Why play two holding players in centre midfield?

[superfurryhibby]

I wondered if folks could give their thoughts on why Fenlon persists with the notion of playing two defensive midfielders in the centre midfield positions? I can't pretend to have any profound tactical awareness, but it seems fairly apparent to me that we need someone who can link and break past forwards from the centre midfield position, especially if we persist with playing other central midfielders out wide.

What would happen if we played someone like Craig or Robertson alongside Thomson in the centre midffield role?

Is this a pattern that's reflected in other teams formations or is it Fenlon's inate over-cautious approach that we reflected here?

[Treadstone]

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I wondered if folks could give their thoughts on why Fenlon persists with the notion of playing two defensive midfielders in the centre midfield positions? I can't pretend to have any profound tactical awareness, but it seems fairly apparent to me that we need someone who can link and break past forwards from the centre midfield position, especially if we persist with playing other central midfielders out wide.

What would happen if we played someone like Craig or Robertson alongside Thomson in the centre midffield role?

Is this a pattern that's reflected in other teams formations or is it Fenlon's inate over-cautious approach that we reflected here?

Plenty teams do it but not usually in a four four two. They usually have genuine wide men and overlapping full backs so protecting a back four can be crucial. I too would like to see either Robertson or Craig in the centre probably more so Robertson as Craig is still effective where he is currently playing. Scotts game has suffered being asked to play where he is but does give his all for the team. PF won't be changing it against Celtic though.

[Andy74]

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I wondered if folks could give their thoughts on why Fenlon persists with the notion of playing two defensive midfielders in the centre midfield positions? I can't pretend to have any profound tactical awareness, but it seems fairly apparent to me that we need someone who can link and break past forwards from the centre midfield position, especially if we persist with playing other central midfielders out wide.

What would happen if we played someone like Craig or Robertson alongside Thomson in the centre midffield role?

Is this a pattern that's reflected in other teams formations or is it Fenlon's inate over-cautious approach that we reflected here?

Aren't they just central midfielders? Football Manager has a few things to answer for!

[Ozyhibby]

Loads of teams do it now, usually with inverted wingers and overlapping fullbacks and rarely with two strikers.
It's the overlapping full backs we have never had.

[hfc_chris]

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Loads of teams do it now, usually with inverted wingers and overlapping fullbacks and rarely with two strikers.
It's the overlapping full backs we have never had.

Not since the David Murphy and Steven Whittaker days!

[patlowe]

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I wondered if folks could give their thoughts on why Fenlon persists with the notion of playing two defensive midfielders in the centre midfield positions? I can't pretend to have any profound tactical awareness, but it seems fairly apparent to me that we need someone who can link and break past forwards from the centre midfield position, especially if we persist with playing other central midfielders out wide.

What would happen if we played someone like Craig or Robertson alongside Thomson in the centre midffield role?

Is this a pattern that's reflected in other teams formations or is it Fenlon's inate over-cautious approach that we reflected here?

Personally I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with playing two defensive midfielders but it should all depend on what kind of players you have in the other midfield/forward positions. This should also be balanced against the playmaking abilities of the holding midfielders selected. For me, two disciplined defensive midfielders can be really effective if you have a goal-scoring floating 'number 10', two good wingers and a hard working centre forward. However, we tend to play two defensive midfielders and two slightly less defensive midfielders out wide.

Maybe a tad too attacking for some but perhaps we could go with something like:

Tudor Jones Thomson

Craig
Zoubir Harris

Heffernan/Collins

Edit: Not sure how to format it properly but Craig is in front of the midfield two, with Zoubir and Harris as wingers.

[JimBHibees]

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Aren't they just central midfielders? Football Manager has a few things to answer for!

I agree, dont think Thomson could be classed as that at all. They dont get forward very much that is for sure. You would think one could go and one could sit but dont see that happening very often.

[MWHIBBIES]

Bayern won the champions league with Schweinsteiger and Gustavo/Martinez sitting last season.

