Official Site: Under 20s Out of Youth Cup

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Rangers u20s 5 Hibernian u20s 1



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[NAE NOOKIE]

Surprised that nobody else has posted on this. Not because of the scoreline but because of the reaction of the academy coaches to it.

What I got from it was a damning indictment of the academy from its own staff. Saying stuff along the lines of, the players get told what to do but just wont do it, and most of them will be on the way out if they dont start measuring up. That team included two players who have been in the first team squad this season.

I thought it was the job of the academy to take players with potential and prepare them as much as is possible to be first team contenders. It seems to me that the staff at East Mains aint too impressed with the current crop of 17 to 19 year olds. If thats true then it seems to me that the failure is on their shoulders as much as the young players.

Perhaps its not just the youngsters with stars in their eyes down at East Mains who need a boot up the backside.

[Hamish]

James maybe thinks its the right time to tell the players how it is as, just as he says, the arm round the shoulder isn't working with some of them. Along with that we have a new manager and a clean slate, so its an ideal time for some of them on the verge of stepping up to extract the digit from their posterior.

[GreenCastle]

Just read the article.

Some interesting comments.

Think it's easy as an Academy coach to blame the players - surely it's their jobs to develop the talent and scout the players with potential.

To me this is worrying - basically saying our u20 side aren't good enough and doesn't look like the 1st team will see any benefits!

Little worrying!

[Jonnyboy]

Seems way out of character from JM

Maybe trying to emphasise to them they aint made it yet

[oconnors_strip]

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Seems way out of character from JM

Maybe trying to emphasise to them they aint made it yet

I wasn't at the game so can't comment on that but many players, and not just at hibs think they've made it but in reality they will be playing amateur league soon enough.

There isn't a problem with the coaches at hibs, but it's hard to work when your hands are tied behind your back.

[jdships]

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Seems way out of character from JM

Maybe trying to emphasise to them they aint made it yet

I understand that you are right on the money with that
It appears there has been a chat re " what is expected from a professional sportsman regardless of age "
One or two perhaps living in the " comfort zone "

[flash]

With the lack of quality coming through the last few years I think its more than just the laddies who could be leaving the club soon.

[Slim Shady]

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With the lack of quality coming through the last few years I think its more than just the laddies who could be leaving the club soon.

Lack of quality - you for real.

Handling - Stanton - Harris - Grant (on loan at Berwick) Donaldson Forster Caldwell (even tho hes mis firing atm)

Problem at The Academy lies with 'The Jannie' for me.

Bill Hendry - Useless waste of space and should never be in the position he is in.

[GreenCastle]

Of the current youngsters we have -

Handling - still work in progress but seems to be developing ok
Stanton - needs more game time - not done enough yet
Harris - best of the bunch - can't wait to see him back playing again
Grant - (on loan at Berwick) - due back in Jan 2014
Donaldson - (on loan at Arbroath) due back Jan 2014
Forster - Think Butcher rates him and will give him game time = turn into a decent defender with games.
Caldwell - like Stanton - but showed with his derby winner he can finish - needs games.
Horribine - what's happened to him?
Booth - (on loan at Raith) due back in May 2014 - but I think his contract is up? How has he been doing
Cummings - scores goals at youth but not had many chances in 1st team

We have a fair few there but only Harris /Forster / Handling are really getting a look in - I am amazed Booth hasn't done more - looked a really good player when he broke through.

[Leishy1995]

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Of the current youngsters we have -

Handling - still work in progress but seems to be developing ok
Stanton - needs more game time - not done enough yet
Harris - best of the bunch - can't wait to see him back playing again
Grant - (on loan at Berwick) - due back in Jan 2014
Donaldson - (on loan at Arbroath) due back Jan 2014
Forster - Think Butcher rates him and will give him game time = turn into a decent defender with games.
Caldwell - like Stanton - but showed with his derby winner he can finish - needs games.
Horribine - what's happened to him?
Booth - (on loan at Raith) due back in May 2014 - but I think his contract is up? How has he been doing
Cummings - scores goals at youth but not had many chances in 1st team

We have a fair few there but only Harris /Forster / Handling are really getting a look in - I am amazed Booth hasn't done more - looked a really good player when he broke through.

