Putting The Finger On It

[Speedway]

As research for this thread I was compiling a list of interviews from around Tommy Craig's time as caretaker up to last Saturday where various players, normally the new Tortolano and Hogg, couldn't just 'put their finger' on what was going wrong but backed the manager of the time to turn it around.

We've had so much of this not being able to put the finger on s***e performances that it's got on my thruppennies more than everything else that's wrong at the club.

Either the players are disingenuous or thick or unknowingly disingenuous because they're thick. Which is it?

How difficult is it to be able to put a finger on what's going wrong when you don't start games fast, you don't start them hungry for blood, you don't fight for possession, you don't see going in at half time being anything less than 3-0 up as a problem, you don't threaten to kill an opponent's family whilst waiting for a set piece to be taken and you basically only want to win, unless it requires effort?

Well, I have a present for the playing staff of Hibernian FC. I CAN put the finger on it. There is an absence of hunger, pride, fight, technique, confidence, trust in your team-mates and winning mental attitude generally. You're losers boys but's worse than that, you're losers who are, for the most part, comfy about being losers.

Performance related pay ONLY all round until this shower start winning games.

Can you put you're finger on it?

[Pedantic_Hibee]

Performance related pay is the way ahead, I've said that for years.

If I was a footballer (which I'm not thanks to my rock and roll lifestyle) and I was offered 2k a week basic or say 1k basic, 1k appearance fee and 1k win bonus, I'd take the latter.

Pride, dedication, ability and effort should be rewarded.

[TheFamous1875]

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Performance related pay is the way ahead, I've said that for years.

If I was a footballer (which I'm not thanks to my rock and roll lifestyle) and I was offered 2k a week basic or say 1k basic, 1k appearance fee and 1k win bonus, I'd take the latter.

Pride, dedication, ability and effort should be rewarded.

The Jim McLean way. It paid off (pun ahoy) for them, eh?

We as a club have to think outside the box and play the football inside it!!


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[Waxy]

The players aint giving 100 percent.
Some exceptions but we are underachieving because of this

[jacomo]

The entire club is underachieving. There seems to be an acceptance of mediocrity from the top down.

The biggest concern for me was the club inviting a group from LWT to help identify a "vision" from the club... this is very worrying. The vision should be clear, concise, and easily conveyed to anyone who is interested in it. The vision then defines the strategy - i.e. what are you going to do to realise the vision.

Rod Petrie is characterised as being inscrutable and a tough negotiator but the real problem is that Hibs seems to lack strong leadership.

[TheFamous1875]

I think regardless of how good, or bad you are, if you're a professional player, football is your JOB. You should give a million percent, be super fit, work on your game and get everything you can out of it, as it doesn't last forever.

I think it's a cultural thing. It seems to be the case with your typical footballer that they think they've got it made as soon as they're apprentices, money, VIP nightclubs, etc. our club should lead by example and make the players WORK for their riches. Really bleed them dry and make the most of them, as it should be.


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[hibbydog]

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As research for this thread I was compiling a list of interviews from around Tommy Craig's time as caretaker up to last Saturday where various players, normally the new Tortolano and Hogg, couldn't just 'put their finger' on what was going wrong but backed the manager of the time to turn it around.

We've had so much of this not being able to put the finger on s***e performances that it's got on my thruppennies more than everything else that's wrong at the club.

Either the players are disingenuous or thick or unknowingly disingenuous because they're thick. Which is it?

How difficult is it to be able to put a finger on what's going wrong when you don't start games fast, you don't start them hungry for blood, you don't fight for possession, you don't see going in at half time being anything less than 3-0 up as a problem, you don't threaten to kill an opponent's family whilst waiting for a set piece to be taken and you basically only want to win, unless it requires effort?

Well, I have a present for the playing staff of Hibernian FC. I CAN put the finger on it. There is an absence of hunger, pride, fight, technique, confidence, trust in your team-mates and winning mental attitude generally. You're losers boys but's worse than that, you're losers who are, for the most part, comfy about being losers.

Performance related pay ONLY all round until this shower start winning games.

Can you put you're finger on it?

Agreed. The players are soft to the core. Our Managers are generally weak, nice guys who accept poor performance and lack of dedication.

