Tactics/Fenlon/4-5-1/Kuqi WTF etc etc..............

**lyonhibs** · 27-01-2013 05:07 PM

I think all of the above are relatively valid (ish) topics of debate, but I think a more underlying fundamental problem plagues this squad, that being that a lot of the players - whilst being decent professionals etc - just aren't very good at football. By "football" I mean, maintaining possession and creating chances through the seemingly lost art of penetrative passing to your own team.

We have players who can finish chances, prevent chances, make headers, block shots etc etc, but we have no-one with the ability to get their foot on the ball and play a defence splitting (or even troubling) pass on the deck with any regularity.

Until that is resolved, then - being as Fenlon has - IMO - got his priorities right by making us hard to beat before trying to play "The Hibs Way" - I think we can expect more fairly aesthetically grim football matches.

Contrary to the popular romantic belief of gin soaked memories from the early 70's, we don't have a divine right to swashbuckling sexy football. With the current squad - Wotherspoon (today) and Kuqi (pretty much every time I've seen him play) apart - we get effort and commitment pretty much week in, week out, which is night and day vs last season.

Hopefully, Craig, Robertson and/or Wylde (although 2 of those remain paper talk) will bring us the speed and creativity. I think we've got a goalkeeper, a defence, the defensive side of midfield and a finisher pretty much covered. Last season, we had effectively none of these.

Progress has been made, but there's plenty more to make in the attacking/creating sense. I'm sure Fenlon knows this.

A trip to Hampden and a top 6 (top 4 if I'm being greedy) finish this season would be extraordinary considering what our "starting point" was after the end of last season.

***blackpoolhibs*** · 27-01-2013 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by lyonhibs

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I think all of the above are relatively valid (ish) topics of debate, but I think a more underlying fundamental problem plagues this squad, that being that a lot of the players - whilst being decent professionals etc - just aren't very good at football. By "football" I mean, maintaining possession and creating chances through the seemingly lost art of penetrative passing to your own team.

We have players who can finish chances, prevent chances, make headers, block shots etc etc, but we have no-one with the ability to get their foot on the ball and play a defence splitting (or even troubling) pass on the deck with any regularity.

Until that is resolved, then - being as Fenlon has - IMO - got his priorities right by making us hard to beat before trying to play "The Hibs Way" - I think we can expect more fairly aesthetically grim football matches.

Contrary to the popular romantic belief of gin soaked memories from the early 70's, we don't have a divine right to swashbuckling sexy football. With the current squad - Wotherspoon (today) and Kuqi (pretty much every time I've seen him play) apart - we get effort and commitment pretty much week in, week out, which is night and day vs last season.

Hopefully, Craig, Robertson and/or Wylde (although 2 of those remain paper talk) will bring us the speed and creativity. I think we've got a goalkeeper, a defence, the defensive side of midfield and a finisher pretty much covered. Last season, we had effectively none of these.

Progress has been made, but there's plenty more to make in the attacking/creating sense. I'm sure Fenlon knows this.

A trip to Hampden and a top 6 (top 4 if I'm being greedy) finish this season would be extraordinary considering what our "starting point" was after the end of last season.

Get yer tin hat on, this could be a rough ride?

***Northernhibee*** · 27-01-2013 05:19 PM

Fenlon is IMO a very fair man; Booth, Kujabi, O'Hanlon etc. got opportunities in the QOTS cup game to prove they could still do a job and when they didn't they were punted, put out on loan or just didn't make the team.

Wouldn't surprise me if that was the case today with Kuqi's start.

**Treadstone** · 27-01-2013 05:20 PM

Fair points well made, however 8 of the team were signed by the current manager (9 if you count Griffiths being re-signed by way of extending a loan). On this basis do you trust him to bring in better footballers ? Not a loaded question just curious.

***blackpoolhibs*** · 27-01-2013 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Treadstone

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Fair points well made, however 8 of the team were signed by the current manager (9 if you count Griffiths being re-signed by way of extending a loan). On this basis do you trust him to bring in better footballers ? Not a loaded question just curious.

I do, he's brought in players that have progressed us from relegation candidates to top 6. It might mean one or two of his signings will leave at the end of this season,Kuqi definetly, Kujabi too, Claros maybe, Deegan maybe and different types brought in to progress us on again?

***Northernhibee*** · 27-01-2013 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Treadstone

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Fair points well made, however 8 of the team were signed by the current manager (9 if you count Griffiths being re-signed by way of extending a loan). On this basis do you trust him to bring in better footballers ? Not a loaded question just curious.