Booth from what I'm told from family friends of his, feels Fenlon gave him no chance to prove himself and intends to do so if butcher allows him too. He has said he feels the benefit of his loan spell and is aware of how possible it is his career could end. And will look anywhere to play football. Wants to move to England if Hibs don't give him a chance.

[hibeeleicester]

Our academy isn't all as rosie as it seems, we have been VERY lucky with some of the players that have come through. We need to increase our scouting for these youngsters for a start. James is a top guy and manager and im sure this is just a kick up the arse for some of his boys.

[bob12345]

I'm a wee bit taken back at this. I would have thought there were better ways to make examples of slackers without taking to the media - when we're talking about the youth team. Especially the singling out of individuals who made costly mistakes at the start. Nothing against the coaching staff having a rant, but I don't think whoever publishes content on the Hibs website should have put it out in its entirety.

[flash]

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Lack of quality - you for real.

Handling - Stanton - Harris - Grant (on loan at Berwick) Donaldson Forster Caldwell (even tho hes mis firing atm)

Problem at The Academy lies with 'The Jannie' for me.

Bill Hendry - Useless waste of space and should never be in the position he is in.

None of the above have established themselves in the first team. Look at Aberdeen, Dundee United and even Hertz. I know its not by choice with them but am not so sure we would pick up many points with 8 or 9 youth players starting every week so i stand by my comments.

I dont know whose fault it is but our production line needs an overhaul pronto.

[DaveF]

Stinging words from McDonaugh there and it kind of shines a light into the way our youth has been run over the last few years. It's certainly not as rosy as some think it is.

Butcher and co seemed to do well with youth at ICT so hopefully the new management team will be allowed free reign to give EM the root and branch clear out which it looks like is needed.

[blackpoolhibs]

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I wasn't at the game so can't comment on that but many players, and not just at hibs think they've made it but in reality they will be playing amateur league soon enough.

There isn't a problem with the coaches at hibs, but it's hard to work when your hands are tied behind your back.

In what way?

[cat1875]

interesting posts here firstly I have watched a lot of youth football over the years and have watched a lot of our u20 games this season.
we started this season flying and if you look at the table will notice we've won 5 games to rangers 4 this season with the same games played before Sundays cup tie which our performance was poor to be honest.
our team is so unsettled this year with also competing in the eos games which does not help IMO.I know people say toughens them up etc but not for me id rather see a settled team playing against other young pros at there same level in proper u20 games.
the scouting and coaching IMO is excellent believe cummings was offered double wages and a signing fee at hertz also offers from Celtic,Dundee utd,st Johnstone and Huddersfield and james mcd secured his signing at hibs.
not every player will make it as you all know and getting 1 to 3 players a year progressing to the 1st team is a realistic aim.the yams have had to play youth players and unfortunately they are becoming better players by being forced into 1st team football which by default backs up my general opinion that hibs should give youth more 1st team action !

[EVENTUALLY]

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interesting posts here firstly I have watched a lot of youth football over the years and have watched a lot of our u20 games this season.
we started this season flying and if you look at the table will notice we've won 5 games to rangers 4 this season with the same games played before Sundays cup tie which our performance was poor to be honest.
our team is so unsettled this year with also competing in the eos games which does not help IMO.I know people say toughens them up etc but not for me id rather see a settled team playing against other young pros at there same level in proper u20 games.
the scouting and coaching IMO is excellent believe cummings was offered double wages and a signing fee at hertz also offers from Celtic,Dundee utd,st Johnstone and Huddersfield and james mcd secured his signing at hibs.
not every player will make it as you all know and getting 1 to 3 players a year progressing to the 1st team is a realistic aim.the yams have had to play youth players and unfortunately they are becoming better players by being forced into 1st team football which by default backs up my general opinion that hibs should give youth more 1st team action !

