Thoughts on last night (merged)

[The Sea-gull]

Wanted to post a few things last night but forum is always crowded after a match and wanted to think about a few things too.

1. Terrible performance for 3/4s of the game last night. Defence looked shaky, midfield unbalanced and strikers not in the game.

2. A good win though, these sort of games are potentially tricky and we have slipped up before so credit to the players for sticking at it.

3. The win was largely, but not entirely, down to luck more than a tactical master class by PF. Manager deserves a certain degree of credit for making changes which won the game but there is no doubt he was lucky we were still in the game at that point. Play like that most weeks and we will lose more than we win.

4. Ben Williams is a fantastic shot-stopper. A bit suspect on crosses but compared to the keepers we have been subjected to in the last 10 years (perhaps only Stack and the brief spell of the Mad Monk offering any competition) he is outstanding.

5. We continue to look unconvincing at the back. Right back seems to have a make-shift look whoever we play there though that could be solved by a fit Clancy returning and getting a run. Something doesn't seem right about McGivern and Hanlon remains shaky almost 6 years after making his first team debut. Him and Nelson are not the first XI quality required if we want to do well. Even with a fully fit McPake, Fenlon has neglected to sign a real quaility centre half which has been needed since he came to us.

6. Liam Craig offers us something we haven't had since Dean Shiels left nearly 5 years ago. A genunie goal threat from midfield. He also offers a calm head when defending - he looks to play a long pass rather than punt it clear.

7. Thomson and Taiwo are too similar, too defensive and get in each others way. One or the other for me and it has to be Thomson based on this season and general experience and quality. Move Robertson into the centre with KT and it would give us better balance in the centre and allow Zouby to get a shot out wide on the right.

8. Our strikers aren't scoring enough goals. Early days yet for both JC and Heff but they need better service. Heff for me has been more impressive than JC. Tin hat on here but at 200k I would have expected more than 2 goals in 9 games from JC, irrespective of the service he has and the adaptation to a new league.

9. I remain unconvinced that we will ever play good football regularly under PF. I just don't think he has that in him but to be honest if given the choice over winning football matches and playing nice stuff, it will be the former every time for me. That said, he still has to blood Zoubi and Harris and Cairney have to come back so maybe there is creative light at the end of the tunnel.

10. The GIRUY style posts on the match day thread from one or two last night after we took the lead were needless. We all want Hibs to score goals and win games. I didn't see many people going OTT with their posts during the game. I just saw lots of people telling it how it was - a poor display. A win does not change the fact that it was a poor display.

11. Michael Stewart has got a lot of flack but some of what he says on Pat rings true and he is paid to offer an opinion. The presenter Kenny McIntyre really seems to have a problem with Hibs and loves jobby stirring whenever he is on the air especially with Stewart. Think McIntyre must get paid a bonus everytime he can get the "John Collins saga" mentioned on air, he never fails to get the conversation round to it even though it happened in 2007 FFS.

12. The Sportsound team sounded gutted that we won and that was PLEASING to hear!

13. We have had a "poor" start to the season yet are level on points with Aberdeen who have been "brilliant" and were due to sweep all before them.

14. My own view on Pat hasn't changed - still unconvinced but think he deserves the season and will assess him at the end of the season or when top 6 becomes an impossibility. Whichever comes first.

Interested to hear where others agree/disagree.

[Keith_M]

They wiz robbed!

[dangermouse]

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Wanted to post a few things last night but forum is always crowded after a match and wanted to think about a few things too.

1. Terrible performance for 3/4s of the game last night. Defence looked shaky, midfield unbalanced and strikers not in the game.

2. A good win though, these sort of games are potentially tricky and we have slipped up before so credit to the players for sticking at it.

3. The win was largely, but not entirely, down to luck more than a tactical master class by PF. Manager deserves a certain degree of credit for making changes which won the game but there is no doubt he was lucky we were still in the game at that point. Play like that most weeks and we will lose more than we win.

4. Ben Williams is a fantastic shot-stopper. A bit suspect on crosses but compared to the keepers we have been subjected to in the last 10 years (perhaps only Stack and the brief spell of the Mad Monk offering any competition) he is outstanding.

