Do we really need a Youth Policy?

[MB62]

I've been thinking about this for a couple of years now but this close season has just got me asking 'Why are we continually spending money on a youth policy when very few, if any, come through and we just end up signing players from other clubs'?

It's not a wind BTW, it's a serious question.

I have no idea how much the club spends on bringing young players to the club and trying to bring them through our system, ready eventually for first team appearances.
Whatever it is, our success rate of recent years has been all but non existent and the 'big' hopes for this season, Handling, Stanton & Harris have all apparently been told to find themselves another club.
Along with this, we seem to be 'cherry picking' players of a similar age from other clubs, players that we are obviously looking at playing a contributing role in the first team squad for the coming season and not just be sitting on the bench because we need young guys there by the rules.

I know we all like to see our own coming through, but if they are not coming through, then there is a big waste of time and money spent on these guys that could maybe be used better elsewhere.

I'm also a big believer in the fact that clubs DO NOT build for the future as far as the team is concerned. Everything is done for the PRESENT not the next year or year after as nobody knows who is going to be at the club in 6 months time never mind a year or two. We didn't go in to last season to build a team to win the league this season, nor will be building a team now for next year. The squad Stubbs is putting together is to try and win the league this coming season, or if not, to get promoted through the play offs.
On that, if Stubbs does put together a league winning team, then the chances are he will not be with us next season and a new team will have to built again, as happens every year, by most clubs I may add.

It's obviously a controversial thought/opinion and no doubt there will be plenty names get banded about about who has come through recently, Jordon Forster for one. Maybe this is just a frustration about our lack of lads making the step up but if we are now signing young players from other clubs, why bother spending money on our youth system?

[matty_f]

I think this is a great topic, and a very relevant question.

IIRC there are a few SPFL Premiership clubs that dont' really have a youth policy of note, their resources are focused solely on the first team and getting results there. It's an approach that clearly suits them.

IMHO, though, that approach shirks responsibility for the game in Scotland, and for the young players that Scotland could produce if teams operated a good youth policy.

I think it is essential for a club like ours to have a stand out youth policy. If you look at our squad last season, we had Stevenson, Hanlon, Forster, Handling and (to a lesser extent because we picked him up late) Cummings, all had come from our youth team. That's a good return, we also had Stanton on the periphery of the first team.

Have we been as successful as we could have been with the youths? No, I don't think so. I think we have identified that the youth set up wasn't what it could or should be, and have taken steps to address that. Hibs have said that they want to be the club of choice for the best talent in the surrounding area, and beyond that.

The value in bringing through your own players is significant when it works. Look at the difference to the club following the sales of Brown, Thomson, Whittaker,and Fletcher. We grew the club by modernising the stadium and building the training centre. You can obviously point to the fact that we're in the Championship as a counter to that, but I'd say we're in the Championship despite those things, not because of them.

The other thing that is a benefit from bringing through your own players is that you can help embed a culture at the club where you have players that have been brought up to understand the scale and values of the club, so when you bring other players in they have a benchmark. I think we lost that for a long time with a huge churn of players since the days of the Golden Generation.

A badly run youth set up is of no value, and you probably would be better just directing the funds straight to the first team and hope you get lucky with one or two players coming through a token youth set up.

However, a well run youth set up brings prestige to the club, enhances the reputation, brings a level of community and social responsibility, helps the Scottish game, and brings much needed revenue into the club. Getting it right is absolutely key though.

[NAE NOOKIE]

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I think this is a great topic, and a very relevant question.

IIRC there are a few SPFL Premiership clubs that dont' really have a youth policy of note, their resources are focused solely on the first team and getting results there. It's an approach that clearly suits them.

IMHO, though, that approach shirks responsibility for the game in Scotland, and for the young players that Scotland could produce if teams operated a good youth policy.

I think it is essential for a club like ours to have a stand out youth policy. If you look at our squad last season, we had Stevenson, Hanlon, Forster, Handling and (to a lesser extent because we picked him up late) Cummings, all had come from our youth team. That's a good return, we also had Stanton on the periphery of the first team.

