Edinburgh Divided: sectarianism in capital football

[Miguel]

The original Hibernian club was sectarian in the sense that only practising Catholics could be involved with it. After we folded and were reborn, the club was consciously opened to the wider community. Its Catholicism and Irishness weakened over the years, and now it is only part of the club's identity.
As far as we know, there was no similar Protestant sectarianism at Hearts: they were simply just another Edinburgh football club. They may have attracted some militantly Protestant supporters, simply by dint of them being in opposition to Hibs. Today, there appears to be no overt emphasis on their Protestant credentials.
But...Perhaps it was more subtle than that.
Hearts, it is claimed, were the 'establishment' club. And the establishment was mainly Protestant. Did class come into it as well, with Hearts supporters at least viewing themselves as socially superior to Hibs fans - the 'away back tae yer bungalows' view?
When I was growing up in Niddrie in the 1960s and 70s, it would be correct to say that all Catholics were either Hibs, or Celtic, while Protestants were probably two to one for Hearts, with the remainder mostly Hibs. Some of the Protestants who supported Hearts were pretty anti-Catholic, but most didn't seem to be particularly bothered either way to be honest.
Have things changed? From my own observations, I would say that most people with an Irish Catholic background will still support us, or the lesser greens, but that the Protestant community has become more fragmented and that even the old east-west split has become less pronounced. It's more a combination of lots of different factors dictating who people support? Thoughts?

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Who lobbed that grenade?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Not having a dash at the OP, but, there seems to have been a few of these define ourselves by religion type posts recently, coincidence or what?

[Saorsa]

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The original Hibernian club was sectarian in the sense that only practising Catholics could be involved with it. After we folded and were reborn, the club was consciously opened to the wider community. Its Catholicism and Irishness weakened over the years, and now it is only part of the club's identity.
As far as we know, there was no similar Protestant sectarianism at Hearts: they were simply just another Edinburgh football club. They may have attracted some militantly Protestant supporters, simply by dint of them being in opposition to Hibs. Today, there appears to be no overt emphasis on their Protestant credentials.
But...Perhaps it was more subtle than that.
Hearts, it is claimed, were the 'establishment' club. And the establishment was mainly Protestant. Did class come into it as well, with Hearts supporters at least viewing themselves as socially superior to Hibs fans - the 'away back tae yer bungalows' view?
When I was growing up in Niddrie in the 1960s and 70s, it would be correct to say that all Catholics were either Hibs, or Celtic, while Protestants were probably two to one for Hearts, with the remainder mostly Hibs. Some of the Protestants who supported Hearts were pretty anti-Catholic, but most didn't seem to be particularly bothered either way to be honest.
Have things changed? From my own observations, I would say that most people with an Irish Catholic background will still support us, or the lesser greens, but that the Protestant community has become more fragmented and that even the old east-west split has become less pronounced. It's more a combination of lots of different factors dictating who people support? Thoughts?

TBH my first thought would actually be who gives a ****. There's something wrong (sad) about people who let religion or politics influence what team they support and this country unfortunately is full of sad people.

[JOD]

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The original Hibernian club was sectarian in the sense that only practising Catholics could be involved with it. After we folded and were reborn, the club was consciously opened to the wider community. Its Catholicism and Irishness weakened over the years, and now it is only part of the club's identity.
As far as we know, there was no similar Protestant sectarianism at Hearts: they were simply just another Edinburgh football club. They may have attracted some militantly Protestant supporters, simply by dint of them being in opposition to Hibs. Today, there appears to be no overt emphasis on their Protestant credentials.
But...Perhaps it was more subtle than that.
Hearts, it is claimed, were the 'establishment' club. And the establishment was mainly Protestant. Did class come into it as well, with Hearts supporters at least viewing themselves as socially superior to Hibs fans - the 'away back tae yer bungalows' view?
When I was growing up in Niddrie in the 1960s and 70s, it would be correct to say that all Catholics were either Hibs, or Celtic, while Protestants were probably two to one for Hearts, with the remainder mostly Hibs. Some of the Protestants who supported Hearts were pretty anti-Catholic, but most didn't seem to be particularly bothered either way to be honest.
Have things changed? From my own observations, I would say that most people with an Irish Catholic background will still support us, or the lesser greens, but that the Protestant community has become more fragmented and that even the old east-west split has become less pronounced. It's more a combination of lots of different factors dictating who people support? Thoughts?

What a load of P--h my friend. Who gives a Fu-k about all that bigotry nonsense You either luv Hibs or don't and that's all that matters to me.

[The_Horde]

The only problem we have with sectarianism is through in that hovel in the west.