5. We continue to look unconvincing at the back. Right back seems to have a make-shift look whoever we play there though that could be solved by a fit Clancy returning and getting a run. Something doesn't seem right about McGivern and Hanlon remains shaky almost 6 years after making his first team debut. Him and Nelson are not the first XI quality required if we want to do well. Even with a fully fit McPake, Fenlon has neglected to sign a real quaility centre half which has been needed since he came to us.

6. Liam Craig offers us something we haven't had since Dean Shiels left nearly 5 years ago. A genunie goal threat from midfield. He also offers a calm head when defending - he looks to play a long pass rather than punt it clear.

7. Thomson and Taiwo are too similar, too defensive and get in each others way. One or the other for me and it has to be Thomson based on this season and general experience and quality. Move Robertson into the centre with KT and it would give us better balance in the centre and allow Zouby to get a shot out wide on the right.

8. Our strikers aren't scoring enough goals. Early days yet for both JC and Heff but they need better service. Heff for me has been more impressive than JC. Tin hat on here but at 200k I would have expected more than 2 goals in 9 games from JC, irrespective of the service he has and the adaptation to a new league.

9. I remain unconvinced that we will ever play good football regularly under PF. I just don't think he has that in him but to be honest if given the choice over winning football matches and playing nice stuff, it will be the former every time for me. That said, he still has to blood Zoubi and Harris and Cairney have to come back so maybe there is creative light at the end of the tunnel.

10. The GIRUY style posts on the match day thread from one or two last night after we took the lead were needless. We all want Hibs to score goals and win games. I didn't see many people going OTT with their posts during the game. I just saw lots of people telling it how it was - a poor display. A win does not change the fact that it was a poor display.

11. Michael Stewart has got a lot of flack but some of what he says on Pat rings true and he is paid to offer an opinion. The presenter Kenny McIntyre really seems to have a problem with Hibs and loves jobby stirring whenever he is on the air especially with Stewart. Think McIntyre must get paid a bonus everytime he can get the "John Collins saga" mentioned on air, he never fails to get the conversation round to it even though it happened in 2007 FFS.

12. The Sportsound team sounded gutted that we won and that was PLEASING to hear!

13. We have had a "poor" start to the season yet are level on points with Aberdeen who have been "brilliant" and were due to sweep all before them.

14. My own view on Pat hasn't changed - still unconvinced but think he deserves the season and will assess him at the end of the season or when top 6 becomes an impossibility. Whichever comes first.

Interested to hear where others agree/disagree.

They were playing too far apart to be effective. Long punt up the park which Collins wins and holds onto but Heffernan (or anyone else for that matter) no where near him to receive a pass or flick on.

[SMAXXA]

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They were playing too far apart to be effective. Long punt up the park which Collins wins and holds onto but Heffernan (or anyone else for that matter) no where near him to receive a pass or flick on.

I actually thought Heff won more headers than Collins last night which was a surprise. Playing with their back to goal too too far out from goal imo

[PeeJay]

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14. My own view on Pat hasn't changed - still unconvinced but think he deserves the season and will assess him at the end of the season or when top 6 becomes an impossibility. Whichever comes first.

Interested to hear where others agree/disagree.

Good post - agree with almost all of it EXCEPT Nr. 14! - Fenlon has to be shown the door ASAP ... he is responsible for the poor "football" (and one has to use the term very loosely when applied to his team ...)

[SMAXXA]

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Good post - agree with almost all of it EXCEPT Nr. 14! - Fenlon has to be shown the door ASAP ... he is responsible for the poor "football" (and one has to use the term very loosely when applied to his team ...)

Joint 4th with Aberdeen, in the quarters of the cup but aye lets get him to ****. Same as Mcinnes at the dons I'm sure he should be binned tae.

i know it's not great to watch at times but that can improve when we have more direct offensive options ala cairney, Harris and seeing more of Zuby

[southsider]

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Good post - agree with almost all of it EXCEPT Nr. 14! - Fenlon has to be shown the door ASAP ... he is responsible for the poor "football" (and one has to use the term very loosely when applied to his team ...)