Totally agree.

[Andy74]

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interesting posts here firstly I have watched a lot of youth football over the years and have watched a lot of our u20 games this season.
we started this season flying and if you look at the table will notice we've won 5 games to rangers 4 this season with the same games played before Sundays cup tie which our performance was poor to be honest.
our team is so unsettled this year with also competing in the eos games which does not help IMO.I know people say toughens them up etc but not for me id rather see a settled team playing against other young pros at there same level in proper u20 games.
the scouting and coaching IMO is excellent believe cummings was offered double wages and a signing fee at hertz also offers from Celtic,Dundee utd,st Johnstone and Huddersfield and james mcd secured his signing at hibs.
not every player will make it as you all know and getting 1 to 3 players a year progressing to the 1st team is a realistic aim.the yams have had to play youth players and unfortunately they are becoming better players by being forced into 1st team football which by default backs up my general opinion that hibs should give youth more 1st team action !

The problem is, who do we give more first team action to when their own under 20 manager doesn't think that they are doing enough in their current age group?

I think we do well for trying to get youngsters in and around the squads but I haven't been impressed with many of them in recent years really. Harris and Forster maybe.

Our youngsters still largely look like little kids when they make the step up.

[offshorehibby]

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There isn't a problem with the coaches at hibs, but it's hard to work when your hands are tied behind your back.

Interesting statement and as BH says.

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In what way?

[andrew70]

On the way through to Ibrox on Sunday I went to watch Hibs Under 15s play at Hamilton (Boozy's team). Hamilton beat them 3-1. What I noticed at that age was the same as I witnessed at Ibrox, later in the day and at first team level this whole season.

Teams were playing with no shape, relied on long balls and were too easily pinned back by fitter, faster and stronger opponents even at the youthful age of 14.

I got speaking to some of the youth coaches at Hamilton and at Ibrox, my brother works with them so knows them all and the set up pretty well.

What I got from my conversations with the coaches were that the guys higher up the food chain within the academy are the issue. Refusing to let boys go even though they are just not good enough etc. Sentimentality shouldn't disguise from the fact a player is not good enough. Indeed a coach who did let a player go has been lambasted by others at the club because said player has won himself a contract at Livi. Despite the majority of coaches agreeing he is not good enough, they have been dismissed in their views by BH etc. For the simple fact that he 'might have come good'

Now my problem with this is, surely we should be aiming higher than players that can sign for Livingston anyway??

I was also concerned by the amount of good players that we have turned away over the years. A scout, who also works for Blackburn Rovers up in Scotland, was in the company of my brother and I at Ibrox and was speaking to the other coaches and despite him saying these players will be stars in the future Hibs have knocked back Snodgrass, Dorrans and McArthur to name but a few.

Thats now a Scottish international midfield right there. So I definitely think there needs to be change within the academy. Right from the top because the set up is archaic to say the least.

[JimBHibees]

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On the way through to Ibrox on Sunday I went to watch Hibs Under 15s play at Hamilton (Boozy's team). Hamilton beat them 3-1. What I noticed at that age was the same as I witnessed at Ibrox, later in the day and at first team level this whole season.

Teams were playing with no shape, relied on long balls and were too easily pinned back by fitter, faster and stronger opponents even at the youthful age of 14.

I got speaking to some of the youth coaches at Hamilton and at Ibrox, my brother works with them so knows them all and the set up pretty well.

What I got from my conversations with the coaches were that the guys higher up the food chain within the academy are the issue. Refusing to let boys go even though they are just not good enough etc. Sentimentality shouldn't disguise from the fact a player is not good enough. Indeed a coach who did let a player go has been lambasted by others at the club because said player has won himself a contract at Livi. Despite the majority of coaches agreeing he is not good enough, they have been dismissed in their views by BH etc. For the simple fact that he 'might have come good'

Now my problem with this is, surely we should be aiming higher than players that can sign for Livingston anyway??