We don't need nice guys, or daft laddies who are happy to train once a day then spend their afternoons in Greggs/ the bookies/ playing their play stations.

We need ANIMALS who will fight, scrap and train like hell in order to retain the Privilege that is pulling on a Hibs jersey.

Massive change in culture needed.

[Northernhibee]

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As research for this thread I was compiling a list of interviews from around Tommy Craig's time as caretaker up to last Saturday where various players, normally the new Tortolano and Hogg, couldn't just 'put their finger' on what was going wrong but backed the manager of the time to turn it around.

We've had so much of this not being able to put the finger on s***e performances that it's got on my thruppennies more than everything else that's wrong at the club.

Either the players are disingenuous or thick or unknowingly disingenuous because they're thick. Which is it?

How difficult is it to be able to put a finger on what's going wrong when you don't start games fast, you don't start them hungry for blood, you don't fight for possession, you don't see going in at half time being anything less than 3-0 up as a problem, you don't threaten to kill an opponent's family whilst waiting for a set piece to be taken and you basically only want to win, unless it requires effort?

Well, I have a present for the playing staff of Hibernian FC. I CAN put the finger on it. There is an absence of hunger, pride, fight, technique, confidence, trust in your team-mates and winning mental attitude generally. You're losers boys but's worse than that, you're losers who are, for the most part, comfy about being losers.

Performance related pay ONLY all round until this shower start winning games.

Can you put you're finger on it?

That's not "putting your finger on it", that's name calling.

FWIW I believe that we've changed managers to little difference, we've changed players to little effect.

We need a board that has a real focus on creating a team of commited athletes and that all we do within the club is geared towards producing the best footballers we can and that the word of the manager is final, no compromise.

We also need to get over this ridiculous culture where every team has at least one scapegoat. Last year Spoony and Hanlon could do no right, this year it appears to be Vine, Lewis or Mullen. Rather than crush players confidence let's try and build it up.

Finally let's get a proper footballing figure to select a manager, not our current board.

[Dashing Bob S]

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The entire club is underachieving. There seems to be an acceptance of mediocrity from the top down.

The biggest concern for me was the club inviting a group from LWT to help identify a "vision" from the club... this is very worrying. The vision should be clear, concise, and easily conveyed to anyone who is interested in it. The vision then defines the strategy - i.e. what are you going to do to realise the vision.

Rod Petrie is characterised as being inscrutable and a tough negotiator but the real problem is that Hibs seems to lack strong leadership.

i don't buy that we have an acceptance of mediocrity culture, but right now I'd settle for scraping into the top six.

[TheFamous1875]

I'd like to see Stanton, or someone of that ilk in a DoF capacity. Someone you KNOW knows football. We know Petrie doesn't.


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[lucky]

In this day and age of money football, no one will sign for Hibs if we were they only club on PRP. If the players are as lazy as some are making out why would they sign for Hibs? If there was guaranteed easy money available at other clubs then why would anyone sign?

[TheFamous1875]

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In this day and age of money football, no one will sign for Hibs if we were they only club on PRP. If the players are as lazy as some are making out why would they sign for Hibs? If there was guaranteed easy money available at other clubs then why would anyone sign?

Good point, but what if we paid them what we pay now, and the incentives for winning, scoring etc were on top of that? If we did well it would cost us more, but if we do well we make more money!


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[Viva_Palmeiras]

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The entire club is underachieving. There seems to be an acceptance of mediocrity from the top down.

The biggest concern for me was the club inviting a group from LWT to help identify a "vision" from the club... this is very worrying. The vision should be clear, concise, and easily conveyed to anyone who is interested in it. The vision then defines the strategy - i.e. what are you going to do to realise the vision.

Rod Petrie is characterised as being inscrutable and a tough negotiator but the real problem is that Hibs seems to lack strong leadership.

.

[GreenPJ]

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As research for this thread I was compiling a list of interviews from around Tommy Craig's time as caretaker up to last Saturday where various players, normally the new Tortolano and Hogg, couldn't just 'put their finger' on what was going wrong but backed the manager of the time to turn it around.

We've had so much of this not being able to put the finger on s***e performances that it's got on my thruppennies more than everything else that's wrong at the club.