Correct PJ as a good coach could turn what is not a bad squad of players into an intertaining and winning team. 2nd place could be within our sweaty, greedy grasp.

[Golden Bear]

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Correct PJ as a good coach could turn what is not a bad squad of players into an intertaining and winning team. 2nd place could be within our sweaty, greedy grasp.

[PeeJay]

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Joint 4th with Aberdeen, in the quarters of the cup but aye lets get him to ****. Same as Mcinnes at the dons I'm sure he should be binned tae.

i know it's not great to watch at times but that can improve when we have more direct offensive options ala cairney, Harris and seeing more of Zuby

Well enjoy it as long as it lasts and you're pleased with it - 4th in the league and still in a cup ATM, it's OK! Personally, I fear a slide is just around the corner so I'd still get rid of him ... he's not fooling me

[The Sea-gull]

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Good post - agree with almost all of it EXCEPT Nr. 14! - Fenlon has to be shown the door ASAP ... he is responsible for the poor "football" (and one has to use the term very loosely when applied to his team ...)

I'm no PF fan and remain totally unconvinced by him. Don't think he had the credentials to get the Hibs job but said to myself from day 1 that I would not call for his head as long as he met minimum realistic targets which I feel he has, just, since he has been here. We had to give this manager at least till the end of this season as the short reigns of Collins, Mixu, Yogi and CC have done us no favours. Only replace it if it is broke beyond repair, if you can patch it up and see how it goes for a wee while then that may work out best in the long run. That might be the case with PF.

By minimum targets, I mean this for PF:-

Season 1 - save us from relegation. Done.
Season 2 - get us away from the relegation battle and get us challenging for top 6. Done.
Season 3 - get us into the top 6, ideally top 4 and competing for 2nd. Do this and gets a deal for next season, don't and he's out.

[Frazerbob]

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Wanted to post a few things last night but forum is always crowded after a match and wanted to think about a few things too.

1. Terrible performance for 3/4s of the game last night. Defence looked shaky, midfield unbalanced and strikers not in the game.

2. A good win though, these sort of games are potentially tricky and we have slipped up before so credit to the players for sticking at it.

3. The win was largely, but not entirely, down to luck more than a tactical master class by PF. Manager deserves a certain degree of credit for making changes which won the game but there is no doubt he was lucky we were still in the game at that point. Play like that most weeks and we will lose more than we win.

4. Ben Williams is a fantastic shot-stopper. A bit suspect on crosses but compared to the keepers we have been subjected to in the last 10 years (perhaps only Stack and the brief spell of the Mad Monk offering any competition) he is outstanding.

5. We continue to look unconvincing at the back. Right back seems to have a make-shift look whoever we play there though that could be solved by a fit Clancy returning and getting a run. Something doesn't seem right about McGivern and Hanlon remains shaky almost 6 years after making his first team debut. Him and Nelson are not the first XI quality required if we want to do well. Even with a fully fit McPake, Fenlon has neglected to sign a real quaility centre half which has been needed since he came to us.

6. Liam Craig offers us something we haven't had since Dean Shiels left nearly 5 years ago. A genunie goal threat from midfield. He also offers a calm head when defending - he looks to play a long pass rather than punt it clear.

7. Thomson and Taiwo are too similar, too defensive and get in each others way. One or the other for me and it has to be Thomson based on this season and general experience and quality. Move Robertson into the centre with KT and it would give us better balance in the centre and allow Zouby to get a shot out wide on the right.

8. Our strikers aren't scoring enough goals. Early days yet for both JC and Heff but they need better service. Heff for me has been more impressive than JC. Tin hat on here but at 200k I would have expected more than 2 goals in 9 games from JC, irrespective of the service he has and the adaptation to a new league.

9. I remain unconvinced that we will ever play good football regularly under PF. I just don't think he has that in him but to be honest if given the choice over winning football matches and playing nice stuff, it will be the former every time for me. That said, he still has to blood Zoubi and Harris and Cairney have to come back so maybe there is creative light at the end of the tunnel.

