Ruthless with youngsters

[madhatter]

I'm glad to see we are becoming more ruthless with youngsters. I think Harris and Stanton might be gone. Some part of me would be happy if they stayed but I honestly don't think they've improved much since they broke through. Handling is in similar boat tbh. We've had a history of clinging on to youngsters hoping that one day they'll come good.

Obviously they might but by now I would have expected Harris to be tearing most defences a new one due to his pace and acceleration. I would've expected Stanton to be fitter and more physical. They both should be regulars by now.

[Andy74]

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I'm glad to see we are becoming more ruthless with youngsters. I think Harris and Stanton might be gone. Some part of me would be happy if they stayed but I honestly don't think they've improved much since they broke through. Handling is in similar boat tbh. We've had a history of clinging on to youngsters hoping that one day they'll come good.

Obviously they might but by now I would have expected Harris to be tearing most defences a new one due to his pace and acceleration. I would've expected Stanton to be fitter and more physical. They both should be regulars by now.

Yep, they all suffer similar issues well, good players technically but not strong enough and don't seem to have the mentality to play at a club of the size of Hibs. We can't keep players on the basis they might have a good game every month or so.

Hopefully this is being addressed through the academy. When you look at Hearts, no one really raves about the players in their youth teams yet they all go straight in to the first team and perform pretty well.

[Mikey09]

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I'm glad to see we are becoming more ruthless with youngsters. I think Harris and Stanton might be gone. Some part of me would be happy if they stayed but I honestly don't think they've improved much since they broke through. Handling is in similar boat tbh. We've had a history of clinging on to youngsters hoping that one day they'll come good.

Obviously they might but by now I would have expected Harris to be tearing most defences a new one due to his pace and acceleration. I would've expected Stanton to be fitter and more physical. They both should be regulars by now.

A wee bit harsh on Sam Stanton to be honest. Sam has generally done well when used his problem this season has been Allan, Fyvie, Robbo, McGeouch and Craig. All very good players. Handling is different. I think someone must bite the bullet and play him in a specific position as I honestly don't think we know what his best position is! Play him somewhere and stick to it. I've also said before Harris will come back and play a bigger part this season. I have faith in the boy.

[Ozyhibby]

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A wee bit harsh on Sam Stanton to be honest. Sam has generally done well when used his problem this season has been Allan, Fyvie, Robbo, McGeouch and Craig. All very good players. Handling is different. I think someone must bite the bullet and play him in a specific position as I honestly don't think we know what his best position is! Play him somewhere and stick to it. I've also said before Harris will come back and play a bigger part this season. I have faith in the boy.

We've just let Liam Craig go and he was keeping Stanton out the team. Fact is, he has not taken his chance.

[NAE NOOKIE]

It has to be said that Stanton, Harris and Handling have been around the first team for a while now without looking like becoming regulars. But all three of them have talent, so its a tough one for Hibs. I would love to see Stanton go out on loan, for me he is the one with the most potential.

Perhaps its because someone mentioned players needing to bulk up, but all of a sudden Graham Payne who played for Dundee Utd came to mind ... all the bulk of a pipe cleaner and impossible to knock off the ball, what a great wee player he was.

[J-C]

It has been mentioned on a good few threads that our main problem was the youth players were not nearly ready enough to be introduced to 1st team football, this was the main reason Bill Hendry and James Mcdonaugh were released from their contracts ( I think James was offered a lesser coaching role but turned it down ). The football our youth were playing was always nice pretty attacking football but strength and conditioning and mental strength was neglected, meaning they turned up at 1st team level still looking like wee laddies and then they struggled to cope with the more physical side of the game.
This was 2 years ago now, we have specialist strength and conditioning coaches, so I'd expect to see these 3 lads pushing for regular 1st team spots but they still seem to be behind where they should be. Sam is now 21, as to is Danny with Harris now 20 years old. They are now of an age where they should be 1st picks on the team sheet but they aint, aslo we still don't know where Sammy and Danny are best played, midfield, attacking mid, out wide we still don't know.