Either the players are disingenuous or thick or unknowingly disingenuous because they're thick. Which is it?

How difficult is it to be able to put a finger on what's going wrong when you don't start games fast, you don't start them hungry for blood, you don't fight for possession, you don't see going in at half time being anything less than 3-0 up as a problem, you don't threaten to kill an opponent's family whilst waiting for a set piece to be taken and you basically only want to win, unless it requires effort?

Well, I have a present for the playing staff of Hibernian FC. I CAN put the finger on it. There is an absence of hunger, pride, fight, technique, confidence, trust in your team-mates and winning mental attitude generally. You're losers boys but's worse than that, you're losers who are, for the most part, comfy about being losers.

Performance related pay ONLY all round until this shower start winning games.

Can you put you're finger on it?

I thought the club and the packages being put to players was more akin to a performance related basis - ie relatively low basic supplemented with appearance and win bonus?

[jacomo]

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i don't buy that we have an acceptance of mediocrity culture, but right now I'd settle for scraping into the top six.

Good thing about the split is that, once you've made the top six, you don't really need to turn up for the final five games of the season, as you're guaranteed that top half finish.

Personally, another nice day out at Hampden would be smashing! Is it dreaming to think we could make it three in a row?

[jacomo]

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.

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not having a go at anyone involved in LWT. I think it's been a wholly positive development.

But the impression I get is that the club lacks direction.

[Northern Hibby]

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As research for this thread I was compiling a list of interviews from around Tommy Craig's time as caretaker up to last Saturday where various players, normally the new Tortolano and Hogg, couldn't just 'put their finger' on what was going wrong but backed the manager of the time to turn it around.

We've had so much of this not being able to put the finger on s***e performances that it's got on my thruppennies more than everything else that's wrong at the club.

Either the players are disingenuous or thick or unknowingly disingenuous because they're thick. Which is it?

How difficult is it to be able to put a finger on what's going wrong when you don't start games fast, you don't start them hungry for blood, you don't fight for possession, you don't see going in at half time being anything less than 3-0 up as a problem, you don't threaten to kill an opponent's family whilst waiting for a set piece to be taken and you basically only want to win, unless it requires effort?

Well, I have a present for the playing staff of Hibernian FC. I CAN put the finger on it. There is an absence of hunger, pride, fight, technique, confidence, trust in your team-mates and winning mental attitude generally. You're losers boys but's worse than that, you're losers who are, for the most part, comfy about being losers.

Performance related pay ONLY all round until this shower start winning games.

Can you put you're finger on it?

My fingers on East Mains to cushy, not training in real environment Easter Road seems alien to them!

Maybe driving round in a van looking for a training ground built team spirit ?

[hhibs]

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The Jim McLean way. It paid off (pun ahoy) for them, eh?

We as a club have to think outside the box and play the football inside it!!


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I believe that there was this type approach under Turnbull and that at the time Hibs win bonus system was similar to the gruesome twosome of the time and indeed higher than the lesser greens.

I could be wrong on this but seem to remember some media coverage on this at the time but..................it was a long time ago and my memory is likely failing me............again.

[RIP]

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The entire club is underachieving. There seems to be an acceptance of mediocrity from the top down.

The biggest concern for me was the club inviting a group from LWT to help identify a "vision" from the club... this is very worrying. The vision should be clear, concise, and easily conveyed to anyone who is interested in it. The vision then defines the strategy - i.e. what are you going to do to realise the vision.

Rod Petrie is characterised as being inscrutable and a tough negotiator but the real problem is that Hibs seems to lack strong leadership.

Sorry Jacomo but that's wrong way round. In the early meetings my brother, Baldy Foghorn and I all asked Scott/Fyfe about their Vision and Strategy for the club. Their answer was top 4. They didnae get it. So when we set up the structure of LWT and split into 5 teams we called one Vision. Some excellent volunteers pitched up, brainstormed ideas and then worked with new director Brian Houston to refine those ideas into a programme. Matty Fairnie presented to the board at the end of last season and it was enthusiastically received.

Nobody invited us to do it - we just did it because it needed doing

[HFC 0-7]

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Performance related pay is the way ahead, I've said that for years.

If I was a footballer (which I'm not thanks to my rock and roll lifestyle) and I was offered 2k a week basic or say 1k basic, 1k appearance fee and 1k win bonus, I'd take the latter.

