New stadium for Edinburgh rugby and/or Hearts? (merged)

[jgl07]

Given the wild allegations that have been posted on this thread I will summarize my recollections:

1. Hearts started the rebuild of Tynecastle with the construction of the Wheatfield Stand. This I think was commissioned under Mercer but was constructed after the Pieman and Leslie Deans took over. In was opened in 1994.

2. The second stand to be built was the Roseburn Stand on the old School End was completed in August 1994 at a cost of £1.4 million. Hearts under Robinson and Deans were struggling to raise the capital to construct the new stand.

3. Lothian Regional Council (convernor Eric Milligan) came up with a rescue plan to agree to rent storage space under the new stand. This was to provide a small income stream to tip the balance and convince the bank to lend Hearts the cash. It was admitted that they did not require the storage space. It was never going to be used as it was simply a ploy to get the banks to loan Hearts the cash.

4. Lothian Regional Council was effectively abolished by the Local Government etc. (Scotland) Act 1994, although it carried on until 1996 before its functions were distributed between the following four councils: West Lothian, City of Edinburgh, Midlothian and East Lothian.

5. That effectively destroyed Milligan's power base although he was subsequently elected to the City of Edinburgh Council and became Lord Provost.

6. With the abolition of Lothian Regional Council, the agreement will have lapsed. New agreements would have had to be made with the successor councils. The storage space was never used and the rent was not paid.

7. If the rent had been paid it would have appeared in the accounts of HMFC and Lothian Regional Council (and successors). No-one has produced any evidence of that.

8. Hearts financial problems seemed to be put to one side as in 1997 they demolished the Gorgie End and built a new stand in 1997

[CropleyWasGod]

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Given the wild allegations that have been posted on this thread I will summarize my recollections:

1. Hearts started the rebuild of Tynecastle with the construction of the Wheatfield Stand. This I think was commissioned under Mercer but was constructed after the Pieman and Leslie Deans took over. In was opened in 1994.

2. The second stand to be built was the Roseburn Stand on the old School End was completed in August 1994 at a cost of £1.4 million. Hearts under Robinson and Deans were struggling to raise the capital to construct the new stand.

3. Lothian Regional Council (convernor Eric Milligan) came up with a rescue plan to agree to rent storage space under the new stand. This was to provide a small income stream to tip the balance and convince the bank to lend Hearts the cash. It was admitted that they did not require the storage space. It was never going to be used as it was simply a ploy to get the banks to loan Hearts the cash.

4. Lothian Regional Council was effectively abolished by the Local Government etc. (Scotland) Act 1994, although it carried on until 1996 before its functions were distributed between the following four councils: West Lothian, City of Edinburgh, Midlothian and East Lothian.

5. That effectively destroyed Milligan's power base although he was subsequently elected to the City of Edinburgh Council and became Lord Provost.

6. With the abolition of Lothian Regional Council, the agreement will have lapsed. New agreements would have had to be made with the successor councils. The storage space was never used and the rent was not paid.

7. If the rent had been paid it would have appeared in the accounts of HMFC and Lothian Regional Council (and successors). No-one has produced any evidence of that.

8. Hearts financial problems seemed to be put to one side as in 1997 they demolished the Gorgie End and built a new stand in 1997

Cheers for that.

Have you got the accounts for 1994-2004, please?

Seriously, though.... even if the space was rented, you are saying that it wasn't enough to pay for the stand itself. That was funded by the bank. Yeah?

[jgl07]

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Cheers for that.

Have you got the accounts for 1994-2004, please?

Seriously, though.... even if the space was rented, you are saying that it wasn't enough to pay for the stand itself. That was funded by the bank. Yeah?

In order to ammortize the full cost of the stand (£1.2 million) over a ten year rental period (assuming a discount rate of 8%) would require annual payments of 178,835 per annum.

I cannot see even Eric Milligan agreeing to pay over £175,000 per year (in 1995) over ten years for storage space he admitted the council did not require. I have no details on the actual amount that was offered butI suspect it was nominal but it was a show of faith that helped convince the bank. There was uproar on the Hibs List at the time. If the sum agreed was even a fraction of the 'full cost' figure quoted above, it would have got into the real public domain.

Milligan knew that Lothian Regional Council was doomed as Parliament had already voted to abolish two tier local government in Scotland and would have less than six months to live by the time the stand was completed. Milligan also hinted that Lothian might do a similar deal with Hibs for the South Stand. Hibs had no problems borrowing the cash as it was peronally guaranteed by Tom Farmer on a long term mortgage.

Hence the whole thing was a grand gesture that would have no real impact as any attempt to invoke the deal could involve investigations into the original deal by the likes of West Lothian Council. It may have just tipped the balance for Hearts with the bank.