[Unseen work]

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It has been mentioned on a good few threads that our main problem was the youth players were not nearly ready enough to be introduced to 1st team football, this was the main reason Bill Hendry and James Mcdonaugh were released from their contracts ( I think James was offered a lesser coaching role but turned it down ). The football our youth were playing was always nice pretty attacking football but strength and conditioning and mental strength was neglected, meaning they turned up at 1st team level still looking like wee laddies and then they struggled to cope with the more physical side of the game.
This was 2 years ago now, we have specialist strength and conditioning coaches, so I'd expect to see these 3 lads pushing for regular 1st team spots but they still seem to be behind where they should be. Sam is now 21, as to is Danny with Harris now 20 years old. They are now of an age where they should be 1st picks on the team sheet but they aint, aslo we still don't know where Sammy and Danny are best played, midfield, attacking mid, out wide we still don't know.

I know the coaches have a responsibility for there physical development.

But IMO at the end of the day it's the players that need to realise this is holding them back massively, when I was 16 I realised I had to join a gym to play better in football, I bulked up and my all round game improved as a result. Now I never played at a very high level or anything, so for a youngster at an spl team to neglect this side to me is staggering.

[Mikey09]

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We've just let Liam Craig go and he was keeping Stanton out the team. Fact is, he has not taken his chance.

So maybe Stubbs thinks Sam will be given this season to push into Craig's role? This is a huge season for Sam and I for one have great faith in him to be a big player for us...

[MB62]

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I know the coaches have a responsibility for there physical development.

But IMO at the end of the day it's the players that need to realise this is holding them back massively, when I was 16 I realised I had to join a gym to play better in football, I bulked up and my all round game improved as a result. Now I never played at a very high level or anything, so for a youngster at an spl team to neglect this side to me is staggering.

I don't think it is just our young team that suffers from this, I have been saying our whole squad has been lightweight for years. When Celtc gubbed us in the final a few years ago, it was men against boys in the physical aspect of things, we were getting bullied off the ball in every challenge.
There is absolutely no excuse for this to be happening, given the facilities we have at East Mains. Players not bulking out is down to either poor coaching or laziness on the players part, or both.
I do believe this improved last season but there is still room for more work to be done there.

[jacomo]

Ryan Gauld and our very own Riordan are not big lads but broke through anyhow - although I agree, players can disregard their physical development as well.

I hope all three prove themselves worthy of a 1st team place this season, it is time to step up.

[brog]

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It has been mentioned on a good few threads that our main problem was the youth players were not nearly ready enough to be introduced to 1st team football, this was the main reason Bill Hendry and James Mcdonaugh were released from their contracts ( I think James was offered a lesser coaching role but turned it down ). The football our youth were playing was always nice pretty attacking football but strength and conditioning and mental strength was neglected, meaning they turned up at 1st team level still looking like wee laddies and then they struggled to cope with the more physical side of the game.
This was 2 years ago now, we have specialist strength and conditioning coaches, so I'd expect to see these 3 lads pushing for regular 1st team spots but they still seem to be behind where they should be. Sam is now 21, as to is Danny with Harris now 20 years old. They are now of an age where they should be 1st picks on the team sheet but they aint, aslo we still don't know where Sammy and Danny are best played, midfield, attacking mid, out wide we still don't know.

I agree with much of what you say JC but it's actually less than a year since our youth set up was reformed. The problem with all 3 players, Sam, Danny & Alex is that they're far too good for development football but have struggled to make an impact at senior level. Alex is the biggest disappointment for me, I saw Celtc-Dundee at the end of last season & he was like a lost wee laddie playing with the big boys. I think Sam has a real opportunity this season with LC gone. He's now the only natural left sided midfielder & I think he could flourish getting the opportunity to play beside the likes of Fyvie &, fingers crossed, Scott Allan. I don't want to start another Danny Handling debate but I think he could do a real job for a team such as Falkirk or Dunfermline & hopefully work his way back up again. The one thing all 3 need is games, they can't improve on the bench.

[Unseen work]

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I don't think it is just our young team that suffers from this, I have been saying our whole squad has been lightweight for years. When Celtc gubbed us in the final a few years ago, it was men against boys in the physical aspect of things, we were getting bullied off the ball in every challenge.
There is absolutely no excuse for this to be happening, given the facilities we have at East Mains. Players not bulking out is down to either poor coaching or laziness on the players part, or both.
I do believe this improved last season but there is still room for more work to be done there.