Have we been as successful as we could have been with the youths? No, I don't think so. I think we have identified that the youth set up wasn't what it could or should be, and have taken steps to address that. Hibs have said that they want to be the club of choice for the best talent in the surrounding area, and beyond that.

The value in bringing through your own players is significant when it works. Look at the difference to the club following the sales of Brown, Thomson, Whittaker,and Fletcher. We grew the club by modernising the stadium and building the training centre. You can obviously point to the fact that we're in the Championship as a counter to that, but I'd say we're in the Championship despite those things, not because of them.

The other thing that is a benefit from bringing through your own players is that you can help embed a culture at the club where you have players that have been brought up to understand the scale and values of the club, so when you bring other players in they have a benchmark. I think we lost that for a long time with a huge churn of players since the days of the Golden Generation.

A badly run youth set up is of no value, and you probably would be better just directing the funds straight to the first team and hope you get lucky with one or two players coming through a token youth set up.

However, a well run youth set up brings prestige to the club, enhances the reputation, brings a level of community and social responsibility, helps the Scottish game, and brings much needed revenue into the club. Getting it right is absolutely key though.

This

[MyJo]

I think we do need a youth system its just that it has been woefully mismanaged over the last 10 or so years along with the rest of the club, and while the odd player or two made the break through after the golden generation they have been nowhere near the quality of Riordan, O'Conner, Brown, Thomson, Whittaker or Fletcher and have either found their level playing for hibs like Hanlon and Stevenson or haven't developed enough and ended up being shipped out rather than being sold on to bigger clubs for a profit which is surely the aim of the youth system of a club our size.

The problem has been the focus on hibs as a business IMO, too much empahasis on how much money we could make if we developed players and sold them thinking that it would be enough to get a player through the youth ranks and chuck them in the first team and wait for the offers to come in but the step from under-19 level to the first team has proven to be massive and a hurdle too far for many promising players who have fallen by the way-side.

The new structure at the club sounds like it should address a lot of these issues with a much better range of coaching and education at youth level and a focus on developing players to first team standard rather than developing them to under-19 level then chucking them into the first team and leaving it up to the manager to deal with, but this is going to take a few years before we really start to see any benefits from this.

[JimBHibees]

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I think this is a great topic, and a very relevant question.

IIRC there are a few SPFL Premiership clubs that dont' really have a youth policy of note, their resources are focused solely on the first team and getting results there. It's an approach that clearly suits them.

IMHO, though, that approach shirks responsibility for the game in Scotland, and for the young players that Scotland could produce if teams operated a good youth policy.

I think it is essential for a club like ours to have a stand out youth policy. If you look at our squad last season, we had Stevenson, Hanlon, Forster, Handling and (to a lesser extent because we picked him up late) Cummings, all had come from our youth team. That's a good return, we also had Stanton on the periphery of the first team.

Have we been as successful as we could have been with the youths? No, I don't think so. I think we have identified that the youth set up wasn't what it could or should be, and have taken steps to address that. Hibs have said that they want to be the club of choice for the best talent in the surrounding area, and beyond that.

The value in bringing through your own players is significant when it works. Look at the difference to the club following the sales of Brown, Thomson, Whittaker,and Fletcher. We grew the club by modernising the stadium and building the training centre. You can obviously point to the fact that we're in the Championship as a counter to that, but I'd say we're in the Championship despite those things, not because of them.

The other thing that is a benefit from bringing through your own players is that you can help embed a culture at the club where you have players that have been brought up to understand the scale and values of the club, so when you bring other players in they have a benchmark. I think we lost that for a long time with a huge churn of players since the days of the Golden Generation.

A badly run youth set up is of no value, and you probably would be better just directing the funds straight to the first team and hope you get lucky with one or two players coming through a token youth set up.

However, a well run youth set up brings prestige to the club, enhances the reputation, brings a level of community and social responsibility, helps the Scottish game, and brings much needed revenue into the club. Getting it right is absolutely key though.

Agree entirely and wouldn't underplay the social responsibility to the overall game in this small country. We are one of the bigger clubs and should be developing players and people who can have successful careers in the game or sport or whatever. They may not all play for Hibs but some will while others will likely move on to better or smaller clubs dependent on how good we are. There appears to have been a number of pretty iffy managerial decisions who havent really focussed much of the benefits of a successful youth policy.