10. The GIRUY style posts on the match day thread from one or two last night after we took the lead were needless. We all want Hibs to score goals and win games. I didn't see many people going OTT with their posts during the game. I just saw lots of people telling it how it was - a poor display. A win does not change the fact that it was a poor display.

11. Michael Stewart has got a lot of flack but some of what he says on Pat rings true and he is paid to offer an opinion. The presenter Kenny McIntyre really seems to have a problem with Hibs and loves jobby stirring whenever he is on the air especially with Stewart. Think McIntyre must get paid a bonus everytime he can get the "John Collins saga" mentioned on air, he never fails to get the conversation round to it even though it happened in 2007 FFS.

12. The Sportsound team sounded gutted that we won and that was PLEASING to hear!

13. We have had a "poor" start to the season yet are level on points with Aberdeen who have been "brilliant" and were due to sweep all before them.

14. My own view on Pat hasn't changed - still unconvinced but think he deserves the season and will assess him at the end of the season or when top 6 becomes an impossibility. Whichever comes first.

Interested to hear where others agree/disagree.

Great post...agree with every point. As I said in another thread, PF has got us to 4th and we are not in any danger of relegation. He is not going to lose his job. We should now support the guy 100% and then, come the end of the season and his contract is up we thank him for his efforts in steadying the ship and part our ways. The board should be working now on his replacement who can take us to the next level with a far better footballing philosophy.

[Col2]

Pat will feel quite smug that we are joint 4th.

This will mask the fact that we were just terrible last night. We all know deep down that this is how it's going to be with Pat in charge.

At best - the odd 30 mins good play and some wins

At worst - performances like last night and Inverness ( we got SO lucky last night)

Zoubir and Harris return are only chinks of light.

[worcesterhibby]

Good original post...fair assessment. not much I would argue with there. Maybe a little harsh on collins. he's a penalty box striker and likes crosses...he simply doesn't get any.

[Andy74]

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Pat will feel quite smug that we are joint 4th.

This will mask the fact that we were just terrible last night. We all know deep down that this is how it's going to be with Pat in charge.

At best - the odd 30 mins good play and some wins

At worst - performances like last night and Inverness ( we got SO lucky last night)

Zoubir and Harris return are only chinks of light.

In the last 15 league games we've won 7 drawn 4 and lost 4. I think the team is getting stronger all the time. Why should I feel deep down that it's always going to be terrible??

[Glesgahibby]

Not a good performance,slow reactions and lack of vision and awareness in defence.
I would say with a full squad available and super zub becoming a regular starter, we have as much a chance as any for second.

[Islington Hibs]

Great post. We looked slow and disjointed until we scored. After that, for a whole 10 minutes we were pretty good.

Before the goal we were ponderous and second to everything. Perhaps these wins will build some confidence. Here's hoping.

Without Williams and lady luck we could have been 2 or 3 down before the substitutions. I would give Zubi a game from the start- he creates so many options.....

The defence hasn't shipped in many goals this season but looked very deep yesterday. We will have to play mightily better against Celtic or get cuffed.

Craig - I agree great player.

At least we are 'up there' despite poor performances. I do think that individually we have one of the best groups of players in the league but can they click?

Still all to play for and on balance I would give Fenlon support and a chance.

[Thecat23]

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Wanted to post a few things last night but forum is always crowded after a match and wanted to think about a few things too.

1. Terrible performance for 3/4s of the game last night. Defence looked shaky, midfield unbalanced and strikers not in the game.

2. A good win though, these sort of games are potentially tricky and we have slipped up before so credit to the players for sticking at it.

3. The win was largely, but not entirely, down to luck more than a tactical master class by PF. Manager deserves a certain degree of credit for making changes which won the game but there is no doubt he was lucky we were still in the game at that point. Play like that most weeks and we will lose more than we win.

4. Ben Williams is a fantastic shot-stopper. A bit suspect on crosses but compared to the keepers we have been subjected to in the last 10 years (perhaps only Stack and the brief spell of the Mad Monk offering any competition) he is outstanding.