[TowerHibs]

plenty teams do it yeah.....no one expcept us though in Scotland.

Game is far to fast to allow for 2 defensive holding midfielders. Hence why we are slow and pedestrian going forward

[cabbageandribs1875]

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Bayern won the champions league with Schweinsteiger and Gustavo/Martinez sitting last season.

lazy gits

[MWHIBBIES]

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lazy gits

[Kato]

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Aren't they just central midfielders? Football Manager has a few things to answer for!

They are totally dedicated to being defensive players, this means they physically incapable of passing forward or moving into forward positions (when you are playing a computer game).

[Pretty Boy]

I don't think we play 2 players as sitting midfielders we just play 2 players who like to sit.

I suppose one solution may be to drop 1 of Thomson or Taiwo, move Robertson to the centre and play Zoubir wide. Although that won't work every week.

A case of horses for course perhaps.

[superfurryhibby]

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Aren't they just central midfielders? Football Manager has a few things to answer for!

Never played football manager.

I think the key might be in the bit where I suggested that neither Thomson or Taiwo are able to get forward and link with the strikers or go beyond them and create some goal menace. I wondered what Fenlon feels the gameplan is with the obvious limitations of both players in terms of their attacking abilities.

I thought it was more traditional to combine central midfield with one defensive midfielder and a player with who knew how to try and score a goal or two maybe?

Anyone able to try and explain Fenlon's logic here or is that kind of analysis beyond us mere football supporting mortals

[hibees 7062]

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plenty teams do it yeah.....no one expcept us though in Scotland.

Game is far to fast to allow for 2 defensive holding midfielders. Hence why we are slow and pedestrian going forward

Are the yams not doing it ?

[TowerHibs]

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Are the yams not doing it ?

not sure but if that is the case then i'm sure it's because they don't have a choice. Robinson in paper today slating Locke for his tactics and you can hardly say the Yams set the place on fire in an attacking sense

[Ozyhibby]

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plenty teams do it yeah.....no one expcept us though in Scotland.

Game is far to fast to allow for 2 defensive holding midfielders. Hence why we are slow and pedestrian going forward

So the top European sides that use this system would struggle in Scotland? Why are we not doing better in Europe then?

[Treadstone]

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Anyone able to try and explain Fenlon's logic here or is that kind of analysis beyond us mere football supporting mortals

Its his default position. We are a predictable team to line up against.

[Mr White]

Did we go 4-1-4-1 on Monday once zoubir and otj replaced Collins and tt? Looked like it to me, kt seemed to be playing a bit further forward with otj in behind?

[BVB Hibs]

In fairness, having two deep midfielders is an effective way of approaching a game. However, you need 2 different types of players, one ball winner, and one deep lying playmaker. Obviously the playmaker still needs to be able to make a tackle, or he's a bit useless in that position, but the idea of one player sitting deep, winning the ball and giving it to out sideways to the other defensive midfielder has it's merits. We don't really need a midfielder to come in and score goals, which is why Craig would be pretty useless in the centre if we continue playing a 4-4-2. It's all about being able to thread the ball into an advanced position, so the wingers can stick in a cross, or so the forwards gain possession in the attacking third, able to lay off to create the chance. In America they have a stat called a second assist, which is the pass that is given to create the assist. That's exactly the stat you're going for with a two deep men, and I actually think it's the right tactic to take as our front 4 in a 4-4-2 are actually quite decent and do a good job in an advanced position. The issue is that we have nobody to fulfil this role. OTJ, KT and Taiwo are all defensive midfielders, but none of them the type that will be able to put a 40 yard ball onto the foot of a winger to attack down the flank. Times like this I'd love to have Claros back.

[Treadstone]

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In America they have a stat called a second assist, which is the pass that is given to create the assist. That's exactly the stat you're going for with a two deep men, and I actually think it's the right tactic to take as our front 4 in a 4-4-2 are actually quite decent and do a good job in an advanced position. The issue is that we have nobody to fulfil this role.

