What was Tom Hart like?

[TheFamous1875]

Following on from other threads complaining about the running of our club, I thought it'd make a good thread for some of the more 'weather beaten' faithful to explain to us youthful, success-starved types how the club was run back then. All I know is that he got George Best in to the dismay of Eddie Turnbull in order to punt up the ticket sales at the time when Hibs were in decline. Making football decisions against the manager's wishes in my eyes is the wrong way to run a football club.

However, this is the same man who oversaw successful Hibs teams of the 1960s and 70s when Hibs would pay fees for established players (Alan Gordon, Alec Edwards) who would turn out to be integral cogs in great teams.

So, from manager to manager, success to strife - how exactly was the club run back in those days in comparison to today? What were the pros and cons of his tenure?

[Kaiser_Sauzee]

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Following on from other threads complaining about the running of our club, I thought it'd make a good thread for some of the more 'weather beaten' faithful to explain to us youthful, success-starved types how the club was run back then. All I know is that he got George Best in to the dismay of Eddie Turnbull in order to punt up the ticket sales at the time when Hibs were in decline. Making football decisions against the manager's wishes in my eyes is the wrong way to run a football club.

However, this is the same man who oversaw successful Hibs teams of the 1960s and 70s when Hibs would pay fees for established players (Alan Gordon, Alec Edwards) who would turn out to be integral cogs in great teams.

So, from manager to manager, success to strife - how exactly was the club run back in those days in comparison to today? What were the pros and cons of his tenure?

A great opening post and by far one of the more potentially interesting threads on this site in recent weeks. Surprised this hasn't had any responses.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Following on from other threads complaining about the running of our club, I thought it'd make a good thread for some of the more 'weather beaten' faithful to explain to us youthful, success-starved types how the club was run back then. All I know is that he got George Best in to the dismay of Eddie Turnbull in order to punt up the ticket sales at the time when Hibs were in decline. Making football decisions against the manager's wishes in my eyes is the wrong way to run a football club.

However, this is the same man who oversaw successful Hibs teams of the 1960s and 70s when Hibs would pay fees for established players (Alan Gordon, Alec Edwards) who would turn out to be integral cogs in great teams.

So, from manager to manager, success to strife - how exactly was the club run back in those days in comparison to today? What were the pros and cons of his tenure?

I'm sure other people can give you more detail. Hart didn't take over till the 70s

He ran the club as his personal fiefdom, he didn't get on very well with the fans. He did put a lot of his own money in.

The main criticism is that the club wasn't run on any business principles at all. That meant that when e died there was a big hole in the income. We were in a mess for many years after.

Managers found him difficult, as he went over their heads over team selection, and bonuses. He sometimes embarrassed the club at the SFA. For example, Motherwell had most of their first team squad signed off during a flu epidemic. Hart went against sporting principles, and insisted they play a cup replay against us - being the Scottish Cup, they won of course.

The original complex character, nevertheless he did fund a great team. Sound like anyone we know?

Over to the real experts.

[Iggy Pope]

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Following on from other threads complaining about the running of our club, I thought it'd make a good thread for some of the more 'weather beaten' faithful to explain to us youthful, success-starved types how the club was run back then. All I know is that he got George Best in to the dismay of Eddie Turnbull in order to punt up the ticket sales at the time when Hibs were in decline. Making football decisions against the manager's wishes in my eyes is the wrong way to run a football club.

However, this is the same man who oversaw successful Hibs teams of the 1960s and 70s when Hibs would pay fees for established players (Alan Gordon, Alec Edwards) who would turn out to be integral cogs in great teams.

So, from manager to manager, success to strife - how exactly was the club run back in those days in comparison to today? What were the pros and cons of his tenure?

We didn't have much success in the way of winning things in the 60s and Hart wasn't there then anyway.

He was in charge to bring Eddie Turnbull back as manager and we had a few great years and a great side, no question.

However, the history books don't lie and we had one major honour to show for it, a League Cup, so pretty much the same end delivery as the current regime.

Hart was what you might call a 'firebrand' and he had little time for the authorities.
TV cameras were banned at one time as was Joe Harper for growing a beard!

It did not end at all well and ER used to simmer in a 'Hart Must Go' frenzy any time things were going badly. And that was often.