We have the right man in place now who has experience at a much higher level than Hibs in terms of youth development and he has been allowed to properly staff the Academy with the right sort of quality and people to ensure it is not ignored again.

For a club the size of Hibs it is imperative we bring through excellent young players. For anyone thinking otherwise the recent Sky interview with Brown/Fletcher and Whitty shows how important it is.

[Bad Martini]

So, I think we're all agreed. A youth system is braw. If it works

For the first time ever, I used less words than aw of youse and sucinctly got to the point

In all seriousness, who would invoke a youth policy that doesny work on purpose though?

...sarcasim aside, if we fix it, they will come....or something.

[MB62]

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I think this is a great topic, and a very relevant question.

IIRC there are a few SPFL Premiership clubs that dont' really have a youth policy of note, their resources are focused solely on the first team and getting results there. It's an approach that clearly suits them.

IMHO, though, that approach shirks responsibility for the game in Scotland, and for the young players that Scotland could produce if teams operated a good youth policy.

I think it is essential for a club like ours to have a stand out youth policy. If you look at our squad last season, we had Stevenson, Hanlon, Forster, Handling and (to a lesser extent because we picked him up late) Cummings, all had come from our youth team. That's a good return, we also had Stanton on the periphery of the first team.

Have we been as successful as we could have been with the youths? No, I don't think so. I think we have identified that the youth set up wasn't what it could or should be, and have taken steps to address that. Hibs have said that they want to be the club of choice for the best talent in the surrounding area, and beyond that.

The value in bringing through your own players is significant when it works. Look at the difference to the club following the sales of Brown, Thomson, Whittaker,and Fletcher. We grew the club by modernising the stadium and building the training centre. You can obviously point to the fact that we're in the Championship as a counter to that, but I'd say we're in the Championship despite those things, not because of them.

The other thing that is a benefit from bringing through your own players is that you can help embed a culture at the club where you have players that have been brought up to understand the scale and values of the club, so when you bring other players in they have a benchmark. I think we lost that for a long time with a huge churn of players since the days of the Golden Generation.

A badly run youth set up is of no value, and you probably would be better just directing the funds straight to the first team and hope you get lucky with one or two players coming through a token youth set up.

However, a well run youth set up brings prestige to the club, enhances the reputation, brings a level of community and social responsibility, helps the Scottish game, and brings much needed revenue into the club. Getting it right is absolutely key though.

You make some very good points Matty and I tend to agree with your response, especially about shirking our responsibility to the game, in fact I couldn't argue against anything you said.
I do feel though that we maybe need to look at the whole youth set up we have and decide exactly what we want out of it as a club. Are we looking at this as being the best for Hibernian F.C. or as a sense of responsibility to the game in general?
Presently, I'm not convince that what we get out of it is worth what we are putting in.

[matty_f]

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You make some very good points Matty and I tend to agree with your response, especially about shirking our responsibility to the game, in fact I couldn't argue against anything you said.
I do feel though that we maybe need to look at the whole youth set up we have and decide exactly what we want out of it as a club. Are we looking at this as being the best for Hibernian F.C. or as a sense of responsibility to the game in general?
Presently, I'm not convince that what we get out of it is worth what we are putting in.

I think for the present set up, it'll take a couple of years before we start seeing any real difference to the output. The changes have only just been made so they'll take time to produce results.

[Brightside]

Didn't the youth system pay for the stand? we may not have had much through recently but i think that is being addressed under Eddie.

[MB62]

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I think for the present set up, it'll take a couple of years before we start seeing any real difference to the output. The changes have only just been made so they'll take time to produce results.

But how long have we been saying that Matty? Every manager comes in and seems to change the youth set up because the previous one hasn't been working (and every manager, it seems, has failed).
In two years time, Stubbs will not be Hibs manager, he will either have been headhunted by some club down south or be sacked by Hibs for not producing the goods. Then another manager comes in and will probably want to change it again and it will be another two years before we see the benefit of that one, and on it goes, meaning we never see any benefit.
I know this is going against the grain of the positivity of the moment, I actually feel very positive about things myself believe it or not, but I just feel we might be better spending money on signing individual players we need/want from other clubs than spending it on 20 or so (I have no idea how many youth players we have on our books) in the hope that eventually one or other makes the grade.