Confused as why this would be 'the right tactic' considering you also say we have nobody to fulfil this role ?

[Stringer]

I think we should attack teams, with our wealth of CMs we should play 4 1 4 1

OTJ

Zoubir. Robertson. KT Craig.

Collins

[Andy74]

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I think we should attack teams, with our wealth of CMs we should play 4 1 4 1

OTJ

Zoubir. Robertson. KT Craig.

Collins

Attack teams by removing our best striker?

[Jones28]

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I think we should attack teams, with our wealth of CMs we should play 4 1 4 1

OTJ

Zoubir. Robertson. KT Craig.

Collins

Quite like that

[J-C]

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I wondered if folks could give their thoughts on why Fenlon persists with the notion of playing two defensive midfielders in the centre midfield positions? I can't pretend to have any profound tactical awareness, but it seems fairly apparent to me that we need someone who can link and break past forwards from the centre midfield position, especially if we persist with playing other central midfielders out wide.

What would happen if we played someone like Craig or Robertson alongside Thomson in the centre midffield role?

Is this a pattern that's reflected in other teams formations or is it Fenlon's inate over-cautious approach that we reflected here?

Usually played with a 4-2-3-1 formation, the 2 holding players are generally just good solid midfielders who help protect the back 4, when 1 goes forward in attack the other will stay back and act as defensive cover and vice versa.

We have the personnel to play this system but Fenlon will never be attack minded enough to use it

Williams

Maybury
McPake/whoever
Hanlon
McGivern/Stevenson

Taiwo/OTJ
Thomson/OTJ

Zoubir/Vine
Craig/Robertson/Cairney
Harris/Craig/Cairney

Collins/Heffernan

[IWasThere2016]

Two's fine if you plenty pace and flair in the other 4 positions - something we don't have.

[Brightside]

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Aren't they just central midfielders? Football Manager has a few things to answer for!

Nope they are not just CM. He plays a flat 4 thats the problem. In a flat 4 system the 2 CM sit direct in front of the CBs. you then have a LM and RM but critically you have no creative midfielder... The game is then reliant on movement through the wings. But Robertson and Craig are also not natural wingers so this fails and we end up with a static midfield which will often get bypassed by long balls from CB to CF. Hope that helps. "Coaching for Dummies" (No offence intended to anyone on the forum)

[J-C]

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Nope they are not just CM. He plays a flat 4 thats the problem. In a flat 4 system the 2 CM sit direct in front of the CBs. you then have a LM and RM but critically you have no creative midfielder... The game is then reliant on movement through the wings. But Robertson and Craig are also not natural wingers so this fails and we end up with a static midfield which will often get bypassed by long balls from CB to CF. Hope that helps. "Coaching for Dummies" (No offence intended to anyone on the forum)

Exactly why very few teams play a 4-4-2 nowadays, it's old hat and the game has moved on. Take a look at Arsenal, they play a 4-2-3-1 with Ozil in the whole behind the striker, Rooney plays the same at Man U, just behind RVP, they both play with 2 wide men(with pace).

We had Harris and we cried out for more pace out wide, Zoubir was a late panic buy because Harris was injured, we need 3 wide men(1 for cover) with pace and at the moment we have 1, who's not allowed onto the pitch until the 60th minute at the earliest.

[Feed McGraw]

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Aren't they just central midfielders? Football Manager has a few things to answer for!

Yeah they are, but only the central bit of their own half.

[Andy74]

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Nope they are not just CM. He plays a flat 4 thats the problem. In a flat 4 system the 2 CM sit direct in front of the CBs. you then have a LM and RM but critically you have no creative midfielder... The game is then reliant on movement through the wings. But Robertson and Craig are also not natural wingers so this fails and we end up with a static midfield which will often get bypassed by long balls from CB to CF. Hope that helps. "Coaching for Dummies" (No offence intended to anyone on the forum)

Helps with what you think you are seeing, so yes.