I trust him, the more quality players you have in a team the easier it is to attract further quality players. Nobody wants to sign to a team where they'll be made to look **** by the likes we've had in recent years.

**lyonhibs** · 27-01-2013 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by Treadstone

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Fair points well made, however 8 of the team were signed by the current manager (9 if you count Griffiths being re-signed by way of extending a loan). On this basis do you trust him to bring in better footballers ? Not a loaded question just curious.

I hasten to add, I very firmly believe that this IS Fenlon's team, and no more of this "he really needs next summer before we can judge him" pish. I just think Fenlon has looked at the squad he had at the end of last season and gone "FFS, what is a) most lacking (everything) and b) most crucial to improving next season"

Defence, a goalkeeper and the overall attitude of the squad were clearly top of his list.

These days in football, you can only do so much in 1 summer when a complete overhaul is required. Pace and creativity from midfield are crucial if we are to play a game that is a better balance between "stodgy and difficult to beat", which is what we have now, and "Brazil 1970" which is what a few on here think we should be getting treated to.

The truth will hopefully be somewhere in the middle, and I'm sure that's what we will start to see more of if and when these new midfielder(s) come in this month or in the summer.

**Treadstone** · 27-01-2013 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Northernhibee

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I trust him, the more quality players you have in a team the easier it is to attract further quality players. Nobody wants to sign to a team where they'll be made to look **** by the likes we've had in recent years.

Garbage. Moolah is the major consideration.

***blackpoolhibs*** · 27-01-2013 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by Treadstone

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Garbage. Moolah is the major consideration.

Not as simple as that, if we offered 1k a week last season and Dundee Utd offered the same, why would anyone come to a struggling club like we were, when they could sign for a club like them or Motherwell when they are fighting for champions league football or Europe?

**Treadstone** · 27-01-2013 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs

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Not as simple as that, if we offered 1k a week last season and Dundee Utd offered the same, why would anyone come to a struggling club like we were, when they could sign for a club like them or Motherwell when they are fighting for champions league football or Europe?

The subject was quality players.

***blackpoolhibs*** · 27-01-2013 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by Treadstone

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The subject was quality players.

Do those clubs not have any, ones we'd have at easter road in a minute?

**Treadstone** · 27-01-2013 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs

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Do those clubs not have any, ones we'd have at easter road in a minute?

So let me get this straight. A player is moving clubs, checks Wiki to see the various merits of the players on the staff and decides to go there before making any decision regarding the financial aspect of the deal.

**lyonhibs** · 27-01-2013 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs

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Not as simple as that, if we offered 1k a week last season and Dundee Utd offered the same, why would anyone come to a struggling club like we were, when they could sign for a club like them or Motherwell when they are fighting for champions league football or Europe?

Originally Posted by Treadstone

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So let me get this straight. A player is moving clubs, checks Wiki to see the various merits of the players on the staff and decides to go there before making any decision regarding the financial aspect of the deal.

I think what BH was saying, albeit in a very furtive, hard to understand way, was that if the financial aspect of any given deal offered to player A by Hibs and, say, Motherwell or Dundee United, was the same then there's a good chance that player A would have gone to Dundee United or Motherwell.

People like to think that players get as dewy eyed as we do about the Famous 5, Turnbull's Tornadoes, our great European exploits back in the day etc etc, and thus "should" choose us over "smaller" teams offering similar money.

This is, patently, baws. League table and the ££££ on offer are what count these days. We are now much better placed - quite literally looking at the league table - to attract players of the type of quality we'd like to see as supporters. Fenlon - rightly IMO - focused most of his summer window budget on defensive players with a bit of bite and grit.

***Malthibby*** · 27-01-2013 06:06 PM

Dunno what's wrong with gin soaked memories of the 70's, I like them.
GG

**Treadstone** · 27-01-2013 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by lyonhibs

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I think what BH was saying, albeit in a very furtive, hard to understand way, was that if the financial aspect of any given deal offered to player A by Hibs and, say, Motherwell or Dundee United, was the same then there's a good chance that player A would have gone to Dundee United or Motherwell.

I realise the point that was being made but in these situations people use ridiculous hypotheticals to help make their points. Very few, if any deals are a like-for-like salary issue and the player just has to decide which is the better club, playing style or area to live for him. Just look across the city and see why players set up camp there. Zaliukaus,Kingston, Skacel anyone ?

