Resurrection of HOH

[WHUHibs]

Quite a few of the original members are around still, some of which are on hibs.net.

In addition to this we were a movement whom the board feared so much so they had to employ tactics which were at times a little underhand. Whether people agreed with it or not we were an affective protest movement. Questions could be raised that Rod embraced LWT but keeps it at arms length to nullify discontent.

I don't want to say LWT is not working but I'm sure most would agree despite the supports expertise they are not utilised to its maximum. Gogs and the group are fantastic but rather than boycotts etc where a movement could demand and bring about change. Some type of fans ownership or representation on the board would give us a voice. The current non executives might be hibs faithful but they don't not represent a fans movement and if they have balls why not stand up and be counted. Perhaps they do but silence is deafening!!

Change has to happen or mediocrity will continue and blind faith as to stop...

[WHUHibs]

Hijacking a meeting at accountants with press photography on something that should have been private thus scaring off a potential investor. Hiring two pr companies to combat Brian monteith and questioning real fans motives who wanted the best for Hibs, open debate...I'm not going to say everything we did was right but as Hibbies and professional people we wanted to have a voice...HOH was free for everyone to get involved..a great group of like minded hibbies ,,at onetime we had over 3000 members from memory..

[DaveF]

Was there not a bitter split in the HOH camp towards the end or am I dreaming that up?

It's an interesting idea given the longevity of this slump we are in......

[WHUHibs]

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Was there not a bitter split in the HOH camp towards the end or am I dreaming that up?

It's an interesting idea given the longevity of this slump we are in......

Not really Dave,,,Brian left to go into politics, Charlie concentrated on his album and song writing,,most of the rest of us had business commitments and when the team started to do well people fell back into normal life. HOH was originally set up to safeguard Hibs future, movement against STF was part of that reason I.e 250 k loan to buy the club, the overseeing the enormous spend on the famous five stand which was ridiculous ..and Rod was seen as a bean counter,,,Rod to be fair has done well in managing costs and time would tell if that was right,,most of us felt their were other options other than Kennedy and Jack Walkers number two was a credible alternative. Sitting where we are today people will argue about the great stadium, super training academy,,how was it paid for,,well did Petrie and co get lucky with the golden generation or was it all own to good book work..for me personally I think we got lucky, some good accounting but we are run by a non existent owner who allows an excellent accountant to run the club. Of course Rod also runs other companies which he buys and sells with other investors...that's his right,,but he is at the helm of a large club that under achieves,,,and as a supporter who goes week in and week out I'm not happy,,,,simply my opinion...

[WHUHibs]

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Was there not a bitter split in the HOH camp towards the end or am I dreaming that up?

It's an interesting idea given the longevity of this slump we are in......

If I felt I could get the support of people willing to invest time I would consider doing this again...but it would have to have popular support for credible change.....not a mouthpiece that had no substance,,,if it was to be done it would certainly be a challenge,,first thing to do would be to meet Rod and STF and he would not like that and his PR machine would go into overdrive...I'm up for the challenge,,,after all positive change is needed,,,

[RIP]

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If I felt I could get the support of people willing to invest time I would consider doing this again...but it would have to have popular support for credible change.....not a mouthpiece that had no substance,,,if it was to be done it would certainly be a challenge,,first thing to do would be to meet Rod and STF and he would not like that and his PR machine would go into overdrive...I'm up for the challenge,,,after all positive change is needed,,,

Mr S you have a pm

[fatbloke]

What he said in the OP

[WHUHibs]

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Mr S you have a pm

Got it,,,

[WHUHibs]

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What he said in the OP

[Pretty Boy]

I've posted this already but feel it's a valid point.

What worries me is that a group like HOH would be painted as a negative group of troublemakers by the club whilst LWT would be used as a pawn in a game and 'marketed' as a positive group willing to work with the club.

I would worry that a support that already looks like it's beginning to fracture would be split completely and that can't be good.

[greenlex]

Personally Ithink LWT has to have a chance to bear fruit. Hw long has it been on the go? Not long enough. These guys are speaking with the custodians of the club regularly. Two games into the league campaign I think a resurrection of HOH is knee jerk. Fenlon in my opinion has to go but there s an argument for more time. His football isn't great and results speak for there selves but do we know what the full remit was regarding he shaping of he club as a whole was for example? I think the drinking culture etc is being turned around if not already done. It's a no from me.