[greenpaper55]

Like most fans i never met Tom Hart but i do know he gave me the best footballing moments of my life namely the 7-0 game and a team that could give many of the best teams in Europe a run for their money. No doubt the real experts who were not even born then will tell me i'm wrong.

[Hibs Class]

I was still at primary school during his time in charge; my memory is hazy so happy to be corrected. He was against TV cameras, don't recollect if it was because he thought too much TV coverage would drive down crowds, but it was a battle he fought for a while. I also think he may have been there when Hibs were the first to seek shirt sponsorship from Bukta and that led to another confrontation - we had Bukta across the chest for non-TV games and a much smaller logo when televised.

One memory relates to John MacDonald, mentioned on the biggest cheats thread. Hart was so outraged that he spoke publicly, accusing the diving cheat of being a diving cheat and getting a sizeable fine in the process.

[ALF TUPPER]

I was quite young when Tom Hart was about but seem to recall he ran around in a 5L Classic Bristol car. (Dont know how i remember that) He underwrote George Best's salary himself and chucked a load of personal ££dosh into the Club.

I got the impression he treated the club like it was his very own toy.

I kinda liked him.

I'm sure there are other Hibbys who can tell us more about the guy. Definitely wasnt the worse.

[Hibs Class]

There's also a thread from 3-4 years ago which has quite a bit on him (& which will save some other.netters having to repost )

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?1...rnian-Chairmen

[One Day]

He was never afraid to say what he thought. His response to an article in the media stating that Scottish football needed more Celtic and Rangers fans was..... "Scottish football needs more Celtic and Rangers fans like Custer needed more Indians". Good answer

[JAY-ESS GREEN]

Can't remember the year but our bus broke down on Way to hampden and tom pulled over gave 3 of us lift to game top bloke.

[GordonHFC]

I always found him to be an amiable guy to talk to.

Him and Tommy Younger used to eat/drink regularly at the old Queensway Hotel on the Queensferry Road next to the Stewarts Melville school (no longer there). My mate used to work behind the bar and Tom Hart gave us tickets for the England v Scotland game in 1979.

[ancient hibee]

It was definitely his way or no way.He got rid of Willie McFarlane by trying to pick his team.When season ticket holders in the centre stand complained about missing kick offs because there was only one turnstile while two walk up turnstiles were unused his response was to put up a notice telling us to be seated 10 mintes before kick off.On the other hand he put in the money and the club behaved like a proper big club and he did it for the club not to make himself appear the star.He and Eddie were two of a kind and it was amazing that they worked together as long as they did.

[fat freddy]

He will always be remembered for bringing Eddie Turnbull to the club which, in turn, led to a period of success that was better than anything we've had since. He will also be remembered for bringing George Best to the club. Whether that was good for the club at the time or not is debatable but the fact that George Best played for Hibs is now viewed through green tinted glasses as an amazing feat. During his tenure we contested six cup finals, eight if you count replays, winning three and losing three, plus two draws if you consider the 1979 finals. Not a bad record but despite that he left us with the fans chanting 'Hart must Go!' most saturdays....thats football, i suppose

[superfurryhibby]

During his tenure as owner I was too young to have any opinion on the merits of his stewardship. History and hindsight suggests to me that Tom Hart quickly tired of football club ownership and that by the time he sold us to Kenny Waugh, the club had been relegated and was on it's knees.

In 1974 the club broke the Scottish transfer record by buying wee fat Joe. Within a few years every sellable asset associated with the team had gone. Hibs sold on Brownlie, Blackley, Bremner, Cropley, and Smith, all bringing in pretty decent transfer fees. None of them were replaced and the decline was inevitable.

Difficult to appraise but relegation and the decade of mediocrity that followed suggests to me that Hart left Hibs in a worse place than when he took over.

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

Gruff, tough, no nonsense and a Hibs fanatic, didn't take any **** from the weegie media,

Just don't make em like him anymore for sure.

[jacomo]

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There's also a thread from 3-4 years ago which has quite a bit on him (& which will save some other.netters having to repost )

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?1...rnian-Chairmen

Thanks to OP and you for this link. Before my time so an interesting read.