Pride, dedication, ability and effort should be rewarded.

I bet you wouldnt. Appearance related pay for footballers is a rubbish way to try and get them to play well especially if everyone is on it. What will happen is players will become very afraid of injuries. they will also be afraid of booking and sendings off. Add to that what if you find your frozen out the day after signing the contract because the next star of football has just come through the ranks or been bought and he plays in your position!!

What if you are the model pro, try your heart out every game but the rest of the team is rubbish? you dont get the Win bonuses, you start moaning at your team because they arent good enough and then there is turmoil in the ranks.

then there is close season when you wont be appearing and you wont have the chance to win and all you have is your basic and nothing to do about it.

[HFC 0-7]

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I think regardless of how good, or bad you are, if you're a professional player, football is your JOB. You should give a million percent, be super fit, work on your game and get everything you can out of it, as it doesn't last forever.

I think it's a cultural thing. It seems to be the case with your typical footballer that they think they've got it made as soon as they're apprentices, money, VIP nightclubs, etc. our club should lead by example and make the players WORK for their riches. Really bleed them dry and make the most of them, as it should be.


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Think you have it all wrong. Because football is your JOB, you should give a million percent etc etc etc. Do you do that in your job? I dont, I could always do a bit more but choose not to, usually because I cant be bothered. I bet there are a lot more people in the same boat as me!

Footballers shouldnt be doing it because its their job, they should be doing it because they have pride in the club and what it means to the fans and community. Personally I think its because they see it as their job now that we are not seeing the fight and passion.

[MADE IN LEITH]

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Sorry Jacomo but that's wrong way round. In the early meetings my brother, Baldy Foghorn and I all asked Scott/Fyfe about their Vision and Strategy for the club. Their answer was top 4. They didnae get it. So when we set up the structure of LWT and split into 5 teams we called one Vision. Some excellent volunteers pitched up, brainstormed ideas and then worked with new director Brian Houston to refine those ideas into a programme. Matty Fairnie presented to the board at the end of last season and it was enthusiastically received.

Nobody invited us to do it - we just did it because it needed doing

What is strategy anyway and how does it fit in with the workings of a football club?

What is the entities vision?
What are the obstacles that will hinder or stop the entity realising that vision?
How does the entity remove those obstacles?

Achieve all of the above and your strategy has been successful.

Yes, the above is not as simple as it looks.

[lord bunberry]

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Think you have it all wrong. Because football is your JOB, you should give a million percent etc etc etc. Do you do that in your job? I dont, I could always do a bit more but choose not to, usually because I cant be bothered. I bet there are a lot more people in the same boat as me!

Footballers shouldnt be doing it because its their job, they should be doing it because they have pride in the club and what it means to the fans and community. Personally I think its because they see it as their job now that we are not seeing the fight and passion.

If you do a wee bit extra in your work will another company come and offer to triple your wages?

[TheFamous1875]

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Think you have it all wrong. Because football is your JOB, you should give a million percent etc etc etc. Do you do that in your job? I dont, I could always do a bit more but choose not to, usually because I cant be bothered. I bet there are a lot more people in the same boat as me!

Footballers shouldnt be doing it because its their job, they should be doing it because they have pride in the club and what it means to the fans and community. Personally I think its because they see it as their job now that we are not seeing the fight and passion.

I think it's fairly easy for me to say that if I were a fraction as lucky or as talented as these guys are, my life would be dedicated to it so I could be my very best. For the club, the fans and the community.

Not only is it their job, it's their vocation. Be yer best! And the part the club can play is to make this determination and dedication the norm, the minimum. As it is at yer United's and yer Barca's.


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[MADE IN LEITH]

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If you do a wee bit extra in your work will another company come and offer to triple your wages?

Too true mate, that's what separates the Ronald's and Messi's from the mediocre players who are on a pittance. I know I am paid quite well at work and always go that extra mile and I am rewarded for it more than some of the minions who just do the minimum, come in late and are off on the sick all the time.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

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I'd like to see Stanton, or someone of that ilk in a DoF capacity. Someone you KNOW knows football. We know Petrie doesn't.


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Posted on the Newcastle thread...