If I thought Stubbs was going to be our manager in 5 years time, I would possibly not be raising the question as I think he knows what is required, having working with the Toffees youth, but there is no chance of that happening and it will be back to square one.

[lord bunberry]

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So, I think we're all agreed. A youth system is braw. If it works

For the first time ever, I used less words than aw of youse and sucinctly got to the point

In all seriousness, who would invoke a youth policy that doesny work on purpose though?

...sarcasim aside, if we fix it, they will come....or something.

That's exactly it though, if it's an effective youth policy and its done properly it should pay for itself. The last few years it's been badly run and ineffective, therefore a waste of money. Everything about the youth policy should be geared towards getting players ready for the first team, winning leagues and cups is great, but it's not the most important thing.

[matty_f]

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But how long have we been saying that Matty? Every manager comes in and seems to change the youth set up because the previous one hasn't been working (and every manager, it seems, has failed).
In two years time, Stubbs will not be Hibs manager, he will either have been headhunted by some club down south or be sacked by Hibs for not producing the goods. Then another manager comes in and will probably want to change it again and it will be another two years before we see the benefit of that one, and on it goes, meaning we never see any benefit.
I know this is going against the grain of the positivity of the moment, I actually feel very positive about things myself believe it or not, but I just feel we might be better spending money on signing individual players we need/want from other clubs than spending it on 20 or so (I have no idea how many youth players we have on our books) in the hope that eventually one or other makes the grade.

If I thought Stubbs was going to be our manager in 5 years time, I would possibly not be raising the question as I think he knows what is required, having working with the Toffees youth, but there is no chance of that happening and it will be back to square one.

The last few managers haven't been allowed to do anything with the youth policy, as far as I'm aware.

The way it's set up now, IIRC, is that it wouldn't matter who the manager is, the youth set up is protected and set up in line with the overall football strategy of the club, which again, is protected from the changes in managers.

I agree that the youth set up wasn't as effective as it should have been though.

[Sammy7nil]

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I think this is a great topic, and a very relevant question.

IIRC there are a few SPFL Premiership clubs that dont' really have a youth policy of note, their resources are focused solely on the first team and getting results there. It's an approach that clearly suits them.

IMHO, though, that approach shirks responsibility for the game in Scotland, and for the young players that Scotland could produce if teams operated a good youth policy.

I think it is essential for a club like ours to have a stand out youth policy. If you look at our squad last season, we had Stevenson, Hanlon, Forster, Handling and (to a lesser extent because we picked him up late) Cummings, all had come from our youth team. That's a good return, we also had Stanton on the periphery of the first team.

Have we been as successful as we could have been with the youths? No, I don't think so. I think we have identified that the youth set up wasn't what it could or should be, and have taken steps to address that. Hibs have said that they want to be the club of choice for the best talent in the surrounding area, and beyond that.

The value in bringing through your own players is significant when it works. Look at the difference to the club following the sales of Brown, Thomson, Whittaker,and Fletcher. We grew the club by modernising the stadium and building the training centre. You can obviously point to the fact that we're in the Championship as a counter to that, but I'd say we're in the Championship despite those things, not because of them.

The other thing that is a benefit from bringing through your own players is that you can help embed a culture at the club where you have players that have been brought up to understand the scale and values of the club, so when you bring other players in they have a benchmark. I think we lost that for a long time with a huge churn of players since the days of the Golden Generation.

A badly run youth set up is of no value, and you probably would be better just directing the funds straight to the first team and hope you get lucky with one or two players coming through a token youth set up.

However, a well run youth set up brings prestige to the club, enhances the reputation, brings a level of community and social responsibility, helps the Scottish game, and brings much needed revenue into the club. Getting it right is absolutely key though.

I am not having a go at all, but each of the players mentioned played their part in our relegation so hardly shinning examples. On the other hand Riordan, Murray, O'Connor, Brown, Thomson and Whittiker are all great examples. I suppose what we really need to know is how much does the youth set up cost year on year and what difference would the diversion of that investment make to the first team wage bill?