[WHUHibs]

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I've posted this already but feel it's a valid point.

What worries me is that a group like HOH would be painted as a negative group of troublemakers by the club whilst LWT would be used as a pawn in a game and 'marketed' as a positive group willing to work with the club.

I would worry that a support that already looks like it's beginning to fracture would be split completely and that can't be good.

Fair point and wouldn't disagree,,,PR machine at ER is quite good at that ,,,have to say that I would not want to dilute the good work Gogs and the rest if the group have done,,

[WHUHibs]

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Personally Ithink LWT has to have a chance to bear fruit. Hw long has it been on the go? Not long enough. These guys are speaking with the custodians of the club regularly. Two games into the league campaign I think a resurrection of HOH is knee jerk. Fenlon in my opinion has to go but there s an argument for more time. His football isn't great and results speak for there selves but do we know what the full remit was regarding he shaping of he club as a whole was for example? I think the drinking culture etc is being turned around if not already done. It's a no from me.

I don't thinks its a knee jerk as this malaise has been going on for a long time,,,but it's good to get additional options

It's good to gather opinions as I'm against a boycott but at the same time things have to change...LWT might be the answer as they are working with custodians ,,,however,,,,,,do the custodians need to change that's a bigger question,,,,

[Jonnyboy]

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I don't thinks its a knee jerk as this malaise has been going on for a long time,,,but it's good to get additional options

It's good to gather opinions as I'm against a boycott but at the same time things have to change...LWT might be the answer as they are working with custodians ,,,however,,,,,,do the custodians need to change that's a bigger question,,,,

Are you not a member of the LWT?

[WHUHibs]

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Are you not a member of the LWT?

We are all members of LWT ,,,,just posing a thoughtful question

[RIP]

LWT was started by supporters seeking a change in the way the club is run.

As the old adage goes better inside the tent pis sing out than outside the tent pis sing in

Of course there is a degree of bull but the management we work with are all dyed in the wool Hibbies who have the best interest of the club in their Hearts. However some aren't engaged and although the Chairman doesn't attend I always feel his presence hanging over every decision. The Commercial team are great though, we've worked on several projects together and there are more to come.

I would love to report that visiting Easter Road emerges you in football but that's the problem IMO. What little football takes place at Hibs is 25 miles away in East Lothian

[Jonnyboy]

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We are all members of LWT ,,,,just posing a thoughtful question

Indeed we are but we're not all on working parties

[oregonhibby]

What is exactly would it's aim be?

If it is simply regime change how do you know it will be any better?

Let us look first at what is positive:

1 A completed home.
2 A training centre we own.
3 A financial structure that is sustainable. The debt is mostly mortgage, although there will be increased debt because of lack of on-field performance and the money spent on changing managers and buying new managers players. The only team outside the old firm spending money on new players - apparently.
4 An owner who wants it to run sustainably.

Now what is negative:

1 A team that performs poorly and below what we expect.
2 A series of managers who have failed to get Hibs playing the way we want and performing better in the league.
3 A team that does not play in the Hibernian style.

Apart from McCartney (nearly 90 years ago), Shaw (Nearly 70 years ago), Turnbull (nearly 40 years ago) most other managers have been, well pretty poor (no doubt John will correct me here). Hibernian style - well if we look over the last 40 years that has been mostly very poor and on the wrong side of a drubbing.

McLeish and Mowbray were short busts of sunlight and lets be frank not as successful as we may imagine - so what would you do in the first 90 days if you were elected new manager. You can't criticise the positives because they are self evident. You could change the football structure? SO does that really need HoH? LWT has at least the Board working with them. If Rod does not pitch up then go and see him. If you want to change the culture then change the people, yes. How will you do that because that is not just the management it is the players too - how much money do you have?

If you want rid of Rod the go and see STF - but don't hold your breath. If you want rid of STF then go along and outline your plans, your finances and your sustainability financially. As we are seeing at Hearts - its not buying it, it is the cash needed to run it - takes 7 years before your house is safe if you transfer it into trust or to your other half (might be 5 no doubt a lawyer out there will correct me).