I was also concerned by the amount of good players that we have turned away over the years. A scout, who also works for Blackburn Rovers up in Scotland, was in the company of my brother and I at Ibrox and was speaking to the other coaches and despite him saying these players will be stars in the future Hibs have knocked back Snodgrass, Dorrans and McArthur to name but a few.

Thats a Scottish international midfield right there. So I definitely think there needs to be change within the academy. Right from the top because the set up is archaic to say the least.

Was that Scougall? My view is that it will be very difficult to choose kids and be certain who will make and who wont. It is a very difficult shout IMO and hindsight can be a cruel judge as there will be loads of players who arent picked who wont make it. I think we also need to be realistic that Rangers still have an excellent youth set up and guys like McKay has played regularly in the first team and looked very good to me.

[andrew70]

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Was that Scougall? My view is that it will be very difficult to choose kids and be certain who will make and who wont. It is a very difficult shout IMO and hindsight can be a cruel judge as there will be loads of players who arent picked who wont make it. I think we also need to be realistic that Rangers still have an excellent youth set up and guys like McKay has played regularly in the first team and looked very good to me.

No not Scougall, a younger player more recent than that. Scougall is another that the scout couldn't believe we let go. Rangers' striker really really impressed me. They may well have a decent youth set up but the fact remains Hibs far too many mediocre players on their books and for some reason we insist on kepping them on just in case. I think its the time the whole club starts looking higher.

As you say it is very hard to judge with players so young and you will get the wrong calls but you should always be looking behind you and making sure the players are going to be able to improve the next age group. Whether it be 15s to 17s, 17s to 20s or 20s to first team the principle should remain the same. If they arent then its time to look to the next group instead of persisting with the current incumbents.

I am going to Kirkcaldy on Friday evening to watch Scotland Under 16s play their English counterparts and in the Scotland squad is a very highly rated Hibs youngster called Ben Stirling. I've been told to watch out for him so good luck to the lad on Friday.

[oconnors_strip]

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Interesting statement and as BH says.

Petrie and hendry are the men holding some of the progression of our youngsters back, to stuck in their ways! Hopefully butcher will change this

[andrew70]

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Petrie and hendry are the men holding some of the progression of our youngsters back, to stuck in their ways! Hopefully butcher will change this

This is what I was told as well N. There is a lot of good knowledge within the coaching set up in the academy but if it is not utilised properly then it will not improve. Too many yes men, stuck in their ways but given a good shake up then it could be doing so much better.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Petrie and hendry are the men holding some of the progression of our youngsters back, to stuck in their ways! Hopefully butcher will change this

What is Petrie doing to halt the progress of the youngsters? This is going to be good....

[flash]

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What is Petrie doing to halt the progress of the youngsters? This is going to be good....

Presumably just by backing Bill Hendry. Anything more would verge on the sinister.........

[oconnors_strip]

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What is Petrie doing to halt the progress of the youngsters? This is going to be good....

What's the need for "this is going to be good....."? I'm stating my opinion

Petrie is the one who says yes or no when it comes to signings and wages. As someone said earlier, we need to think higher and bigger at youth level.

[cat1875]

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What's the need for "this is going to be good....."? I'm stating my opinion

Petrie is the one who says yes or no when it comes to signings and wages. As someone said earlier, we need to think higher and bigger at youth level.

In your opinion do we realistically have anyone in the u20s looking able to step up to 1st team squad/bench already ?

[jacomo]

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I'm a wee bit taken back at this. I would have thought there were better ways to make examples of slackers without taking to the media - when we're talking about the youth team. Especially the singling out of individuals who made costly mistakes at the start. Nothing against the coaching staff having a rant, but I don't think whoever publishes content on the Hibs website should have put it out in its entirety.

Well I found it refreshing, and I'm glad that we are not just accepting mediocrity anymore - I think we have done this for a long time.

I don't what the answer is, whether we need a change of personnel or something else, but frankly the coaching at Hibs could do with improvement. We are constantly seeing players in our first team who seem to under perform compared with their records at other clubs, and this feels like a deep-rooted issue.

Hibs need a thorough shake up.