For what is worth I fully support the youth set up as I totally agree Hibs have a responsibility to play a full role in the local community and schools were possible.

[matty_f]

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I am not having a go at all, but each of the players mentioned played their part in our relegation so hardly shinning examples. On the other hand Riordan, Murray, O'Connor, Brown, Thomson and Whittiker are all great examples. I suppose what we really need to know is how much does the youth set up cost year on year and what difference would the diversion of that investment make to the first team wage bill?

For what is worth I fully support the youth set up as I totally agree Hibs have a responsibility to play a full role in the local community and schools were possible.

Some cracking players have been relegated with poor teams, I think Hanlon and Stevenson were good players in a bad team last season, so it's harsh to hold the relegation against them. I think if Hanlon hadn't been injured towards the end of last season that we'd have stayed up.

[MB62]

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The last few managers haven't been allowed to do anything with the youth policy, as far as I'm aware.

The way it's set up now, IIRC, is that it wouldn't matter who the manager is, the youth set up is protected and set up in line with the overall football strategy of the club, which again, is protected from the changes in managers.

I agree that the youth set up wasn't as effective as it should have been though.

That's interesting, I didn't know that.

[Andy74]

The quick answer is we need a better one than we've had. If it works it is worth the investment.

[Purple & Green]

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The last few managers haven't been allowed to do anything with the youth policy, as far as I'm aware.

The way it's set up now, IIRC, is that it wouldn't matter who the manager is, the youth set up is protected and set up in line with the overall football strategy of the club, which again, is protected from the changes in managers.

I agree that the youth set up wasn't as effective as it should have been though.

It's supposed to have been like that since Alex McLeish was involved nearly 20 years ago. I'd be interested in reading what our football strategy is, I guess its written down somewhere but it's obviously commercially sensitive so most fans would never see it.

To go back to the original point though, I'd guess a "youth set up" is possibly defined in our licensing conditions by the SFA.

[Sammy7nil]

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Some cracking players have been relegated with poor teams, I think Hanlon and Stevenson were good players in a bad team last season, so it's harsh to hold the relegation against them. I think if Hanlon hadn't been injured towards the end of last season that we'd have stayed up.

I don't disagree about Hanlon I think his injury played a major role in our rapid decline.
However both those players have been part of some very average Hibs teams over a number of years. If they were to be placed on the transfer list both would find clubs probably even in the SPFL but neither would attract a fee. That is the standard of player the policy has delivered over the past 7 - 8 years.

[Ozyhibby]

The club are just about to set up their own community club based at East Mains which is separate from the youth set up, so the club obviously feel that it's important to connect with youth football in Scotland.

[Smartie]

If you leave our current predicament to one side for a moment you would have to say that our ultimate aim is to be challenging at the top end of the premier league.

We aren't going to be able to buy a team capable of challenging the OF as their financial muscle will ultimately see us off (although I would like to see us do a better job of competing with Ross County and St Johnstone given our relative budget).

We might just be able to get in about them by bringing our own players through. If we were in a stronger financial position and brought through another golden generation then we'd have a good chance.

Well worth persevering with a youth set up imo, although I think it is far more about people than facilities. Having the best scouts finding the best young talent is more important than any fancy training centre or academy.

[matty_f]

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It's supposed to have been like that since Alex McLeish was involved nearly 20 years ago. I'd be interested in reading what our football strategy is, I guess its written down somewhere but it's obviously commercially sensitive so most fans would never see it.

To go back to the original point though, I'd guess a "youth set up" is possibly defined in our licensing conditions by the SFA.

I think the plan is George Craig's brief, we haven't had someone in his role prior to now, AFAIK.

[matty_f]

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If you leave our current predicament to one side for a moment you would have to say that our ultimate aim is to be challenging at the top end of the premier league.

We aren't going to be able to buy a team capable of challenging the OF as their financial muscle will ultimately see us off (although I would like to see us do a better job of competing with Ross County and St Johnstone given our relative budget).

We might just be able to get in about them by bringing our own players through. If we were in a stronger financial position and brought through another golden generation then we'd have a good chance.