Then all you have to do is run it and get success - why? Because the fans expect it. There is no hiding place and these guys do it week in week out and take the abuse.

Work with the Board and help them see the light. As you said earlier with HoH, when results got better things broke up a bit. But as any really good organisational change person knows, that is exactly the time to reinforce change and keep the pressure on.

Just my view.

Also if you are already on the inside on a working group with LWT then you need to open up and say exactly what you mean there and not here. Again, just my view.

I am not happy with the result, there again since 1967 there have been longer periods I have been unhappy. I am a Hibby, it all comes with the job description. I posted earlier that the best years are behind us, I still believe that.

Oh for the Scottish Cup!

[jodjam]

Excellent post OH

[greenlex]

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I don't thinks its a knee jerk as this malaise has been going on for a long time,,,but it's good to get additional options

It's good to gather opinions as I'm against a boycott but at the same time things have to change...LWT might be the answer as they are working with custodians ,,,however,,,,,,do the custodians need to change that's a bigger question,,,,

Do you really think there is a malaise at board level? Petrie has gone through managers at a steady rate. If there was a malaise and an acceptance of so called medoicracy then Hughes would still e here.
I think there is a will to progress its the rate of progression and the style of it that's the problem. I don't think Fenlon is the answer but we are now facing a stick of twist situation two games into the season. Fenlon wont
be here after this season barring silverware or changing the football to Brazilian like. Neither are likely but is it financially worth the change? If gates fall it will set us back another five years. I reckon Frnlons got another couple of games and Petrie will have started to talk to successors in any case for next season if not earlier.
I don't think we actually need change at the top but they do need some help.

[Beefster]

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Fair point and wouldn't disagree,,,PR machine at ER is quite good at that ,,,have to say that I would not want to dilute the good work Gogs and the rest if the group have done,,

So why not join LWT at their next meeting? I could understand the desire to set up another group if you had engaged the club through LWT and, after trying hard, got frustrated or just gave up but not if you haven't gone down that route.

I presume that you were one of the founders and drivers of HOH from the way you're talking?

[DaveF]

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What is exactly would it's aim be?

If it is simply regime change how do you know it will be any better?

Let us look first at what is positive:

1 A completed home.
2 A training centre we own.
3 A financial structure that is sustainable. The debt is mostly mortgage, although there will be increased debt because of lack of on-field performance and the money spent on changing managers and buying new managers players. The only team outside the old firm spending money on new players - apparently.
4 An owner who wants it to run sustainably.

Now what is negative:

1 A team that performs poorly and below what we expect.
2 A series of managers who have failed to get Hibs playing the way we want and performing better in the league.
3 A team that does not play in the Hibernian style.

Apart from McCartney (nearly 90 years ago), Shaw (Nearly 70 years ago), Turnbull (nearly 40 years ago) most other managers have been, well pretty poor (no doubt John will correct me here). Hibernian style - well if we look over the last 40 years that has been mostly very poor and on the wrong side of a drubbing.

McLeish and Mowbray were short busts of sunlight and lets be frank not as successful as we may imagine - so what would you do in the first 90 days if you were elected new manager. You can't criticise the positives because they are self evident. You could change the football structure? SO does that really need HoH? LWT has at least the Board working with them. If Rod does not pitch up then go and see him. If you want to change the culture then change the people, yes. How will you do that because that is not just the management it is the players too - how much money do you have?

If you want rid of Rod the go and see STF - but don't hold your breath. If you want rid of STF then go along and outline your plans, your finances and your sustainability financially. As we are seeing at Hearts - its not buying it, it is the cash needed to run it - takes 7 years before your house is safe if you transfer it into trust or to your other half (might be 5 no doubt a lawyer out there will correct me).

Then all you have to do is run it and get success - why? Because the fans expect it. There is no hiding place and these guys do it week in week out and take the abuse.

Work with the Board and help them see the light. As you said earlier with HoH, when results got better things broke up a bit. But as any really good organisational change person knows, that is exactly the time to reinforce change and keep the pressure on.

Just my view.

Also if you are already on the inside on a working group with LWT then you need to open up and say exactly what you mean there and not here. Again, just my view.

I am not happy with the result, there again since 1967 there have been longer periods I have been unhappy. I am a Hibby, it all comes with the job description. I posted earlier that the best years are behind us, I still believe that.