5. We continue to look unconvincing at the back. Right back seems to have a make-shift look whoever we play there though that could be solved by a fit Clancy returning and getting a run. Something doesn't seem right about McGivern and Hanlon remains shaky almost 6 years after making his first team debut. Him and Nelson are not the first XI quality required if we want to do well. Even with a fully fit McPake, Fenlon has neglected to sign a real quaility centre half which has been needed since he came to us.

6. Liam Craig offers us something we haven't had since Dean Shiels left nearly 5 years ago. A genunie goal threat from midfield. He also offers a calm head when defending - he looks to play a long pass rather than punt it clear.

7. Thomson and Taiwo are too similar, too defensive and get in each others way. One or the other for me and it has to be Thomson based on this season and general experience and quality. Move Robertson into the centre with KT and it would give us better balance in the centre and allow Zouby to get a shot out wide on the right.

8. Our strikers aren't scoring enough goals. Early days yet for both JC and Heff but they need better service. Heff for me has been more impressive than JC. Tin hat on here but at 200k I would have expected more than 2 goals in 9 games from JC, irrespective of the service he has and the adaptation to a new league.

9. I remain unconvinced that we will ever play good football regularly under PF. I just don't think he has that in him but to be honest if given the choice over winning football matches and playing nice stuff, it will be the former every time for me. That said, he still has to blood Zoubi and Harris and Cairney have to come back so maybe there is creative light at the end of the tunnel.

10. The GIRUY style posts on the match day thread from one or two last night after we took the lead were needless. We all want Hibs to score goals and win games. I didn't see many people going OTT with their posts during the game. I just saw lots of people telling it how it was - a poor display. A win does not change the fact that it was a poor display.

11. Michael Stewart has got a lot of flack but some of what he says on Pat rings true and he is paid to offer an opinion. The presenter Kenny McIntyre really seems to have a problem with Hibs and loves jobby stirring whenever he is on the air especially with Stewart. Think McIntyre must get paid a bonus everytime he can get the "John Collins saga" mentioned on air, he never fails to get the conversation round to it even though it happened in 2007 FFS.

12. The Sportsound team sounded gutted that we won and that was PLEASING to hear!

13. We have had a "poor" start to the season yet are level on points with Aberdeen who have been "brilliant" and were due to sweep all before them.

14. My own view on Pat hasn't changed - still unconvinced but think he deserves the season and will assess him at the end of the season or when top 6 becomes an impossibility. Whichever comes first.

Interested to hear where others agree/disagree.

Good post, I only disagree with your Collins comment. I think the work he does is freighting mate. He holds it up well and rarely loses the ball. Hopefully he scores more though.

[The Sea-gull]

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Good post, I only disagree with your Collins comment. I think the work he does is freighting mate. He holds it up well and rarely loses the ball. Hopefully he scores more though.

Yeh, I thought the Collins comment would be the one that people would disagree with. Fair enough, I have maybe been a little harsh but I just think for 200k (a big out lay for an SPL these days, almost unheard of) a return of 2 goals in 9 games is not good enough.

I'm not fully judging him just yet, will do that midway through the season, again at the end of the season and think it may well be the end of next season (if he is still here) before we can really say whether the signing has been worth it.

[PeterboroHibee]

The main points I picked up on -

5. Im not the biggest fan of Hanlon, but I think last night was down to Nelson. If your CB partner is all over the place, it almost forces you to act and cover for him, pulling you out of position as well.

8. Whilst I agree the strikers return isnt great, I think it is purely down to service. Watching the game last night, what did they actually have to work with? It really concerns me how Fenlon is sending us out, we are set up to try and not lose games (even though we are terrible at defending) and anything else is a bonus. Heffernan especially looks like he will get a lot of goals, but not if theres noone who is able to pick them out in good positions.

13. I dont think Aberdeen have been brilliant - in my opinion, with the players they have at their disposal, they are arguably under-performing. In quite a few games they havent been able to finish teams off or havent been clinical enough in front of goal. We have done well to be on the same points, but a few of them have been fairly lucky to say the least!