Well worth persevering with a youth set up imo, although I think it is far more about people than facilities. Having the best scouts finding the best young talent is more important than any fancy training centre or academy.

Good post.

[Brightside]

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The club are just about to set up their own community club based at East Mains which is separate from the youth set up, so the club obviously feel that it's important to connect with youth football in Scotland.

?? What does this mean Oz? Setting up another club separate to the youth team? I don't understand this.....they already have links in place now with a load of the youth clubs in Edinburgh.

[Purple & Green]

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I think the plan is George Craig's brief, we haven't had someone in his role prior to now, AFAIK.

Craig is head of football operations, John Park was head of youth development but probably their roles had considerable overlap?

I suppose I think the problem is implementation rather than strategy, and you'd have to be pretty churlish to think Hibs don't try to implement to the best of their ability.

Which leads onto, if we are improving, and we are in the right direction what happens if our head of football operations leaves?

[matty_f]

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Craig is head of football operations, John Park was head of youth development but probably their roles had considerable overlap?

I suppose I think the problem is implementation rather than strategy, and you'd have to be pretty churlish to think Hibs don't try to implement to the best of their ability.

Which leads onto, if we are improving, and we are in the right direction what happens if our head of football operations leaves?

I think George Craig has overall responsibility now, AFAIK, he brought in Eddie May as Academy Coaching Manager, and Joe McBride as U20's Development Coach and they will be there to help implement George's strategy IMHO.

[Smartie]

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Craig is head of football operations, John Park was head of youth development but probably their roles had considerable overlap?

I suppose I think the problem is implementation rather than strategy, and you'd have to be pretty churlish to think Hibs don't try to implement to the best of their ability.

Which leads onto, if we are improving, and we are in the right direction what happens if our head of football operations leaves?

I think we are attempting to evolve into a position of strength where we can withstand any individual leaving. You find the best person for the job, put them in place and let it evolve from there without it having too unsettling an impact. To be honest, given the relative size of our club imo we should be expecting and hoping for people to leave. It means - generally - that they have been successful. What I really don't want is a "back to the drawing board" root and branch reorganisation every few years, or for it all to have to change very time we recruit a new manager (and that has been every year or so for donkeys).

What would be a disaster would be for us to lose Dempster who in turn wanted Stubbs and his back room staff, who wanted to take our best players and all of our youth development staff and the best youths etc etc. But that would be unlikely.

[Haymaker]

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?? What does this mean Oz? Setting up another club separate to the youth team? I don't understand this.....they already have links in place now with a load of the youth clubs in Edinburgh.

It could be a community club where players of talent can be looked after and monitored by our coaches easily but maybe arent quite good/strong/able to fit into the academy just yet.

[Brightside]

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It could be a community club where players of talent can be looked after and monitored by our coaches easily but maybe arent quite good/strong/able to fit into the academy just yet.

I hope not....that's the purpose of all the youth clubs. Really no need for Hibs to have another boys Community Club. That will only damage youth clubs.

[madhatter]

Yes - we need one.

[CockneyRebel]

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[/B]

I think we are attempting to evolve into a position of strength where we can withstand any individual leaving. You find the best person for the job, put them in place and let it evolve from there without it having too unsettling an impact. To be honest, given the relative size of our club imo we should be expecting and hoping for people to leave. It means - generally - that they have been successful. What I really don't want is a "back to the drawing board" root and branch reorganisation every few years, or for it all to have to change very time we recruit a new manager (and that has been every year or so for donkeys).

What would be a disaster would be for us to lose Dempster who in turn wanted Stubbs and his back room staff, who wanted to take our best players and all of our youth development staff and the best youths etc etc. But that would be unlikely.

I see where your'e coming from with having a structure that remains in place whenever anyone decides to leave. My only concern is that if/when AS goes he takes his pals with them. An incoming manager would usually come by himself or with an assistant yet we could possibly lose 3 or four staff in one go and it may not be that easy to install a team of comparable talent. If AS went off on his own then the structure just needs to replace him but if his team goes with him then it's much more difficult. Having said that I do feel that the "structure" is the best way forward and hope that our set up will attract the right calibre of applicant when necessary.