Oh for the Scottish Cup!

That's a good post, but if the board can't see the miserable football, the apathy in the stands and the slide downwards we are on (again) then the light must be right in their eyes and blinding them.

It's widely acknowledged that RP has done a great job from a business perspective but as a football club we are failing. We are behind the likes of ICT, St Johnstone and Motherwell. If they (the board) can't see it then no amount of working with them is going to help is it?

[WHUHibs]

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Do you really think there is a malaise at board level? Petrie has gone through managers at a steady rate. If there was a malaise and an acceptance of so called medoicracy then Hughes would still e here.
I think there is a will to progress its the rate of progression and the style of it that's the problem. I don't think Fenlon is the answer but we are now facing a stick of twist situation two games into the season. Fenlon wont
be here after this season barring silverware or changing the football to Brazilian like. Neither are likely but is it financially worth the change? If gates fall it will set us back another five years. I reckon Frnlons got another couple of games and Petrie will have started to talk to successors in any case for next season if not earlier.
I don't think we actually need change at the top but they do need some help.

Just a point,,malaise probably was a wrong word,,,do you think working with RP who has been instrumental in choosing managers should be blameless and LWT will not be able to change that. I am suggesting ideas of how we can influence the ownership and not just working with the current board. I fail to see how a club of our size with the support, infrastructure, commitment of good fans is still behind clubs such as ICT, Motherwell and so on in year in year out standings and performance. If with our infrastructure on a larger scale should dominate these teams. I was horrified last year, jumping on a plane from holland renting a car getting to Ross County on a cold winters evening with a few hundred hardy hibbies thinking do we deserve better. A small club, with a small stadium but big ambition.

We are a big club with in my view small ambition but then again we are all entitled to an opinion that happens to be mine. Perhaps I am wrong to expect more? Transition in hibs vocabulary is not just one season it's,,,,,,,,every season!

[WHUHibs]

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So why not join LWT at their next meeting? I could understand the desire to set up another group if you had engaged the club through LWT and, after trying hard, got frustrated or just gave up but not if you haven't gone down that route.

I presume that you were one of the founders and drivers of HOH from the way you're talking?

Yes I was but that does not cloud my judgement. In the day it was started it was the right thing to do and today perhaps LWT is ....but I have been involved in various ways at the club and yes I am frustrated,,but I'm sure we all are..doesn't mean I won't continue to he where possible,,but is there also another way,,

My frustration is the silence of the non executives who are hibbies,,,should they not be more vocal or is all PR restricted to controlled statements,,I would if I was in their position be far more vocal and communicative...just my opinion..

[WHUHibs]

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What is exactly would it's aim be?

If it is simply regime change how do you know it will be any better?

Let us look first at what is positive:

1 A completed home.
2 A training centre we own.
3 A financial structure that is sustainable. The debt is mostly mortgage, although there will be increased debt because of lack of on-field performance and the money spent on changing managers and buying new managers players. The only team outside the old firm spending money on new players - apparently.
4 An owner who wants it to run sustainably.

Now what is negative:

1 A team that performs poorly and below what we expect.
2 A series of managers who have failed to get Hibs playing the way we want and performing better in the league.
3 A team that does not play in the Hibernian style.

Apart from McCartney (nearly 90 years ago), Shaw (Nearly 70 years ago), Turnbull (nearly 40 years ago) most other managers have been, well pretty poor (no doubt John will correct me here). Hibernian style - well if we look over the last 40 years that has been mostly very poor and on the wrong side of a drubbing.

McLeish and Mowbray were short busts of sunlight and lets be frank not as successful as we may imagine - so what would you do in the first 90 days if you were elected new manager. You can't criticise the positives because they are self evident. You could change the football structure? SO does that really need HoH? LWT has at least the Board working with them. If Rod does not pitch up then go and see him. If you want to change the culture then change the people, yes. How will you do that because that is not just the management it is the players too - how much money do you have?

If you want rid of Rod the go and see STF - but don't hold your breath. If you want rid of STF then go along and outline your plans, your finances and your sustainability financially. As we are seeing at Hearts - its not buying it, it is the cash needed to run it - takes 7 years before your house is safe if you transfer it into trust or to your other half (might be 5 no doubt a lawyer out there will correct me).