I note that Doddie is singing the praises of Farmer and Petrie back in 2010, but is now leading the case for the prosecution. Just shows how opinions can change.

[Peevemor]

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During his tenure as owner I was too young to have any opinion on the merits of his stewardship. History and hindsight suggests to me that Tom Hart quickly tired of football club ownership and that by the time he sold us to Kenny Waugh, the club had been relegated and was on it's knees.

In 1974 the club broke the Scottish transfer record by buying wee fat Joe. Within a few years every sellable asset associated with the team had gone. Hibs sold on Brownlie, Blackley, Bremner, Cropley, and Smith, all bringing in pretty decent transfer fees. None of them were replaced and the decline was inevitable.

Difficult to appraise but relegation and the decade of mediocrity that followed suggests to me that Hart left Hibs in a worse place than when he took over.

It should be remembered that it was during the mid-late 70s, ie. toward the end of Hart's tenure, that attendances everywhere plummeted with Hibs and Hearts both regularly playing to home gates of around 5,000 (with entry being a lot cheaper in relative terms than it is now).

The OP also referred to "when Hibs would pay fees for established players". Pre-Bosman, fees were required for practically every first team player who didn't come through the club's youth system. Free transfers were pretty rare and were usually for players who were either crap or at the end of their careers (or both). Evene a squad player picked up from a 1st division team would often involve a transfer fee of maybe £30-50k (even when their contract was up).

[jeffers]

I don't remember a lot about him, but there was the joke that John Macdonald wasn't welcome at his funeral in case he dived in the box.

[Keith_M]

No idea about his personality but I do seem to recall a lot of people saying how much he loved the club. He would do almost anything to get one over Hearts, including spend a lot of his own money.

On the downside, he oversaw the deterioration of Easter Road that didn't start to be addressed until Waugh was in charge. The place was, quite frankly, a dump, with the fans on the main terracing still standing in uncovered conditions with little other comforts to speak of, while other clubs were gradually bringing their stadia into the modern era. Not that he was alone in this, as most stadia were a mess, but Easter Road must have been one of (if not the) last stadiums in Scotland to have a roof over its main terrace.

[superfurryhibby]

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It should be remembered that it was during the mid-late 70s, ie. toward the end of Hart's tenure, that attendances everywhere plummeted with Hibs and Hearts both regularly playing to home gates of around 5,000 (with entry being a lot cheaper in relative terms than it is now).

The OP also referred to "when Hibs would pay fees for established players". Pre-Bosman, fees were required for practically every first team player who didn't come through the club's youth system. Free transfers were pretty rare and were usually for players who were either crap or at the end of their careers (or both). Evene a squad player picked up from a 1st division team would often involve a transfer fee of maybe £30-50k (even when their contract was up).

Just had a quick look at the crowds of the Hart era. Astonishing differences between minimum and maximum's. The lowest average was in 1979, just under 9,500. The highest was 72-73, just over 16,000. Take your point that entry was cheaper, but I would add that that there was an enormous undeclared element in the gates (Leeds Utd game as a case in point and just about any game v O/F/Hearts).

In terms of fees. Hibs paid relatively small fees for guys like Edwards and Gordon (13,000 and 10,000) and not many more. We did take in big fees for Brownlie, Blackley, Cropley, Smith and Bremner (was Joe Ward involved in Bremner's transfer?).

It would be really interesting to hear more views about this era of Hibs and the role of the owner.

[cmcd]

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No idea about his personality but I do seem to recall a lot of people saying how much he loved the club. He would do almost anything to get one over Hearts, including spend a lot of his own money.

On the downside, he oversaw the deterioration of Easter Road that didn't start to be addressed until Waugh was in charge. The place was, quite frankly, a dump, with the fans on the main terracing still standing in uncovered conditions with little other comforts to speak of, while other clubs were gradually bringing their stadia into the modern era. Not that he was alone in this, as most stadia were a mess, but Easter Road must have been one of (if not the) last stadiums in Scotland to have a roof over its main terrace.