[CropleyWasGod]

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In order to ammortize the full cost of the stand (£1.2 million) over a ten year rental period (assuming a discount rate of 8%) would require annual payments of 178,835 per annum.

I cannot see even Eric Milligan agreeing to pay over £175,000 per year (in 1995) over ten years for storage space he admitted the council did not require. I have no details on the actual amount that was offered butI suspect it was nominal but it was a show of faith that helped convince the bank. There was uproar on the Hibs List at the time. If the sum agreed was even a fraction of the 'full cost' figure quoted above, it would have got into the real public domain.

Milligan knew that Lothian Regional Council was doomed as Parliament had already voted to abolish two tier local government in Scotland and would have less than six months to live by the time the stand was completed. Milligan also hinted that Lothian might do a similar deal with Hibs for the South Stand. Hibs had no problems borrowing the cash as it was peronally guaranteed by Tom Farmer on a long term mortgage.

Hence the whole thing was a grand gesture that would have no real impact as any attempt to invoke the deal could involve investigations into the original deal by the likes of West Lothian Council. It may have just tipped the balance for Hearts with the bank.

Ok, over to Ord.

[Hibby Kay-Yay]

Nice little 5,000 capacity stadium approved in Stockbridge. At least they could apply to share it when Tynie goes pop.

http://m.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/...oved-1-3022903

[OrdHibby]

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In order to ammortize the full cost of the stand (£1.2 million) over a ten year rental period (assuming a discount rate of 8%) would require annual payments of 178,835 per annum.

I cannot see even Eric Milligan agreeing to pay over £175,000 per year (in 1995) over ten years for storage space he admitted the council did not require. I have no details on the actual amount that was offered butI suspect it was nominal but it was a show of faith that helped convince the bank. There was uproar on the Hibs List at the time. If the sum agreed was even a fraction of the 'full cost' figure quoted above, it would have got into the real public domain.

Milligan knew that Lothian Regional Council was doomed as Parliament had already voted to abolish two tier local government in Scotland and would have less than six months to live by the time the stand was completed. Milligan also hinted that Lothian might do a similar deal with Hibs for the South Stand. Hibs had no problems borrowing the cash as it was peronally guaranteed by Tom Farmer on a long term mortgage.

Hence the whole thing was a grand gesture that would have no real impact as any attempt to invoke the deal could involve investigations into the original deal by the likes of West Lothian Council. It may have just tipped the balance for Hearts with the bank.

I can't prove it unfortunately but i still think the council paid the full amount up front. What you have said though tells us even back then they were a credit risk because they were spending money the didn't have.
I would also be interested if you could back up what you have printed as you have said in one post the stand was £1.4M and on the next £1.2 ?
I said it was £1.2M and i'm sticking with it and the fact the council paid for the stand. And my last words are, if i'm wrong and you're right about the council putting themselves forward for hawrts to get the credit, WHY WOULD THE COUNCIL GET INVOLVED WITH A PRIVATE ORGINISATION ? That question has to be asked no matter who is right.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I can't prove it unfortunately but i still think the council paid the full amount up front. What you have said though tells us even back then they were a credit risk because they were spending money the didn't have.
I would also be interested if you could back up what you have printed as you have said in one post the stand was £1.4M and on the next £1.2 ?
I said it was £1.2M and i'm sticking with it and the fact the council paid for the stand. And my last words are, if i'm wrong and you're right about the council putting themselves forward for hawrts to get the credit, WHY WOULD THE COUNCIL GET INVOLVED WITH A PRIVATE ORGINISATION ? That question has to be asked no matter who is right.

You could, actually.

Like I say, it would be in Hearts accounts for that period. They're in the public domain.

[OrdHibby]

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You could, actually.

Like I say, it would be in Hearts accounts for that period. They're in the public domain.

Like the butterfly land dealings ?
We're dealing with institutions here ( thievin' ***** )

[CropleyWasGod]

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Like the butterfly land dealings ?
We're dealing with institutions here ( thievin' ***** )

I have no idea whether that is. I do know the Hearts accounts are.

[OrdHibby]

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I have no idea whether that is. I do know the Hearts accounts are.

Give them to me then lol

[CropleyWasGod]

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Give them to me then lol

You'll have to go to the Companies House website. £1 for each document, so you'll need a tenner. It's easy to do.

[OrdHibby]

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You'll have to go to the Companies House website. £1 for each document, so you'll need a tenner. It's easy to do.

I'll maybe give it a try.

[Kaff]

No harm in CWG trying to 'tease' the facts out of Ord here but imo he doesn't set himself up as either an accounts based professional nor itk businessman. To be labelling him a yam as quite a few have done doesn't seem fair to me, sure he came up with 'good to be' and that irked a few but his explanation was plausible to me and i'm prepared to accept that he's new to .net and will make mistakes in his use of terms and vocabulary that are normally seized upon to out the unwashed!