[The Baldmans Comb]

Where do the aethists and agnostics fit into your simple world of proddies and kaflicks as I suspect there are a lot more of us?

2nd thoughts dont bother answering as I really don't care and find the subject of your thread extremely tedious and increasingly irrelevant in the 21st century which can only be a good thing.

[07hibee]

[QUOTE=Miguel;3743838]The original Hibernian club was sectarian in the sense that only practising Catholics could be involved with it. After we folded and were reborn, the club was consciously opened to the wider community. Its Catholicism and Irishness weakened over the years, and now it is only part of the club's identity.
As far as we know, there was no similar Protestant sectarianism at Hearts: they were simply just another Edinburgh football club. They may have attracted some militantly Protestant supporters, simply by dint of them being in opposition to Hibs. Today, there appears to be no overt emphasis on their Protestant credentials.
But...Perhaps it was more subtle than that.
Hearts, it is claimed, were the 'establishment' club. And the establishment was mainly Protestant. Did class come into it as well, with Hearts supporters at least viewing themselves as socially superior to Hibs fans - the 'away back tae yer bungalows' view?
When I was growing up in Niddrie in the 1960s and 70s, it would be correct to say that all Catholics were either Hibs, or Celtic, while Protestants were probably two to one for Hearts, with the remainder mostly Hibs. Some of the Protestants who supported Hearts were pretty anti-Catholic, but most didn't seem to be particularly bothered either way to be honest.
Have things changed? From my own observations, I would say that most people with an Irish Catholic background will still support us, or the lesser greens, but that the Protestant community has become more fragmented and that even the old east-west split has become less pronounced. It's more a combination of lots of different factors dictating who people support?

[whiskyhibby]

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What a load of P--h my friend. Who gives a Fu-k about all that bigotry nonsense You either luv Hibs or don't and that's all that matters to me.

well said...............

[1two]

I think it's pretty much non existent at Hibs now other than a recognised part of our history. This is a good thing.

I think it's pretty much the same at hearts although their problem was very much anti-catholic rather than pro-anything else.

The only reason the religious side of things is still some type of issue today in Edinburgh is mainly down to the Glasgow Proddy/Catholic divide.

I was raised a Catholic - although i class myself as an atheist now with absolutely no interest in religion. I'm a hibby because my dad and uncles are all hibbies and they took me to the games. Like it or not, their link to Hibs probably is down to religion somewhere down the line so in that sense one of the reasons I'm a hibby is down to religion. I suspect many others are the same.

When I have kids they'll be hibbies because I won't allow them to be anything else, religion won't come into it.

I guess what I'm saying is, you're right, the religious link is dying out.

But as most have already said, it's for the best.

[gorgie greens]

remember my dad telling me how my mums side of the family were jambos and her dad being in the orange order saying that even although my dad came from a decent protestant church going family from Leith could not accept the fact that my dads family were all proud of their Leith heritage and proud Hibbys,i myself have no religous beliefs in any way,when you think my parents met early 1960's it must have been a problem more for previous generations than todays,i grew up in west Edinburgh (saughton Mains) went to Tynecastle high school and we had maybe two thirds jambos to Hibbys ratio,and you had a few bell ends who started the anti catholic guffi i wore my Hibs scarf on many occations to school hoping to catch the odd yam comming out the piggery after physio or something.
GGTTH

[Jack]

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The original Hibernian club was sectarian in the sense that only practising Catholics could be involved with it. After we folded and were reborn, the club was consciously opened to the wider community. Its Catholicism and Irishness weakened over the years, and now it is only part of the club's identity.
As far as we know, there was no similar Protestant sectarianism at Hearts: they were simply just another Edinburgh football club. They may have attracted some militantly Protestant supporters, simply by dint of them being in opposition to Hibs. Today, there appears to be no overt emphasis on their Protestant credentials.
But...Perhaps it was more subtle than that.
Hearts, it is claimed, were the 'establishment' club. And the establishment was mainly Protestant. Did class come into it as well, with Hearts supporters at least viewing themselves as socially superior to Hibs fans - the 'away back tae yer bungalows' view?
When I was growing up in Niddrie in the 1960s and 70s, it would be correct to say that all Catholics were either Hibs, or Celtic, while Protestants were probably two to one for Hearts, with the remainder mostly Hibs. Some of the Protestants who supported Hearts were pretty anti-Catholic, but most didn't seem to be particularly bothered either way to be honest.
Have things changed? From my own observations, I would say that most people with an Irish Catholic background will still support us, or the lesser greens, but that the Protestant community has become more fragmented and that even the old east-west split has become less pronounced. It's more a combination of lots of different factors dictating who people support? Thoughts?