That's true, this season u can see a massive difference in the shape of the players we have
Gray, forster, Fontaine, Stevenson, fyvie, Allan are all stocky muscular guys, u can also see Cummings is starting to add quite a bit of muscle

[J-C]

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That's true, this season u can see a massive difference in the shape of the players we have
Gray, forster, Fontaine, Stevenson, fyvie, Allan are all stocky muscular guys, u can also see Cummings is starting to add quite a bit of muscle

Strength doesn't come from pure muscle bulk alone, you can be strong without being huge. If you've ever met Fontaine you'd see this, he's a fairly tall lad and on the pitch looks a decent size, stand next to him and there's nothing of him, no huge muscles just strong sinewy ones, very similar Farid and Malonga.

[Unseen work]

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Strength doesn't come from pure muscle bulk alone, you can be strong without being huge. If you've ever met Fontaine you'd see this, he's a fairly tall lad and on the pitch looks a decent size, stand next to him and there's nothing of him, no huge muscles just strong sinewy ones, very similar Farid and Malonga.

I realise this. Disagree with Fontaine however, he's a big guy IMO and a lot bulkier than faird and malonga who are more ripped

[Unseen work]

http://www.scotsman.com/webimage/1.3...3676155752.jpg

This photo looks like Stanton is his son haha

[J-C]

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I realise this. Disagree with Fontaine however, he's a big guy IMO and a lot bulkier than faird and malonga who are more ripped

I can tell you he's not, I met him a few times and although big, he's not huge with bulked up muscles, strong and sinewy like Farid etc.

[Unseen work]

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I can tell you he's not, I met him a few times and although big, he's not huge with bulked up muscles, strong and sinewy like Farid etc.

Well we will have to agree to disagree on this, although his arms aren't massive, they are quite big and IMO his back and shoulders give him a bulkier look than malonga and farid.

[green.and.white]

The wonderful thing about Football is that you don't need to be a certain height like in Basketball, or a certain build like in the NFL, this is a sport open to everyone of any shape or size. Doesn't matter if you're built like Xavi or Cristiano Ronaldo or Peter Crouch, you can make it if you're good enough.

I am currently not convinced by Handling, he should really have stood out in this league but failed to, comparing him with Cummings who has stepped forward and finished as the leagues top scorer. I like Stanton, there is definitely a player in there but next season is make or brake for him

[The Leith Dutch]

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We've just let Liam Craig go and he was keeping Stanton out the team. Fact is, he has not taken his chance.

Much as I like Stanton I have to agree.
If you look at the midfield that kept him out only Allan would be close to untouchable performance wise.
Any of Fyvie, Robbo, McGeouch and Craig could have been dislodged with the right performance (which is no slight on those players as McGeough had a pretty good season).

He managed 857 minutes over 22 appearances in the league which suggests that he had chances but didn't push on.
Somewhat harsh I know but I think more ruthlessness and less consoling arm round the shoulder / misty eyed perception of youth is probably a significant part of our long term malaise......

[Unseen work]

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Much as I like Stanton I have to agree.
If you look at the midfield that kept him out only Allan would be close to untouchable performance wise.
Any of Fyvie, Robbo, McGeouch and Craig could have been dislodged with the right performance (which is no slight on those players as McGeough had a pretty good season).

He managed 857 minutes over 22 appearances in the league which suggests that he had chances but didn't push on.
Somewhat harsh I know but I think more ruthlessness and less consoling arm round the shoulder / misty eyed perception of youth is probably a significant part of our long term malaise......

I know u say only Allan couldn't be displace but fyvie mcgeoch and robbo all had really go seasons individually, and even more so as a unit working together imo

[brog]

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Much as I like Stanton I have to agree.
If you look at the midfield that kept him out only Allan would be close to untouchable performance wise.
Any of Fyvie, Robbo, McGeouch and Craig could have been dislodged with the right performance (which is no slight on those players as McGeough had a pretty good season).

He managed 857 minutes over 22 appearances in the league which suggests that he had chances but didn't push on.
Somewhat harsh I know but I think more ruthlessness and less consoling arm round the shoulder / misty eyed perception of youth is probably a significant part of our long term malaise......

I think that's very harsh on Sam. He only started 8 league games & 9 in total all season, ie 20% of our games. It's hard to influence games getting only 20 mins or so at a time, there were a number of games when Scott A & others in our midfield were very quiet in the first 20 but came on to a great game.

[The Leith Dutch]

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I know u say only Allan couldn't be displace but fyvie mcgeoch and robbo all had really go seasons individually, and even more so as a unit working together imo

Sorry - didn't put that particularly well.