**~~Iggy Pope~~** · 27-01-2013 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by lyonhibs

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I think all of the above are relatively valid (ish) topics of debate, but I think a more underlying fundamental problem plagues this squad, that being that a lot of the players - whilst being decent professionals etc - just aren't very good at football. By "football" I mean, maintaining possession and creating chances through the seemingly lost art of penetrative passing to your own team.

We have players who can finish chances, prevent chances, make headers, block shots etc etc, but we have no-one with the ability to get their foot on the ball and play a defence splitting (or even troubling) pass on the deck with any regularity.

Until that is resolved, then - being as Fenlon has - IMO - got his priorities right by making us hard to beat before trying to play "The Hibs Way" - I think we can expect more fairly aesthetically grim football matches.

Contrary to the popular romantic belief of gin soaked memories from the early 70's, we don't have a divine right to swashbuckling sexy football. With the current squad - Wotherspoon (today) and Kuqi (pretty much every time I've seen him play) apart - we get effort and commitment pretty much week in, week out, which is night and day vs last season.

Hopefully, Craig, Robertson and/or Wylde (although 2 of those remain paper talk) will bring us the speed and creativity. I think we've got a goalkeeper, a defence, the defensive side of midfield and a finisher pretty much covered. Last season, we had effectively none of these.

Progress has been made, but there's plenty more to make in the attacking/creating sense. I'm sure Fenlon knows this.

A trip to Hampden and a top 6 (top 4 if I'm being greedy) finish this season would be extraordinary considering what our "starting point" was after the end of last season.

Amazed that we are so far up ourselves as Hibbies, that we have amongst us, those who think that these players we have at ER right now are somehow, 'not very good' at football.

All pro players who have either worked their way up at one of the oldest and established senior sides that the country has to offer, or having plied their trade at other well respected sides.

But not very good at football.

Should have been playing with the lassies at playtime the lot of them.

Kuqi has seen better days no doubt, but is capped and has made a lot of appearances at a level higher than the one he is at now. Him and his team mate Wotherspoon would lose you in caps and medals along with 100% of the tactical experts posting here.

The bit in bold - we have a side that are not very good at football, but it sounds like we might only need one player and we will be barry! That right?

**lyonhibs** · 27-01-2013 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by lyonhibs

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I think all of the above are relatively valid (ish) topics of debate, but I think a more underlying fundamental problem plagues this squad, that being that a lot of the players - whilst being decent professionals etc - just aren't very good at football. By "football" I mean, maintaining possession and creating chances through the seemingly lost art of penetrative passing to your own team.

We have players who can finish chances, prevent chances, make headers, block shots etc etc, but we have no-one with the ability to get their foot on the ball and play a defence splitting (or even troubling) pass on the deck with any regularity.

Until that is resolved, then - being as Fenlon has - IMO - got his priorities right by making us hard to beat before trying to play "The Hibs Way" - I think we can expect more fairly aesthetically grim football matches.

Contrary to the popular romantic belief of gin soaked memories from the early 70's, we don't have a divine right to swashbuckling sexy football. With the current squad - Wotherspoon (today) and Kuqi (pretty much every time I've seen him play) apart - we get effort and commitment pretty much week in, week out, which is night and day vs last season.

Hopefully, Craig, Robertson and/or Wylde (although 2 of those remain paper talk) will bring us the speed and creativity. I think we've got a goalkeeper, a defence, the defensive side of midfield and a finisher pretty much covered. Last season, we had effectively none of these.

Progress has been made, but there's plenty more to make in the attacking/creating sense. I'm sure Fenlon knows this.

A trip to Hampden and a top 6 (top 4 if I'm being greedy) finish this season would be extraordinary considering what our "starting point" was after the end of last season.

Originally Posted by Hamilton Handling

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Amazed that we are so far up ourselves as Hibbies, that we have amongst us, those who think that these players we have at ER right now are somehow, 'not very good' at football.

All pro players who have either worked their way up at one of the oldest and established senior sides that the country has to offer, or having plied their trade at other well respected sides.

But not very good at football.

Should have been playing with the lassies at playtime the lot of them.

Kuqi has seen better days no doubt, but is capped and has made a lot of appearances at a level higher than the one he is at now. Him and his team mate Wotherspoon would lose you in caps and medals along with 100% of the tactical experts posting here.

The bit in bold - we have a side that are not very good at football, but it sounds like we might only need one player and we will be barry! That right?

Did you read the highlighted part of the OP?

