Article on the Bundesliga in tonight's Evening Standard

[CyberSauzee]

Read this on the way home.

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foot...n-8499567.html

I know we have a thread now and again on comparisons to German football but it's interesting to see some up to date numbers being quoted:

the average price to watch a Bundesliga match is £19.55. It also comes with the promise of free travel on public transport within a significant distance from the ground.

Director of marketing, sales and business development at Dortmund, Carsten Cramer, added: “It’s important that football is available for all the people and it’s not a closed shop. In Dortmund we wouldn’t be that successful if we changed our ticketing policy (where access to the 26,000 terrace stand costs just €11)

Not in the on-line article that's in the printed edition is the comparison of the average attendance last season between the EPL and Germany: 45,116 in the Bundesliga v 34,646 in England.

I think out with of Sky (unsurprisingly) there's not not too many in the media who are still spouting out 'the best league in the world' nonsense these days.

[Treadstone]

Best infrastructure in world football in my opinion. All things considered.

[Hibrandenburg]

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Best infrastructure in world football in my opinion. All things considered.

The secret of the Bundesliga is quite simple. They've kept football a working mans sport. Of course they still cater for other classes but in General it's still the working class that is the bread and butter of their game.

[Treadstone]

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The secret of the Bundesliga is quite simple. They've kept football a working mans sport. Of course they still cater for other classes but in General it's still the working class that is the bread and butter of their game.

About 10yrs ago I got a book free with four four two called 'Parklife' along these lines about English Football and in turn the British game. Saying how the working class sustained the game during the 80s when football was a dirty word, referenced during the Hillsborough report last year as fans were treated as second class citizens by government and authorities, only for its popularity to soar and tried to be taken out of the reach of the working class by the nouveau riche wallopers.

[The_Exile]

Germany will be the "Brazil" of my kids generation, they are set up to absolutely dominate international and euro football for decades, the rest are so far behind (apart from Holland perhaps?) their infrastructure and the way they run/coach the game.

I've watched more Bundesliga than Premiership, its like night and day, I've yet to see a truly boring Bundesliga game this season.

[bingo70]

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Germany will be the "Brazil" of my kids generation, they are set up to absolutely dominate international and euro football for decades, the rest are so far behind (apart from Holland perhaps?) their infrastructure and the way they run/coach the game.

I've watched more Bundesliga than Premiership, its like night and day, I've yet to see a truly boring Bundesliga game this season.

Don't know much about European football but I'm surprised your just discounting Spain, surely they're the benchmark for all countries to strive to?

[The_Exile]

There's no doubting Spain are the team to beat at the moment, IMO that wont last.

[Jonnyboy]

Germany has a population of almost 86 million compared to around 5.5 million in Scotland. It's hardly surprising their crowds are big

I've watched a couple of games in Germany and loved the whole match day experience

[Spudster]

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the average price to watch a Bundesliga match is £19.55. It also comes with the promise of free travel on public transport within a significant distance from the ground.

Director of marketing, sales and business development at Dortmund, Carsten Cramer, added: “It’s important that football is available for all the people and it’s not a closed shop. In Dortmund we wouldn’t be that successful if we changed our ticketing policy (where access to the 26,000 terrace stand costs just €11)

As much as I love German football I think the SPL needs to look elsewhere for it's answers.

The big difference is they have an excellent public transportation system and 80 million people to justify it.
It's been proven already that lowering the ticket price doesn't change attendances much. It just harms the income of the club. I was invited to Pittodrie for a corporate recently, if that was free every week I'd still have my reservations about going (that includes free food & beer). The quality on the pitch needs to change drastically, that itsn't going to happen without summer football for a start IMO.

[bingo70]

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There's no doubting Spain are the team to beat at the moment, IMO that wont last.

Mmmmm not sure I agree, whenever I watch Spanish clubs play it seems the teams are made up mostly of Spanish players with the odd foreigner chucked in so they're going to have a big pool of players to choose from for a long time, bilbao being a great example of that.

They are maybe a bit over reliant on xavi, iniesta and villa but what team wouldn't be if they had players like that available to them?!

Saying that though, the Germans probably do have the best infrastructure so you're maybe right but I just wouldn't be too quick to write off the Spanish and would certainly expect them to be ahead of the dutch.

[Hibee Ryan]

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Germany will be the "Brazil" of my kids generation, they are set up to absolutely dominate international and euro football for decades, the rest are so far behind (apart from Holland perhaps?) their infrastructure and the way they run/coach the game.