Have been looking back at posts from 2010 and found most of them quite interesting Have always thought of Doddie as a sensible poster but have to disagree with his comment about Ian Munro In my opinion Ian was a class player in any position As for Joe Harper I was as pleased as everyone else when he first signed but could never understand why Turnbull broke up the most prolific partnership in Scottish football to accommodate him Again only my opinion but i think ET lost the plot around this time and broke the Tornadoes up far too soon Having read most of the teams autobiography"s they thought if they had stayed together that they would have gone on to greater success

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

Selling to Waugh was his biggest mistake IMHO, never trust a bookie, dire days under his tenure.

[Peevemor]

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Selling to Waugh was his biggest mistake IMHO, never trust a bookie, dire days under his tenure.

At least he spent a bit of cash reducing and then covering the East terracing. By far the best atmospheres I've experienced at ER were on the standing, covered terracing.

[Keith_M]

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At least he spent a bit of cash reducing and then covering the East terracing. By far the best atmospheres I've experienced at ER were on the standing, covered terracing.

[Jonnyboy]

Pretty sure Tom Hart was a prime mover in the mid 70's to establish the original ten club Premier League. He thought it would lead to bigger crowds and better competition. It worked to an extent but most clubs were scared of losing and facing relegation as a result.

[mim]

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I always found him to be an amiable guy to talk to.

Him and Tommy Younger used to eat/drink regularly at the old Queensway Hotel on the Queensferry Road next to the Stewarts Melville school (no longer there). My mate used to work behind the bar and Tom Hart gave us tickets for the England v Scotland game in 1979.

Late 70s or early 80s, I met him in the Queensway on my way back from an East Fife v Hibs preseason or reserve game. He was surprised that anyone had bothered going and asked how the game went. I told him that the no 10 trialist was outstanding. He said he would tell Bertie (Auld) to get him signed. The trialist was James Brown and he was indeed signed. He turned out to be pish. Oooops.

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

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At least he spent a bit of cash reducing and then covering the East terracing. By far the best atmospheres I've experienced at ER were on the standing, covered terracing.

Didn't make the team any better anyway, that's what counts is it not?

[Peevemor]

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Didn't make the team any better anyway, that's what counts is it not?

Kenny Waugh sold Hibs to Davie Duff in mid August 1997. For our first home match of season 97-98, a 1-0 against Rangers with Alex Miller as manager, Waugh was still owner.

The Hibs starting 11 was

Alan Rough
Callum Milne
Tommy McIntyre
Eddie May
Gordon Rae
Gordon Chisholm
Micky Weir
Paul Kane
Stevie Cowan
Graham Mitchell
John Collins
(Beastie came on as a sub)

from http://www.fitbastats.com/hibs/game.php?gameid=77841

Far from the worst team I've seen.

[jdships]

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I always found him to be an amiable guy to talk to.

Him and Tommy Younger used to eat/drink regularly at the old Queensway Hotel on the Queensferry Road next to the Stewarts Melville school (no longer there). My mate used to work behind the bar and Tom Hart gave us tickets for the England v Scotland game in 1979.

I knew " Big Tam" quite well and my friends and I used the Queensway regularly.
Tam introduced us to TH and as you rightly say he was very amiable ( especially if the results were good ).
However when the " going got tough" he soon let you know Hibs were HIS club.
He had a big house alongside Raveslton GC with an indoor swimming pool which he allowed the Hibs senior players to use .
Had the odd freebie for games from him .
Got the distinct impression in the months before selling to KW that he had tired of " owning a football club" .
" Hart the Builders" at Macmerry weren't doing so well either .
A difficult man to really assess .

[--------]

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Have been looking back at posts from 2010 and found most of them quite interesting Have always thought of Doddie as a sensible poster but have to disagree with his comment about Ian Munro In my opinion Ian was a class player in any position As for Joe Harper I was as pleased as everyone else when he first signed but could never understand why Turnbull broke up the most prolific partnership in Scottish football to accommodate him Again only my opinion but i think ET lost the plot around this time and broke the Tornadoes up far too soon Having read most of the teams autobiography"s they thought if they had stayed together that they would have gone on to greater success

Remind me what I said about Iain Munro? IIRC he was brought in as left midfield cover - was Sodjer injured at the time? A broken leg courtesy of Alex Ferguson perhaps? He was nothing like as good as Cropley. Who was? I think he later played at left-back after Shades went - again, no comparison. My opinion, in terms of the team of that time, Munro was a good-quality squad player brought in to provide left-sided cover for Shades, Nijinsky and Sodjer, who would walk into any team in the SPFL today, and most of the EPL as well. I have the idea that perhaps he wasn't the easiest to get on with at times. But it's a long time ago, and I'm probably wrong. Iain wasn't the problem, anyhow. I wish we had some players half as good now.