Our defence and defensive midfielders are good at what they do, but they aren't the players to get this side "playing football" as I understand the phrase. Unless you see creative attributes in McPake, Hanlon, Taiwo et al that I - and almost everyone else - seems to be missing.

**Treadstone** · 27-01-2013 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Hamilton Handling

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Amazed that we are so far up ourselves as Hibbies, that we have amongst us, those who think that these players we have at ER right now are somehow, 'not very good' at football.

All pro players who have either worked their way up at one of the oldest and established senior sides that the country has to offer, or having plied their trade at other well respected sides.

But not very good at football.

Should have been playing with the lassies at playtime the lot of them.

Kuqi has seen better days no doubt, but is capped and has made a lot of appearances at a level higher than the one he is at now. Him and his team mate Wotherspoon would lose you in caps and medals along with 100% of the tactical experts posting here.

The bit in bold - we have a side that are not very good at football, but it sounds like we might only need one player and we will be barry! That right?

So by that token, regardless of current ability, which we should be judging players by, Lawrie Reilly would never have needed to retire and criteria needed to play would be to be better than the fans.

Terrific logic there.

***Just Alf*** · 27-01-2013 06:41 PM

Whilst understanding the sentiment, I do feel a wee bit sorry for Kookie! He was standing in front of an open goal early in the season and (I can't remember!) "whoever" had run in on the left had the goalie and the only defender in front of them and instead of popping the ball sideways he Tried a shot which the goalie pushed wide.... We might have a (slightly) different view if he had a goal against his name :-)

Mind you everything else said about him is probably bang on ( including the value he adds to the young ladies in training)

**~~Iggy Pope~~** · 27-01-2013 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by Treadstone

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So by that token, regardless of current ability, which we should be judging players by, Lawrie Reilly would never have needed to retire and criteria needed to play would be to be better than the fans.

Terrific logic there.

If logic is coming into play why cite a man that retired over five decades ago?

You think we employ players who are 'not very good at football' as well as the OP?

By and large the criteria must be to be 'better than the fans'. That's why they eke out a living from us. Otherwise we could just cobble a side together and give them a take-on. Maybe a 10-21 in the backies.

***Just Alf*** · 27-01-2013 06:42 PM

Laddies!

Bloody spel chequers !

**Treadstone** · 27-01-2013 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by Hamilton Handling

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If logic is coming into play why cite a man that retired over five decades ago?

You think we employ players who are 'not very good at football' as well as the OP?

By and large the criteria must be to be 'better than the fans'. That's why they eke out a living from us. Otherwise we could just cobble a side together and give them a take-on. Maybe a 10-21 in the backies.

1. Well he played at a higher standard than Kuqi.

2. Relative to the standard of a decent pro footballer ? Yes.

3. Plenty junior players are better than the fans maybe we should get them in the team!

**~~Iggy Pope~~** · 27-01-2013 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by Treadstone

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1. Well he played at a higher standard than Kuqi.

2. Relative to the standard of a decent pro footballer ? Yes.

3. Plenty junior players are better than the fans maybe we should get them in the team!

See, I thought the debate was about the current squad, not the past, this is why I questioned your, er, logic.

Points two and three? Cannot find a smiley daft enough to equal that pish. You've lost it. Must be your G****e location.

**Treadstone** · 27-01-2013 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by Hamilton Handling

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See, I thought the debate was about the current squad, not the past, this is why I questioned your, er, logic.

Points two and three? Cannot find a smiley daft enough to equal that pish. You've lost it. Must be your G****e location.

You should maybe google logic as you think Kuqi was worthy of his place by virtue that he is "capped and has made a lot of appearances at a level higher than the one he is at now".

**~~Iggy Pope~~** · 27-01-2013 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by Treadstone

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You should maybe google logic as you think Kuqi was worthy of his place by virtue that he is "capped and has made a lot of appearances at a level higher than the one he is at now".

Listen now. My only question was whether he was any 'good at football'. And he would run rings around you, I know this. Now bugger off back to Luckies.

**Treadstone** · 27-01-2013 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Hamilton Handling

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Listen now. My only question was whether he was any 'good at football'. And he would run rings around you, I know this. Now bugger off back to Luckies.

So for that reason he gets in the team ? I know you're stuck in '77 but football has evolved and can't really see the get it in the mixer for the big man mentality coming back for sides who genuinely want to be successful.

Oh I see I stay in Gorgie so I must go to Luckies.