I've watched more Bundesliga than Premiership, its like night and day, I've yet to see a truly boring Bundesliga game this season.

Hmm not sure about holland. No doubting they have the coaching ability but every time they pull a great group of players together their egos seem to get in the way! Similar to France with nearly every coach ;)!

Germany decided to go down this route about 10/15 years ago and it's only starting to pay off! And they'll reap the rewards until other countries step up as well so they could be top of the game for 20 years at least!

Brazil have a very good footballing infrastructure but they aren't producing the same level of player they normally do (neymar being the obvious big talent) but the home nations are so far behind with coaching methods that all of the national teams will be left behind! And I believe that the English game is going to implode eventually when tv money gets switched more towards Germany, brazil, Italy and Spain as the leagues in countries are quickly catching up on talent and will soon surpass England and make it look poor...

[hibs4thecup1988]

I think part of the reason they can charge so little is in the article. 26,000 terracing??? 11 euros. So There's 270k before the other stands. Hibs would be lucky to make that in 2 home games.

I think tv has a huge part to play as well. Quality on the park obviously matters but if clubs could market to their fans then grounds should be full. I mean st mirren taken 17,500 to hampden. Their ground on holds 9,000. The extra fans should be marketed and asked why don't they go to games. Yes there will be internationals and things but I guarantee 9k of those fans stay in Scotland or travelling distance.

Its the same with hibs I know. Just irritates me seeing 26k at cup finals and 9k at bread and butter games

[PeeJay]

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Germany will be the "Brazil" of my kids generation, they are set up to absolutely dominate international and euro football for decades, the rest are so far behind (apart from Holland perhaps?) their infrastructure and the way they run/coach the game.

I've watched more Bundesliga than Premiership, its like night and day, I've yet to see a truly boring Bundesliga game this season.

I'd be very wary of saying that. Beckenbauer said the same back in 1990 when West Germany won the WC and the former GDR players were entitled to play for the soon-to-be reunited Germany - it was false dawn. The young guys currently playing for Germany are without doubt special, but let's wait and see if they actually win anything first, then we can start thinking of "decades of domination"....

This "Bundesliga being so much better than the EPL" is a bit of a myth IMO - there are of course plenty of boring games and there are naturally some fantastic games - but the truth is, we currently have one of the most boring Bundesliga seasons that we've had for a long time - it's almost been over since day 1. It's bad enough Bayern München almost always winning it, but to do so so easily is particularly galling - so much for great competition.

[Gatecrasher]

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Germany has a population of almost 86 million compared to around 5.5 million in Scotland. It's hardly surprising their crowds are big

I've watched a couple of games in Germany and loved the whole match day experience

No doubt we cant copy the entire model due to money restraints and population difference but that doesn't mean some of the more workable processes they use cant be adapted in Scotland. Ticket and travel prices are a major issue for many supporters all over the country and the football authorities must come to some sort of solution to this or it will only get worse.

[marinello59]

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No doubt we cant copy the entire model due to money restraints and population difference but that doesn't mean some of the more workable processes they use cant be adapted in Scotland. Ticket and travel prices are a major issue for many supporters all over the country and the football authorities must come to some sort of solution to this or it will only get worse.

That's not a football problem, it's down to Goverment to make our Public transport system both affordable and attractive. Unless you are suggesting clubs cut ticket prices AND subsidise travel?

[Gatecrasher]

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That's not a football problem, it's down to Goverment to make our Public transport system both affordable and attractive. Unless you are suggesting clubs cut ticket prices AND subsidise travel?

I know it's not a football problem but it's a factor people take into account when considering going to a game. Travel to away games in particular can be quite expensive. Ross County have done quite well to make gestures with other SPL clubs to put on busses. This type of thing can can sway some people thinking whether to make the trip to an away game.

[CorrieHibs]

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The secret of the Bundesliga is quite simple. They've kept football a working mans sport. Of course they still cater for other classes but in General it's still the working class that is the bread and butter of their game.

Very good point!
Too much prawn sandwiches and big wigs in our football. They don't have a clue. It looks like the bundesliga has a lot of ex footballers on the boards who can relate and the fan ownership is fantastic.

[Keith_M]

I've been an advocate of considering modifying the price structure for Scottish Football for a long time but I don't believe there's any quick fix.


