...just started on BBC1.
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20-05-2013 11:18 PM #2
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I know I will probably be in the minority here...
But you only need to watch the Hillsborough documentaries to notice that standing should not be brought back officially.
I appreciate that it can be policed correctly, but they probably thought that back in those days too.
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21-05-2013 05:43 AM #3
I've watched every programme and read several books on the subject and I still struggle every time to hold it together. The anger, the heart break and the fact that those of us who were going to football week in/week out in those dark days when football fans we are treated like criminals meaning we can relate to every one of those effected, gets me every time.
Last night's programme was another angle, the focus on the cover up, so didn't have so much detail on the how the tragedy happened. The mistakes started a year earlier when the same fixture, between the same clubs, was so close to having the same outcome. The mistakes that were made from that day and in the weeks before the tragedy are shocking. Why was that stadium being used, why were the Liverpool fans in that end, why were the ticket cordons used in 88 not used in 89, why was Duckenfield appointed match commander (this is the biggest contributing factor IMO), we know why Duckenfield ordered Gate C to be opened but why weren't the fans directed to the side pens? The list of "Whys" is endless.
Then the lies and the cover ups started and the damage was done. Still to this day when ever Hilsborough is talked about or debated on forums, there are people who blame drunk, ticketless fans or ask about Justice for the Juvé fans etc. The damage done by Duckenfield's lies and the subsequent lies fed to the press is still felt 24 years later despite all these documentaries.
The stories of the individual victims weren't really explored in any detail last night so I encourage you to read "Hilsborough, The Truth" by Phil Scarton (who featured last night). It was written 20 years ago and made all the allegations of the police cover up that have now been proved. 20 years ago!! It also has several detailed personal stories of the victims, including the Hicks sisters, who's dad featured last night. That guy had to choose between going in an ambulance with one dying daughter or staying on the pitch with his other dying daughter. You can't even begin to comprehend that! It's an incredible read and you will be left in tears several times but it gave me such an understanding of the tragedy.
Finally, I remember the day after the disaster being at Hampden for the Scottish Cup semi against Celtic. The atmosphere that day still lives with me. Muted doesn't even begin to describe it and I remember for the first time really realising that EVERY football fan was being treated as a criminal and potential hooligan rather than a customer or human being. It still happens today. Imagine film fans or music fans being treated the way football fans are when attending their events. That is at the heart of the Hilsborough disaster and subsequent cover up....it was only football fans, they don't count for ****!Last edited by Frazerbob; 21-05-2013 at 06:07 AM.
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21-05-2013 06:00 AM #4
Absolutely heart breaking watching some of the footage from that day. Can't even begin to imagine how horrific it must have been for those people. The crowd of people were treated like animals. The police were completely unprepared, lost control and were massively incompetent.
Its a disgrace of the highest order the way the authorities tryed to save their own skins by pointing the finger to the liverpool supporters. The pain and suffering the survivors and the victims families have had to suffer since that day is disgusting but massive credit to them all for their continued fight for truth and justice despite facing many blows and set backs over the years.
JFT96
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21-05-2013 06:59 AM #5
It was awful to watch. Can clearly see the police pushing people back into the pen - possibly to their deaths. Heartbreaking stuff.
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21-05-2013 08:16 AM #6
Theres been a few programmes and books recently on the independent panel's report, so some of it we've heard before,but the new thing last nights programme showed was the extent of the coverup. Implicated in the lie were; South Yorkshire police, West Midlands police, NHS Senior management, the CPS, Lord Justice Taylor himself, the newspaper editors (Kelvin McKenzie take a special bow you ****). They all knew the stories they were putting out were lies. And, although theres no actual smoking gun, almost definitely Thatcher, Jack Straw and possibly Blair as well look complicit (the 'why? Whats the point? scrawled over the parliamentary paper)...Theres at least five people in last nights programme who MUST be the subject of criminal charges, surely.
Its a salutory lesson to people who refuse to believe in conspiracies. They DO happen, and sometimes its only good luck and the hard work of individual journalists and people like Anne Williams and Phil Scarton that mean we find out about it.Last edited by hibsbollah; 21-05-2013 at 08:22 AM.
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21-05-2013 08:35 AM #7This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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21-05-2013 08:36 AM #8This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Every fan that enters a stadium now is accounted for, so over crowding is impossible now.
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21-05-2013 08:40 AM #9This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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21-05-2013 08:58 AM #10
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Last night's programme was quite simply heart wrenching but compulsive viewing - the parents and family members of those that died in the tragedy, who took part in the programme, were awe inspiring in the way they still had dignity and humility despite being criminally (in all manners of the word) let down by a host of agencies and politicians. The BBC footage of that day really hit home how chaotic the scenes were.
What was also quite balanced was that it showed that there were police officers, ambulance personnel and fire fighters (on and off duty) who tried their hardest to help - the commanders should be pursued criminally as well as those that lied and submitted false statements - but there were those on the ground that day that were incredibly human and whose first instinct was perhaps to go against 'orders' and help - sadly not enough of them however.
