulation, spin and appearances. He is nowhere near streetwise enough when it comes to the darker arts of politics and whilst to many this might seem like it is a good thing, it can make him seem weak, dithery, incompetent and now racist/ anti-semitic to some. This is a very bad thing for this country, who are crying out for a competent Labour Party to wrest back control from this dreadful Tory government.
    I would agree with most of that. However, the problem with the more "streetwise" politicians is that they almost always turn out to be an "in it for themselves" disaster for the country.

    The issue isn't Corbyn. It's the media culture in this country that pretty much ensures that there can never be any real alternative in place. They'll flame anyone who offers any glimmer of hope of making real actual changes.

  22. #2272
    @hibs.net private member Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    I don't think Corbyn has a bigoted, racist or anti-semitic bone in his body.

    For someone in such a prominent position I think his use of language can be careless, and I think he is too slow on the uptake at inticipating situations that can potentially cast both him and his party in a bad light. It's all very well being about substance over style but much to do with modern politics is to do with media manipulation, spin and appearances. He is nowhere near streetwise enough when it comes to the darker arts of politics and whilst to many this might seem like it is a good thing, it can make him seem weak, dithery, incompetent and now racist/ anti-semitic to some. This is a very bad thing for this country, who are crying out for a competent Labour Party to wrest back control from this dreadful Tory government.
    I keep hearing this but Iím not convinced. It could also be argued that things like media manipulation, spin and the dark arts are now becoming less important as we enter a new age where social media is king. How else could we explain how someone with no style whatsoever has increased Labour membership and votes in the face of such relentless media and establishment hostility? Surely substance is now a factor.
    Of the total votes won by a theoretical centrist, media friendly Labour Party, how many would be lost from present voters who would once again become hacked off with politics? All weíve really had as realistic choices for the past 30 years is slick people in suits who present different versions of the same neoliberal, market led solution...because thatís the way it is and the only way it can be.
    I believe politics is in a state of flux right now and itís difficult to tell what will happen. We can point to history but that can be misleading in this day and age. The next general election will be interesting to say the least.

  23. #2273
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    I keep hearing this but Iím not convinced. It could also be argued that things like media manipulation, spin and the dark arts are now becoming less important as we enter a new age where social media is king. How else could we explain how someone with no style whatsoever has increased Labour membership and votes in the face of such relentless media and establishment hostility? Surely substance is now a factor.
    Of the total votes won by a theoretical centrist, media friendly Labour Party, how many would be lost from present voters who would once again become hacked off with politics? All weíve really had as realistic choices for the past 30 years is slick people in suits who present different versions of the same neoliberal, market led solution...because thatís the way it is and the only way it can be.
    I believe politics is in a state of flux right now and itís difficult to tell what will happen. We can point to history but that can be misleading in this day and age. The next general election will be interesting to say the least.
    I'm not suggesting that he has to sell out altogether and pretend to be something that he is not.

    The media re unlikely to be friendly to him, if they're not going to do him any favours then he needs to do himself a few more - he makes it all too easy to paint him as an IRA sympathiser, anti-semitic or any other number of slurs which blight his cause and case.

    The two main issues that have blighted the Labour party in recent years have been Brexit and the anti-semitism scandal. He has been far to slow on the uptake to recognise that Brexit represent opportunity every bit as much as threat to the Labour Party, if only he could have made a decisive standpoint earlier. The anti-semitism scandal is farcical and it should never, ever have been allowed to develop into something as harmful - what Corbyn is guilty as sin of is allowing escalation of a matter that should have been snuffed out immediately.

  24. #2274
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    I'm not suggesting that he has to sell out altogether and pretend to be something that he is not.

    The media re unlikely to be friendly to him, if they're not going to do him any favours then he needs to do himself a few more - he makes it all too easy to paint him as an IRA sympathiser, anti-semitic or any other number of slurs which blight his cause and case.

    The two main issues that have blighted the Labour party in recent years have been Brexit and the anti-semitism scandal. He has been far to slow on the uptake to recognise that Brexit represent opportunity every bit as much as threat to the Labour Party, if only he could have made a decisive standpoint earlier. The anti-semitism scandal is farcical and it should never, ever have been allowed to develop into something as harmful - what Corbyn is guilty as sin of is allowing escalation of a matter that should have been snuffed out immediately.
    What could Corbyn have possibly done to snuff it out? He can't force MSM outlets to abandon a narrative that they're fixated on. He has already came out and said that neither him or the party are anti-semitic. What else can he do? There are clearly people in the party who want to empty him out. The same people who never wanted him in and they're prepared to give the media as much ammo as necessary to ensure that it happens.

    Honestly, I commend the guy for hanging in there. If he was really so weak, he'd have been long gone.

  25. #2275
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    Why, because he apologised? What else was he going to say without being skewered by our state media?
    He apologised because he realised the image was anti -Semitic and unlike you he isnít anti-semitic.
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  26. #2276
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    He apologised because he realised the image was anti -Semitic and unlike you he isnít anti-semitic.
    In what way is the image anti-Semitic? I didn't see jewish symbolism anywhere on that image. Unless of course, you believe all jewish people have long crooked noses, which seems a little anti-Semitic to me.

  27. #2277
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    In what way is the image anti-Semitic? I didn't see jewish symbolism anywhere on that image. Unless of course, you believe all jewish people have long crooked noses, which seems a little anti-Semitic to me.
    Donít try any twist it round. Iíve seen the same argument used to deny golliwogs are racist.
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  28. #2278
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    Don’t try any twist it round. I’ve seen the same argument used to deny golliwogs are racist.
    Why shouldn't I twist it around when it quite clearly can be?

    Tell me, why do you think jewish people all have big crooked noses?

    Comparing it to the golliwog argument won't work either. Religion and race are two different things. There's no reason for all Jewish people to share similar physical features that can be exaggerated.

  29. #2279
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    Why shouldn't I twist it around when it quite clearly can be?

    Tell me, why do you think jewish people all have big crooked noses?
    Where did I say I that? Sad stuff again from you.
    Most reasonable people, including Corbyn himself, would see it as anti-Semitic. Throughout this thread you have demonstrated a complete ignorance of what that is.
    Every gimmick hungry yob,
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    He'll die before he's sold.

  30. #2280
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    Where did I say I that? Sad stuff again from you.
    Most reasonable people, including Corbyn himself, would see it as anti-Semitic. Throughout this thread you have demonstrated a complete ignorance of what that is.
    Corbyn didn't see it as anti-Semitic. He gave a stock apology for the media when the true anti-semites came out and associated an image with rich fat cat bankers with large crooked noses with the Jewish faith. A comparison that Corbyn just wasn't anti-semitic enough to notice.

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