Hart was a very mixed blessing IMO. He was Hibs daft himself and really wanted the club to do well, but he wasn't too clever at times in regard to how he went about things. He engineered Willie Mac's departure by ordering him not to play Joe McBride against Liverpool. Willie played Joe (as any self-respecting team manager would have) and was gone. Turnbull came in, and (again IMO) we were the poorer for it. I've always thought that Willie MacFarlane was one of the lost opportunities of my time following Hibs, but Willie wouldn't kowtow to anyone, not even Tom Hart, and Hart expected his employees to do just that.

I notice one or two folks saying the "kinda liked him" - I don't think they would be saying that if they'd worked for him on one of his building sites. A couple of my mates worked for him on the Lochend high flats and reckoned that on site he was a foul-mouthed bully.

Moreover, while I don't enjoy speaking ill of the dead (well, I actually do enjoy it, sometimes!) I lived in a house Hart built in Wester Hailes for the first seven years of my married life. The houses LOOKED all right, but there came a time when all the chickens came home to roost at once.

• The harling fell off - not enough concrete, too much sand. Concrete cost a lot more than sand, and the council were paying.
• Cement slabs started falling off the tops of the vents for the central heating - not properly secured - cement and steel securing pins cost money - and the council were paying.
• The screens on the drying areas in the flats had to be removed - they were supposed to be fireproof, but they were actually made of a much cheaper, highly flammable plastic that when it caught fire gave off fumes as toxic as Zyklon-B. The council were paying.
• The pipe-boxes for the internal downpipes had to be opened up and metal collars put on the pipes at each floor-level - this was supposed to have been done when the houses were built but they cost too much so Hart's just left them out. They had charged the council for them, though. And the council had paid up, for non-existent collars on every downpipe in every flat in Murrayburn, Dumbryden, Hailesland, Clovenstone ....

It was all stuff that should have been done, that Hart said had been done, that Hart had charged the council for doing, but that had never been done. And please nobody say that TH didn't know what was going on - nobody would have dared to skin the council on a Hart project without cutting him in - they'd have ended up buried in the foundations if they'd tried. In 4 words - Tom Hart was a crook.

Of course, he wasn't alone. Those were the days of the cowboy builders screwing local authorities right, left and centre - people like John Poulsen ending up in jail for corruption and fraud, Reggie Maudling falling on his sword and only avoiding porridge because he was an MP. Hart was just one more like the rest. I have the definite feeling that the Fraud Squad had been sniffing around TH for a wee while just before he died - maybe he dropped off the twig just in time to avoid a jail sentence.

(Mind you, if he'd built the jail himself, he could have just kicked a hole in the wall and walked out a free man. Quality and sturdiness of construction were not words he was familiar with, at all. )


In the long run, he wasn't good for Hibs. Even talking about him paying big fees for players - the fees I remember from his time are £10,000 for Alan Gordon, £13,000 for Alex Edwards, £10,000 for Jim Herriot, and I can't remember what we paid for Des Bremner. I don't think the club ever said. The big fees I recall were around £35,000 for Iain Munro, who was a better player than I thought he was, no doubt, and of course the then club record fee of £140,000 quid (count it!) for the Wee Fat Cowardly Lardass Harper. We did pay a fee for Jim McArthur, but I don't think it qualified as a 'big' fee; I'm quite happy to be corrected on that, because I just can't remember.

As far as those who look back on Hart's time as the good old days, bear in mind that this was the period we signed superstars like Joe Ward, Alec Scott, Graeme Fyfe and others even worse (seriously!). Benny Brazil was a "star of the future" according to Turnbull - "the next Pat Stanton". Yes, he actually said that. I've never been able to take Turnbull seriously as a football manager since the Saturday I read that in his program notes.

When Tom Hart died, he left the club in serious financial disarray, and it took us years to recover - if in fact we really have recovered. We look pretty sick and dysfunctional to me right now.