I was incredulous whilst watching that if a BBC commentator (Motson) could see from his vantage point where the problem of crushing lay, why on earth could a match commander not see it - the sight of police officers preventing people from getting onto the pitch or climbing over to safety was sickening and brought a tear to my eye. They were literally staring dead people in the eye.
If I recall correctly I am sure that the previous season there had been a similar problem which was only averted at the last minute by 'common sense' policing - the senior police, the football club, the fire service are all accountable for events that happened that day. You were almost willing someone in these fields to 'break ranks' and go against orders - heartbreaking viewing but compulsive viewing.
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21-05-2013 09:04 AM #11
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All of the things that prevent such a scenario happening in a seated area today (mainly signage and a lack of fences) can and are easily be applied to standing areas. If there are 800 seats/standing spaces in a section, only allow 800 people into that section, simple. Hillsborough didn't happen because people were stood up, it happened because 4000 people were allowed into an area designed for 2000 with no means of escape.
And a final point of interest, there were 53 years between stadium crush disasters in England (Burnden Park and Hillsborough) - only 24 have passed since the last one.
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21-05-2013 10:05 AM #12This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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21-05-2013 10:21 AM #13This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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21-05-2013 11:04 AM #14
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Football crowds were, and still are in some places, treated like criminals despite the fact that most of us have no criminal record whatsoever. This is no different to any mass gathering off people, the majority are not criminals and don't deserve to be treated as such.
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21-05-2013 11:44 AM #15This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Perhaps because for the decade prior to Hillsborough whenever the word 'fitba' was mentioned on the tellybox it was more often than not followed by the word 'hooligan'. This wasn't all made up by the media - fitba crowds behaved very badly indeed. Obviously not everyone in them, but enough to warrant mounted polis with batons, etc etc etc. There were I think no mounties at large cricket, golf, rugby, tennis, events - why was that, if fitba crowds as you suggest were no different to any mass gathering of people? Television pictures from Heysel, too, would have been reasonably fresh in the mind.
Things are generally much better now, but still there are elements of behaviour tolerated at fitba matches that aren't tolerated anywhere else (whether on the basis of 'it's just banter', 'he's paid his money and can do what he likes', or whatever, doesn't really matter). You are way more likely to come into contact with a drunken nutter at a fitba match than at, say, a cinema, and on that basis alone all fitba fans, including those like you and me with an unblemished record, can reasonably expect to be treated more warily by authority figures).
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21-05-2013 11:47 AM #16This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Last edited by cocopops1875; 21-05-2013 at 01:49 PM.
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21-05-2013 11:52 AM #17This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
I'm not going to suggest football fans we all angels but to suggest it was easy for the cover up the truth is not the case as last nights programme proved.
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21-05-2013 12:02 PM #18This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
The continuing cover up required more effort, certainly, but I'd still suggest that it was made easier than it should have been by the shocking (and deserved imo) reputation that English football fans had at the time of Hillsborough.
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21-05-2013 12:12 PM #19This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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21-05-2013 01:07 PM #20This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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21-05-2013 04:17 PM #21This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Which shows the kind of person you're talking about.
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21-05-2013 05:04 PM #22This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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21-05-2013 05:24 PM #23
As football fans you feel the outrage of what went on and how fans of all kinds were treated. We are treated better now but we are still low down the food chain compared to other so called entertainments. The issue of standing will always divide but if you can stand at a gig at hampden for instance why cant you stand at a football game?
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21-05-2013 05:47 PM #24This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Turned out that P'boro had 'oversold' the allocation apparently...but how do you know the capacity of a standing area? At one point there was a big push from behind as late coming drunks tried to get into the ground. Everyone fell forward and I found myself separated from the others I was with.
This is terracing in modern football times and IMO it isn't safe and after this experience can totally see why terracing hasn't made a return.
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21-05-2013 07:39 PM #25
Recorded the programme and watched it tonight. Mood ran from tears to anger to tears and back to anger again. Duckinfield and Bettison arte still alive and should be in jail IMO as their incompetence resulted in 96 deaths.
This is how it feels
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21-05-2013 07:43 PM #26This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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21-05-2013 07:45 PM #27
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The newspapers all published photographs of peple pressed up against the fence.It was quite clear some of them were dead.I phoned up the Scotsman picture dept.and told them they should be ashamed of themselves.They told me that they regretted publishing it and wouldn't do it again.
On a different note when I went to the 1958 cup final -108,000 I think-I don't remember having a ticket-it was pay at the gate.I'd been to Scotland v England a couple of years earlier which was ticketed-139000 I think.
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21-05-2013 07:54 PM #28
I haven't brought myself to watch last night's programme yet, I tend to like to watch all things about Hillsborough when I'm in on my own, everything I watch takes me back to that dreadful day and the tears start. I will probably watch it in a couple of days.
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21-05-2013 08:03 PM #29
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One of the points on the programme which got to me was the Doctor who had been at the game, and Taylor tried to tarnish his image as he wasn't a "Real" doctor. It just showed to me that Taylor's mind was made up prior to the inquest.
Too many other things to mention but Bettison and Duckenfield should have been jailed.Last edited by ronaldo7; 21-05-2013 at 08:16 PM.
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21-05-2013 08:09 PM #30This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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