Fans still waiting for Kinnear to deliver on promises
As Newcastle prepare to start their season at title favourites Manchester City, Mike Calvin assesses the discord behind the scenes.




By Mike Calvin
Sports writer
Last updated: 19 August 2013, 10:05 BST


Newcastle director of football Joe Kinnear with the club's new loan signing Loic Remy. Picture: Getty Images


Most football clubs devote time, money and intellectual energy to the art of management. At Newcastle United, they turn it into a custard pie fight.


THWACK. Owner Mike Ashley appoints Joe Kinnear, JFK of legend, as director of football. This cerebral figure succeeds in insulting everyone’s intelligence, without disguising his broader ambitions.


SPLOSH. Alan Pardew, a fine manager and an exceptional coach, is obliged to maintain the pretence that he has an effective working relationship with a man whose promises of an assertive, British-based recruitment policy remain unrealised.


KAPOW. Newcastle’s season begins at Manchester City tonight. JFK’s only signing, loanee Loic Remy, is injured and will be unavailable for a month. Pardew’s plea for an additional striker remains unanswered, despite interest in Lyon’s Bafetimbi Gomis.


Little wonder Newcastle fans don’t know whether to laugh or cry. Their passion for the club is one of the few consistent factors at an institution which refuses to conform to normality.


The talent is there. Plenty of clubs covet such players as goalkeeper Tim Krul, central defender Fabricio Coloccini, and playmaker Yohan Cabaye. Hatem Ben Arfa, if fit and firing, is a creative player of limitless possibilities.


Pardew has addressed the weaknesses of the club’s backroom staff by employing conditioning expert Faye Downey. Having worked with her in Olympic sport, I can confirm she is one of the best in her trade.


He has to define the best role for Moussa Sissoko, and come up with a way to convince Cheick Tioté that his regular holidays, as a result of suspensions triggered by numerous yellow cards, are harming his reputation, and his career.


Tonight will be tough. City have goals in every area of the team, and deserve to be regarded as marginal title favourites. As for Newcastle, it might be wise for the fans to begin clearing their throats for a quick chorus of "Stand up if you hate Kinnear."

[rcarter1]

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Agreed. The players are soft to the core. Our Managers are generally weak, nice guys who accept poor performance and lack of dedication.

We don't need nice guys, or daft laddies who are happy to train once a day then spend their afternoons in Greggs/ the bookies/ playing their play stations.

We need ANIMALS who will fight, scrap and train like hell in order to retain the Privilege that is pulling on a Hibs jersey.

Massive change in culture needed.

This is unfortunately the philosophy of our neighbours - it gets the job done more than ours: 'the lets look good while we think we are playing football, but in fact are getting our ass kicked'

[hibbymick]

I wonder if Petries getting paid yet

[steakbake]

Soft. We have a fun day out at a cup final, we're looking for a bit of "luck" to change our fortunes, we treated the European game as a distraction and have kind of glossed over the result and we're happy to be slightly less bad year on year to justify keeping a manager in his job.

[jacomo]

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Sorry Jacomo but that's wrong way round. In the early meetings my brother, Baldy Foghorn and I all asked Scott/Fyfe about their Vision and Strategy for the club. Their answer was top 4. They didnae get it. So when we set up the structure of LWT and split into 5 teams we called one Vision. Some excellent volunteers pitched up, brainstormed ideas and then worked with new director Brian Houston to refine those ideas into a programme. Matty Fairnie presented to the board at the end of last season and it was enthusiastically received.

Nobody invited us to do it - we just did it because it needed doing

I understand your point and thanks for the clarification.

What I was trying to get at (not very clearly) is this: why, after 20 years under one owner, does it need a group of fans, working with a director, to start doing this work?

As is often said, Barca have a philosophy that runs through the club, so that every team from kids up to first team plays a system based loosely on 4-3-3.

Swansea was rebuilt from the ground up, again with a clear philosophy, so that a succession of coaches - Paulo Sousa, Martinez, Rodgers, Laudrup - have come in with roughly the same outlook on the game. This meant each new manager built on what had happened before.

I just don't see this with Hibs. Allegedly we are supposed to favour 'fast, flowing football', but the last two managerial appointments seemed opposed to this philosophy.