While no one can argue with with your own observations, they're yours after all, my thoughts are that you need to get out more and see what's actually happening.

What I find a wee bit concerning is that there are still people like you who appear to know the religions of all those around them. Can you tell us more about the teams the Catholic Muslims are most likely to support, or the Protestant Hindus?

[Golden Bear]

Hibs are a football club and the people who follow them are football fans.

That's all I'm really interested in.

[Thecat23]

I have no interest in religion and football together. I watch football for the football. In this day and age anyone who supports a club because they have say more "catholic" or vice versa are ****ing morons.

It's just a game for crying out loud. 22 players all playing their part to make sure they score more than the other team. The last thing on a players mind or mine while watching Hibs is "I wonder how many Catholics are here today."

Few posts of late talking about us and Celtic now this? Personally I think some folk are fishing if I'm honest.

Lets just leave that mob over in the west to do whatever they feel and leave this side to footballing matters.

[Brizo]

Id suggest we have had a very diverse support from well before WW2. Prof Tom Gallaghers book which is actually called Edinburgh Divided (is that where you got your thread title) and is about John Cormack and Protestant Action states that there were Leith based PA followers who were also Hibs fans. Given this was the 1930s, that shows to me we were a pretty diverse bunch within sixty years of our founding.

Today in this secular age things are pretty much a big melting pot. My memories of school fitba divisions are much like Miguels but nowadays with so many people of other and no faiths going to the Catholic schools there were plenty Jambos and a fair few huns at my kids RC schools.

Given Embras Irish Catholic immigration only accounted for 10% of the cities population I would say that we have quite a bit more than 10% of our support with that background. Id stress the word background as I know plenty boys with Irish surnames or Irish ancestry who are Protestant, atheist or agnostic who are proud of their and the clubs origins.

I know some but not many people with an Irish Catholic background who support the Hertz. I think they still have a substantial Section N element which maybe makes it uncomfortable for folk with that background to go to Tynie. In that regard we can be extremely proud that we are far more inclusive than them and have been for at least the last eighty years.

[Golden Bear]

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I have no interest in religion and football together. I watch football for the football. In this day and age anyone who supports a club because they have say more "catholic" or vice versa are ****ing morons.

It's just a game for crying out loud. 22 players all playing their part to make sure they score more than the other team. The last thing on a players mind or mine while watching Hibs is "I wonder how many Catholics are here today."

Few post of late talking about us and Celtic now this? Personally I think some folk are fishing if I'm honest.

Lets just leave that mob over in the west to do whatever they feel and leave this side to footballing matters.

I've noticed that myself. I can't think of the agenda but it's worth keeping an eye on.

[surreyhibbie]

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Hibs are football club and the people who follow them are football fans.

That's all I'm really interested in.

Yup, sums it up for me.

[blackpoolhibs]

I'm a catholic, although i say that very loosely, i don't go to church unless its a wedding or a funeral.

I support Hibs because my dad did and we were born in Leith. If my dad had been a gimp, i'd be one of them.

Who i support has nothing whatsoever to do with religion, and i don't know one Hibs fan it does?

[dangermouse]

Football is my religion, Hibs are my church.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

If you looked at the ancestry of all Hibs fans then it would make sense that a higher than normal proportion are catholic but I think that's where it ends in terms of whether we're a catholic club.

IMO, the majority of Hibs fans don't care about religious background and I'd say the same for Hearts fans. In general, I think religion is becoming a less important part of society and with less people going to church, the catholic element of our history has been dilouted to the point where it's barely noticeable.

Most football fans from Edinburgh don't care about religious background. And the minority - and it is a tiny minority - that make noise about it are wee neds who have probably never been to a religious service in years.

[Miguel]

My post isn't a fishing expedition.
I was just interested to what extent these divisions, which were once prominent, have declined in importance. Similar questions could be posed about political and geographic influences and motivations.

[Bill Milne]

Sectarianism is not a subject which bothers me as a Hibby, which is hard to explain to Tims in Glasgow who are convinced we are co-religionists and IRA supporters. Indeed, I would find it difficult to point at the people on my normal bus (Carlton) and identify them by religious affiliation, which is how it should be. Like a post on this thread, one of my uncles was an Orangeman and also secretary of the Portobello Hibs supporters branch.

[Golden Bear]

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My post isn't a fishing expedition.
I was just interested to what extent these divisions, which were once prominent, have declined in importance. Similar questions could be posed about political and geographic influences and motivations.

Ah - so you're a journalist?

[Bostonhibby]

Religion? Don't do it myself,its a factor in too much of the strife in the world, proud to be an aetheist. Never view my football team that Way. I am a Hibby born into a protestant family none of whom support Hearts very many Hibbies, one Hun.
Born in Leith, lived in East Edinburgh before moving.