You can't just take the example of the Bundesliga and assume it can immediately be applied to Scottish clubs. For instance, try to remember that in the case of Dortmund, they get 80,000 people for every home game plus massive advertising, sponsorship, TV and commercial revenues that Hibs can only dream of. They also have some incredibly expensive tickets for parts of their stadium.


Lets just say that Hibs decided to reduce the ticket price to an average of 15 quid per adult and throw in free bus travel to and from the game from within Edinburgh. Who exactly is going to make up the difference in lost revenue? Hibs actually made a loss last year and putting this into practice, even if their was a slight increase in attendance as a result, would only increase the size of that loss.

[marinello59]

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Very good point!
Too much prawn sandwiches and big wigs in our football. They don't have a clue. It looks like the bundesliga has a lot of ex footballers on the boards who can relate and the fan ownership is fantastic.

What does the term 'prawn sandwich' mean other than being a mindless slogan for inverted snobs everywhere?
A definition of what constitutes the working class these days now wouldn't go amiss either.

[yeezus.]

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Germany will be the "Brazil" of my kids generation, they are set up to absolutely dominate international and euro football for decades, the rest are so far behind (apart from Holland perhaps?) their infrastructure and the way they run/coach the game.

I've watched more Bundesliga than Premiership, its like night and day, I've yet to see a truly boring Bundesliga game this season.

I remember watching a Bayern Dortmund game last year and I'm sure it was like 5-3 or something. I keep predicting Germany to win a major tournament and I'm sure it will happen at the next World Cup.

[Gatecrasher]

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I've been an advocate of considering modifying the price structure for Scottish Football for a long time but I don't believe there's any quick fix.


You can't just take the example of the Bundesliga and assume it can immediately be applied to Scottish clubs. For instance, try to remember that in the case of Dortmund, they get 80,000 people for every home game plus massive advertising, sponsorship, TV and commercial revenues that Hibs can only dream of. They also have some incredibly expensive tickets for parts of their stadium.


Lets just say that Hibs decided to reduce the ticket price to an average of 15 quid per adult and throw in free bus travel to and from the game from within Edinburgh. Who exactly is going to make up the difference in lost revenue? Hibs actually made a loss last year and putting this into practice, even if their was a slight increase in attendance as a result, would only increase the size of that loss.

I completely agree with what you say, It would have to be a group effort from the SPL/SFL/SFA to agree a pricing structure and any other incentives to entice fans back. Hibs reducing prices on their own would be irresponsible of the club as they would just make a huge loss. But thats not to say ideas from Germany could be implemented here even if they are adjusted to suit our circumstances.

[Keith_M]

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I completely agree with what you say, It would have to be a group effort from the SPL/SFL/SFA to agree a pricing structure and any other incentives to entice fans back. Hibs reducing prices on their own would be irresponsible of the club as they would just make a huge loss. But thats not to say ideas from Germany could be implemented here even if they are adjusted to suit our circumstances.

Yep, I think we should be looking at any parts of this that would be suitable to our circumstances, not wholesale adoption.


I would increase the price of the seats in Section 43 to 50 quid each and use the money gained to decrease the price by a fiver in all other parts of the ground

[Hibrandenburg]

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Yep, I think we should be looking at any parts of this that would be suitable to our circumstances, not wholesale adoption.


I would increase the price of the seats in Section 43 to 50 quid each and use the money gained to decrease the price by a fiver in all other parts of the ground

There are many different models that the club could look at to increase sales. Most golf clubs have overseas membership for example. It allows the holder to play a certain amount of rounds pro year at a lesser price than full membership with otherwise full membership benefits.

Learn from the busses, a sort of off peak season ticket that is valid only for certain category games.

Points system for buying things in the club store that gives you a discount on buying tickets or vice versa.

Loyalty season ticket, if you've bought one for the last 10 years (or 5) then get one free.

There are lots of systems in use out there used by other branches that can be adapted to football to encourage people through the gates.

[patlowe]

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Germany decided to go down this route about 10/15 years ago and it's only starting to pay off! And they'll reap the rewards until other countries step up as well so they could be top of the game for 20 years at least!

If finishing 3rd in the last two world cups and 2nd and 3rd in the last two euros is them 'only starting' to benefit from this then god help the rest of the world!

I get your point though, and I think it will be interesting to see how Bayern, Dortmund etc do in europe over the coming years; they look excellent at the moment.