Then all you have to do is run it and get success - why? Because the fans expect it. There is no hiding place and these guys do it week in week out and take the abuse.

Work with the Board and help them see the light. As you said earlier with HoH, when results got better things broke up a bit. But as any really good organisational change person knows, that is exactly the time to reinforce change and keep the pressure on.

Just my view.

Also if you are already on the inside on a working group with LWT then you need to open up and say exactly what you mean there and not here. Again, just my view.

I am not happy with the result, there again since 1967 there have been longer periods I have been unhappy. I am a Hibby, it all comes with the job description. I posted earlier that the best years are behind us, I still believe that.

Oh for the Scottish Cup!

Being a hibby isn't easy

[Gustavo Fring]

something needs to change at easter road . its been painfully obvious for a whie now . it might take something like the revival of HoH before anyone will start to listen up

[chippy]

Great idea to restart an independent action group count me in. My aspirations are for the fans to seriously change the direction of our great club. The only sure way to do this is for us fans to start to move toward fan ownership. This will take time but we could build up a campaign to show our fan base that such a thing is possible and desirable. Who knows maybe the current owners might want to engage as they have surely lost any appetite they may have once had to drive Hibs forward. Maybe a buy out over a few years might interest them because we are told that no one else wants to buy us. Could we envisage 5000 fans paying an initial £500 to £1000 joining fee and then an annual £100 membership fee to say own half of Hibs assuming a full purchase price of £10 million. For that we pick the board. If someone wants on the board they have to have something to offer either cash or business nouse. I think we have a massive residual fan base that would in time come round to a scheme such as this and maybe STF could facilitate the transition. He could get some dough out of it and we get the club back forever. I think fan ownership is the way ahead for Scotland and that a dialogue between all the fan groups across all clubs could result in better reforms of league structures so the fans control the game more.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

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Great idea to restart an independent action group count me in. My aspirations are for the fans to seriously change the direction of our great club. The only sure way to do this is for us fans to start to move toward fan ownership. This will take time but we could build up a campaign to show our fan base that such a thing is possible and desirable. Who knows maybe the current owners might want to engage as they have surely lost any appetite they may have once had to drive Hibs forward. Maybe a buy out over a few years might interest them because we are told that no one else wants to buy us. Could we envisage 5000 fans paying an initial £500 to £1000 joining fee and then an annual £100 membership fee to say own half of Hibs assuming a full purchase price of £10 million. For that we pick the board. If someone wants on the board they have to have something to offer either cash or business nouse. I think we have a massive residual fan base that would in time come round to a scheme such as this and maybe STF could facilitate the transition. He could get some dough out of it and we get the club back forever. I think fan ownership is the way ahead for Scotland and that a dialogue between all the fan groups across all clubs could result in better reforms of league structures so the fans control the game more.

Fan ownership is an interesting one. Folks will cite how to raise funds to purchase but ongoing is the challenge. I suppose if you don't try you'll never know and perversely perhaps the clubs forced into fan ownership will be ahead of the others in the learning curve.

That said you seem to be looking at the macro level - fans controlling the structure and "the game" (not too sure what controlling the game means tho'?). But what about the micro/club level?

Id imagine The biggest challenges for fan ownership for Hibs would include the transition and putting in place the correct governance/ownership models so decisions can be effectively made.

One thought does strike me - Does having the status quo versus fan ownership give a competitive advantage (ie with the current structure can we entice a better standard of player since income is more stable, guarantors in place?)

Anyway So imagine we get instant fan ownership and fans with expertise onboard (who'll all be in it for the love of Hibs only) we then entice Pat Nevin in a non-exec consultants role he advises us to keep Fenlon? We also get a possibility of key funding from the US but they'd want more influence? The folks we get on board are not as experienced as the current board members they replace or they are better and yet the football side is a let-down as the football gods conspire against us (yet again!).

if the above comes across as as anti that is not my intention I'm open-minded on this. I just feel its important to make informed decisions and its helpful to consider certain scenarios whilst avoiding paralysis by analysis.

[chippy]

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Fan ownership is an interesting one. Folks will cite how to raise funds to purchase but ongoing is the challenge. I suppose if you don't try you'll never know and perversely perhaps the clubs forced into fan ownership will be ahead of the others in the learning curve.