Many Hibs friends, the real history for me is my connection with Hibs and Friendships and memories I have thanks to them.

Punt this thread and similar into a special religious section for those who see it as important?

[Lucius Apuleius]

Too bloody high falutin for me. I am a hibby. End of. My religous views matter not a whit.

[Matty_Jack04]

Hibs where originally formed as a club for Irish immigrants because they weren't allowed elsewhere I'd hardly call it 'catholic only' or sectarian because they made there own club it was the times that forced that play, the recently deceased Glasgow rangers however choose not to sign Catholics for a long period ending with mo Johnston I believe somewhere in the 80s,now that stinks a little of sectarianism.
I don't believe hibs have a problem with sectarianism,I've never heard anything at all whilst attending games to prove otherwise, I do think hearts have a issue but that's not my worry and it's nowhere near the scale of the 2 thru the west.

It's school playground stuff religion in football,prayed on by the people running the clubs in Glasgow for profit making not giving a moments thought to the social problems it causes, I'm delighted we have nothing to do with it

[JimBHibees]

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The original Hibernian club was sectarian in the sense that only practising Catholics could be involved with it. After we folded and were reborn, the club was consciously opened to the wider community. Its Catholicism and Irishness weakened over the years, and now it is only part of the club's identity.
As far as we know, there was no similar Protestant sectarianism at Hearts: they were simply just another Edinburgh football club. They may have attracted some militantly Protestant supporters, simply by dint of them being in opposition to Hibs. Today, there appears to be no overt emphasis on their Protestant credentials.
But...Perhaps it was more subtle than that.
Hearts, it is claimed, were the 'establishment' club. And the establishment was mainly Protestant. Did class come into it as well, with Hearts supporters at least viewing themselves as socially superior to Hibs fans - the 'away back tae yer bungalows' view?
When I was growing up in Niddrie in the 1960s and 70s, it would be correct to say that all Catholics were either Hibs, or Celtic, while Protestants were probably two to one for Hearts, with the remainder mostly Hibs. Some of the Protestants who supported Hearts were pretty anti-Catholic, but most didn't seem to be particularly bothered either way to be honest.
Have things changed? From my own observations, I would say that most people with an Irish Catholic background will still support us, or the lesser greens, but that the Protestant community has become more fragmented and that even the old east-west split has become less pronounced. It's more a combination of lots of different factors dictating who people support? Thoughts?

I think you are on the wind up, probably Yam or sevco.

[JimBHibees]

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I have no interest in religion and football together. I watch football for the football. In this day and age anyone who supports a club because they have say more "catholic" or vice versa are ****ing morons.

It's just a game for crying out loud. 22 players all playing their part to make sure they score more than the other team. The last thing on a players mind or mine while watching Hibs is "I wonder how many Catholics are here today."

Few posts of late talking about us and Celtic now this? Personally I think some folk are fishing if I'm honest.

Lets just leave that mob over in the west to do whatever they feel and leave this side to footballing matters.

Yep Yams probably trying to justify their small core of sectarian idiots.

[Brightside]

Religion has no place in football. If you are that way inclined keep it to your local church with all the other tin hats.

[Andy74]

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The original Hibernian club was sectarian in the sense that only practising Catholics could be involved with it. After we folded and were reborn, the club was consciously opened to the wider community. Its Catholicism and Irishness weakened over the years, and now it is only part of the club's identity.
As far as we know, there was no similar Protestant sectarianism at Hearts: they were simply just another Edinburgh football club. They may have attracted some militantly Protestant supporters, simply by dint of them being in opposition to Hibs. Today, there appears to be no overt emphasis on their Protestant credentials.
But...Perhaps it was more subtle than that.
Hearts, it is claimed, were the 'establishment' club. And the establishment was mainly Protestant. Did class come into it as well, with Hearts supporters at least viewing themselves as socially superior to Hibs fans - the 'away back tae yer bungalows' view?
When I was growing up in Niddrie in the 1960s and 70s, it would be correct to say that all Catholics were either Hibs, or Celtic, while Protestants were probably two to one for Hearts, with the remainder mostly Hibs. Some of the Protestants who supported Hearts were pretty anti-Catholic, but most didn't seem to be particularly bothered either way to be honest.
Have things changed? From my own observations, I would say that most people with an Irish Catholic background will still support us, or the lesser greens, but that the Protestant community has become more fragmented and that even the old east-west split has become less pronounced. It's more a combination of lots of different factors dictating who people support? Thoughts?

Not much point reading after the first line. Trying to associate a club that was formed by and for a particular community at the time with modern day sectariansim and all it has become is just daft.