14. I agree. My issue with Fenlon was never really about results per se (with the exception of the really horrendous drubbings), but rather the style of football. I dont believe the way he is sending out teams is the way football should be played - Im not expecting us to play like Spain, far from it, but we have good enough players to play decent, attacking football, and they just cant seem to do it. Its just far too dull and negative for me, we may be doing well in terms of points accumulated, but we are hugely under-performing in terms of the actual quality of play.

[Col2]

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In the last 15 league games we've won 7 drawn 4 and lost 4. I think the team is getting stronger all the time. Why should I feel deep down that it's always going to be terrible??

Andy - it's just terrible to watch, most of the time. He has a rally strong squad on paper but last night like several other teams this season, we can't pass, can't defend, look slow, have no creativity.

[carnoustiehibee]

What's the odds on fenlon getting offered the Ireland job?

[Mikey_1875]

People are slating us last night when we have picked up a valuable 3 points at an spl venue. Fenlon and hibs were booed at ht last night absolutely ridiculously. Fair enough I wasn't champagne football but Fenlons tactics were not half bad and we got the win. People are giving the admiral a two on the match rating thread are you having a laugh man has a clean sheet under his belt. Good win and one we would lost last season. The two centre mids were dominated by Osborne. 3 points and onwards and upwards what else do we want. As blobby once said If you want entertainment get yourself to the motion picture house.


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[HUTCHYHIBBY]

The booing at half time was because we were pish!

[Hibercelona]

One we would have lost last season?

Actually, it was one of those games that we could play again 20 times over and take nothing from. We were extremely forunate.

As for Fenlon and his tactics, they were really no different than against Inverness.

[cleanyman]

Partick were all over us in that first half, we were terrible.

[HH81]

I guess you will take a bit of stick but I agree with a lot you say.

Some of the posts on the match thread were a joke. I see none of them posted after we scored and I was proved correct. Sometimes in football you have to grind a result out, job done.

Mon the Hibs.

[Hibercelona]

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I guess you will take a bit of stick but I agree with a lot you say.

Some of the posts on the match thread were a joke. I see none of them posted after we scored and I was proved correct. Sometimes in football you have to grind a result out, job done.

Mon the Hibs.

Theres a difference between grinding it out and pure dumb luck.

Last night wasn't a grinding out performance, it was just as dreadful as it was against Inverness.

[HH81]

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Theres a difference between grinding it out and pure dumb luck.

Last night wasn't a grinding out performance, it was just as dreadful as it was against Inverness.

All teams need a bit of luck, Hibs got it last night and we won. Guess you only want Hibs to win if they outplay teams?

[GreenCastle]

I agree with the majority of the original post.

Several of the issues are linked - shaky defence = low aimless balls up the pitch - lack of composure = panic and hoof.

Strikers lack of service = lack of ball to the midfield (lack of creative midfielders).

Hanlon playing below his best = playing Nelson alongside him

McGivern drop of form = his best position I believe would be alongside Hanlon.

I was delighted Hibs won last night but my worry is we could be still doing better especially with what we have at our disposal. High standards yes...but I want us up there challenging for 2nd / 3rd in this sub standard league with no Sevco and a weakened yams team.

I have mentioned it before but first half performances / attempts at goal is just not good enough. Strangely we do seem to do better in the 2nd half of games but apart from St Mirren - there hasn't been many full 90 min performances.

We now have Celtic / Aberdeen and then the club with no shame.

I wouldn't be surprised if they take 3 or 4 of us if we start slow. Aberdeen will see where we are and how good they actually are. The League cup game = massive pressure on Fenlon / the team to win this after last time's joke at Tynie. Lose this and he would be under severe pressure to go again.

[GreenArmy1875]

It was shocking to watch at times last night. We were second to everything last night. Dont know how many times we stood off them/left them unmarked all over the park. Just hope who ever our new manager next year gets us playing football and competing all over the pitch. Pat has done a good job steadying the ship and bringing some good quality to the club but our team is rank to watch.