Those three all had good seasons and did work well together.....was more that I could have seen Stanton dislodging one of them with a series of excellent performances. Wasn't a criticism of any of those three and the only reason Allan was excepted was (for me at least) he regularly performed at a level above anything I've seen so far from Stanton.

[The Leith Dutch]

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I think that's very harsh on Sam. He only started 8 league games & 9 in total all season, ie 20% of our games. It's hard to influence games getting only 20 mins or so at a time, there were a number of games when Scott A & others in our midfield were very quiet in the first 20 but came on to a great game.

It's certainly harsh :)
But I suppose that's the point of the thread - should we be harsher on and expect more of our young players?

On the minutes front and looking only at the league:
8 starts + 14 sub performances at around 20 minutes each.
This against generally weak opposition.

I'd argue that if, as the thread is suggesting, we're being more ruthless then that's a more than decent chance to stake a claim and that a player who genuinely has "it" would have stuck his hand up.

Not ruling out the fact that sticking by players and gradually coaxing the best out of them is a decent option but I think it's worth debating whether the risk of throwing away a good one merits sticking by a lot who don't make it.

I guess it comes down to what you think will get the best out of a young player:
Ruthless to force them to perform or nurturing so that they're not too scared.

[Dashing Bob S]

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I'm glad to see we are becoming more ruthless with youngsters. I think Harris and Stanton might be gone. Some part of me would be happy if they stayed but I honestly don't think they've improved much since they broke through. Handling is in similar boat tbh. We've had a history of clinging on to youngsters hoping that one day they'll come good.

Obviously they might but by now I would have expected Harris to be tearing most defences a new one due to his pace and acceleration. I would've expected Stanton to be fitter and more physical. They both should be regulars by now.

Agreed. We are playing in the second tier of Scottish football.

[Unseen work]

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Sorry - didn't put that particularly well.

Those three all had good seasons and did work well together.....was more that I could have seen Stanton dislodging one of them with a series of excellent performances. Wasn't a criticism of any of those three and the only reason Allan was excepted was (for me at least) he regularly performed at a level above anything I've seen so far from Stanton.

Sorry get what you mean now!
Deffinetly think Stanton has the ability and would of provided a good balance to the midfield, very creative as well and can score goals. Hope he pushes on this season

[anon1875]

I honestly don't think coming on here though and making threads about them not being good enough helps the situation. These young boys probably come on here and read things, can't imagine it does wonders for their confidence. Who remembers all the David Wotherspoon threads from a few years back? Now he's in the SPFL/Europe and we're stuck down here so that shows you how much half the people starting those threads really knew about judging a player. It's amazing what a little bit of confidence can do in football.

[J-C]

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I honestly don't think coming on here though and making threads about them not being good enough helps the situation. These young boys probably come on here and read things, can't imagine it does wonders for their confidence. Who remembers all the David Wotherspoon threads from a few years back? Now he's in the SPFL/Europe and we're stuck down here so that shows you how much half the people starting those threads really knew about judging a player. It's amazing what a little bit of confidence can do in football.

And tell me, how many years massaging their egos do we have to do to wait for them to start stepping up, they are not young boys any more, in fact only a year or two less than Allan and Fyvie, they should be forcing Craig and Robertson out the team and they didn't.

[ancient hibee]

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I think that's very harsh on Sam. He only started 8 league games & 9 in total all season, ie 20% of our games. It's hard to influence games getting only 20 mins or so at a time, there were a number of games when Scott A & others in our midfield were very quiet in the first 20 but came on to a great game.

Don't think it's really harsh.If Stanton only started 8 league games it's because the coaches didn't think he was ready to start more and that really is what this thread is about.

[brog]

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Don't think it's really harsh.If Stanton only started 8 league games it's because the coaches didn't think he was ready to start more and that really is what this thread is about.

Or maybe because we had our best midfield since the days of Boozy, Scotty etc. At the start of last season no one would have believed we would have Allan, Fyvie & McGeouch in our team. If Stanton wasn't getting a game ahead of the likes of Taiwo or Tudor-Jones I would agree.

[StevieT]

In my opinion, the worst thing that could happen to youth development was the disbanding of the reserve league. There is a huge gulf between the youngsters and the first team. The reserve league allowed good youngsters to pit their talents against seasoned pro's in a safe environment. Now it's Under 20 or first team with nothing in between. Whilst this may suit teams like the OF etc who can go out and buy ready made first team players, clubs like us who need to nurture youth now don't have the environment to do so.