That said you seem to be looking at the macro level - fans controlling the structure and "the game" (not too sure what controlling the game means tho'?). But what about the micro/club level?

Id imagine The biggest challenges for fan ownership for Hibs would include the transition and putting in place the correct governance/ownership models so decisions can be effectively made.

One thought does strike me - Does having the status quo versus fan ownership give a competitive advantage (ie with the current structure can we entice a better standard of player since income is more stable, guarantors in place?)

Anyway So imagine we get instant fan ownership and fans with expertise onboard (who'll all be in it for the love of Hibs only) we then entice Pat Nevin in a non-exec consultants role he advises us to keep Fenlon? We also get a possibility of key funding from the US but they'd want more influence? The folks we get on board are not as experienced as the current board members they replace or they are better and yet the football side is a let-down as the football gods conspire against us (yet again!).

if the above comes across as as anti that is not my intention I'm open-minded on this. I just feel its important to make informed decisions and its helpful to consider certain scenarios whilst avoiding paralysis by analysis.

5000 Hibs fans won't elect idiots to run the club- if they are rubbish they get replaced. We are all then involved on the venture. No fat cat salaries or top heavy execs or other staff. Volunteers could do many tasks alongside a slimmed down professional football and managerial staff .
I can't see nor would want 5000 Hibs members selling out to investors once we get our hands on the club. The current regime is stagnating and the only people that can change things are us. I would not be surprised if RP and STF are hoping for a fans buy out - who else would buy us? I hate to say it but it was a smart move by the hearts fans to set up FOH in so doing they now have a parallel structure in place and with promised monies to step in once a cva or liquidation. If we did it we have by dint of our own monies a great infrastructure. We really should own the club anyway there has been no capital injections into Hibs as far as we know from anyone in the last 23 years. At least this way the membership fees would be additional funding.

[Jonnyboy]

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What is exactly would it's aim be?

If it is simply regime change how do you know it will be any better?

Let us look first at what is positive:

1 A completed home.
2 A training centre we own.
3 A financial structure that is sustainable. The debt is mostly mortgage, although there will be increased debt because of lack of on-field performance and the money spent on changing managers and buying new managers players. The only team outside the old firm spending money on new players - apparently.
4 An owner who wants it to run sustainably.

Now what is negative:

1 A team that performs poorly and below what we expect.
2 A series of managers who have failed to get Hibs playing the way we want and performing better in the league.
3 A team that does not play in the Hibernian style.

Apart from McCartney (nearly 90 years ago), Shaw (Nearly 70 years ago), Turnbull (nearly 40 years ago) most other managers have been, well pretty poor (no doubt John will correct me here). Hibernian style - well if we look over the last 40 years that has been mostly very poor and on the wrong side of a drubbing.

McLeish and Mowbray were short busts of sunlight and lets be frank not as successful as we may imagine - so what would you do in the first 90 days if you were elected new manager. You can't criticise the positives because they are self evident. You could change the football structure? SO does that really need HoH? LWT has at least the Board working with them. If Rod does not pitch up then go and see him. If you want to change the culture then change the people, yes. How will you do that because that is not just the management it is the players too - how much money do you have?

If you want rid of Rod the go and see STF - but don't hold your breath. If you want rid of STF then go along and outline your plans, your finances and your sustainability financially. As we are seeing at Hearts - its not buying it, it is the cash needed to run it - takes 7 years before your house is safe if you transfer it into trust or to your other half (might be 5 no doubt a lawyer out there will correct me).

Then all you have to do is run it and get success - why? Because the fans expect it. There is no hiding place and these guys do it week in week out and take the abuse.

Work with the Board and help them see the light. As you said earlier with HoH, when results got better things broke up a bit. But as any really good organisational change person knows, that is exactly the time to reinforce change and keep the pressure on.

Just my view.

Also if you are already on the inside on a working group with LWT then you need to open up and say exactly what you mean there and not here. Again, just my view.

I am not happy with the result, there again since 1967 there have been longer periods I have been unhappy. I am a Hibby, it all comes with the job description. I posted earlier that the best years are behind us, I still believe that.

Oh for the Scottish Cup!

No corrections from me

Post is excellent from first word to last and those who plan to protest on Saturday would do well to read it and understand what it is they're doing