Defence

**Ozyhibby** · 15-12-2012 04:00 PM

3 points out of the last 15. How long will Pat continue with this woeful defence.
Our inability to retain posession means we are easily put under pressure and even when we are not we will gift goals anyway.
Needs major changes during the january transfer window.

***Northernhibee*** · 15-12-2012 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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3 points out of the last 15. How long will Pat continue with this woeful defence.

What with injuries, who else do we have? With our financial situation, who do we sign that is a free agent who would improve the side?

Needs major changes during the january transfer window.

No it doesn't. We need Clancy back and McPake match fit again. Retain McGivern and maybe bring another CB in.

**Thecat23** · 15-12-2012 04:07 PM

Hibs are crying out for wide men. We are unbelievably narrow and that's why we get battered down the wings. We need to start doing that to teams and have these wing men drop back and support but also quick enough to catch teams on the break.

**~~JohnScott~~** · 15-12-2012 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Northernhibee

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What with injuries, who else do we have? With our financial situation, who do we sign that is a free agent who would improve the side?

No it doesn't. We need Clancy back and McPake match fit again. Retain McGivern and maybe bring another CB in.

Sitting in london today reading in an English paper about how Terry Butcher is doing so well on a budget of 800k How come he seems to build build half decent teams on such a small budget then?

**Ozyhibby** · 15-12-2012 04:11 PM

Its conceeded 27 goals so far this season. If you think thats ok then fine. Your obviously easier pleased than me (most folk are).
I have not looked at our posession stats but i bet they are below 50% in most games this season.
Thankfully our strikers helped us put up points on the board at the start of the season.

***Hibbyradge*** · 15-12-2012 04:11 PM

The defence were dominant and solid in the first half.

Any defence in the world is going to struggle if we decide to give the ball to the opposition .

**Pretty Boy** · 15-12-2012 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

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The defence were dominant and solid in the first half.

Any defence in the world is going to struggle if we decide to give the ball to the opposition .

We looked ok at the back 1st half.

As you say if you stand off teams, sit deep and let them have the ball then you are asking for trouble.

We got what we deserved in the 2nd half.

***Northernhibee*** · 15-12-2012 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by JohnScott

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Sitting in london today reading in an English paper about how Terry Butcher is doing so well on a budget of 800k How come he seems to build build half decent teams on such a small budget then?

You've dodged my question. Answer the question. In our financial situation, which free agent can we sign to improve things at the back?

We were crap in the last half hour today, no question. I'm not pleased with today at all but know the diffrence between form and quality and trust that with some minor tweaking in the transfer window PF will turn it around. He's a young manager and it's a team that was mostly put together in just the one transfer window, we are going to have days like today.

As each transfer window passes my expectations are we'll have less and less days like today, but I'm not going to cry into my pillow tonight about it just yet.

**Ozyhibby** · 15-12-2012 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by Northernhibee

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You've dodged my question. Answer the question. In our financial situation, which free agent can we sign to improve things at the back?

We were crap in the last half hour today, no question. I'm not pleased with today at all but know the diffrence between form and quality and trust that with some minor tweaking in the transfer window PF will turn it around. He's a young manager and it's a team that was mostly put together in just the one transfer window, we are going to have days like today.

As each transfer window passes my expectations are we'll have less and less days like today, but I'm not going to cry into my pillow tonight about it just yet.

Our financial situation is that we have the third highest budget (soon to be 2nd)in the league and the fourth worst defence.
4 out of the back 5 were signed by Pat and 9 out of the starting 11 were signed by Pat.
Cant blame Calderwood forever.

***Northernhibee*** · 15-12-2012 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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Our financial situation is that we have the third highest budget (soon to be 2nd)in the league and the fourth worst defence.
4 out of the back 5 were signed by Pat and 9 out of the starting 11 were signed by Pat.
Cant blame Calderwood forever.

Who blamed Calderwood? Do you think you can entirely turn a team around in one transfer window?

You still don't answer the question. Have a wee read of the AGM and annual accounts thread, we don't have money to spend.

You're vocal enough any time we have a bad result, time for you to start speaking up about what we should do and who we should sign. Or are you another loudmouth who has no clue on what's best for the club?

Oh, I belive in the Steven Doris thread it's emerged that PF is happy for suggestions to be e-mailed to the scouts. Whoever you suggest on here make sure you forward the suggestion to them as well.

**Ozyhibby** · 15-12-2012 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Northernhibee

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Who blamed Calderwood? Do you think you can entirely turn a team around in one transfer window?

You still don't answer the question. Have a wee read of the AGM and annual accounts thread, we don't have money to spend.

You're vocal enough any time we have a bad result, time for you to start speaking up about what we should do and who we should sign. Or are you another loudmouth who has no clue on what's best for the club?

Oh, I belive in the Steven Doris thread it's emerged that PF is happy for suggestions to be e-mailed to the scouts. Whoever you suggest on here make sure you forward the suggestion to them as well.

Just pointing out the facts. Im not suggesting any players, thats Pat's job. Maybe that they are not being set up properly and no new signings are required. All im saying is that we are still losing goals at a drastic rate, as we have for the last 3 years with no sign of improvement. Luckily our attacking play has improved.
Besides, if you cant be grumpy after chucking away a two goal lead at home, then when can you?

**hibbybrian** · 15-12-2012 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

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We looked ok at the back 1st half.

As you say if you stand off teams, sit deep and let them have the ball then you are asking for trouble.

We got what we deserved in the 2nd half.

**Sir David Gray** · 15-12-2012 05:28 PM

Until Clancy comes back, I don't think we really have much option in terms of who we play in defence. We need to strengthen in January, although the statements from the board over the past few weeks would indicate that we shouldn't get our hopes up for that actually happening.

***neil7908*** · 15-12-2012 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by Thecat23

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Hibs are crying out for wide men. We are unbelievably narrow and that's why we get battered down the wings. We need to start doing that to teams and have these wing men drop back and support but also quick enough to catch teams on the break.

Agree 100%, the number of goals we are losing from crosses/headers is very worrying. I would love to see us sign a decent left winger in January and move Cairney into the centre. I think we are really stuggling for someone in midfield to dictate the play and offer a bit more going forward. Claros, Taiwo and Deegan are good at what they do but offer nothing further up the field - how many goals/assists will they contribute? That is not a criticism of them but i dont think the team needs 2 simlar players in that area of the pitch.

Transfer window is huge for us. Keep the loanees and bring in 2-3 decent players then I'm confident for the rest of the season. Based on the info frm the AGM though its far more likely the loan players will leave, we'll struggle with replacements and there wont be funding to address the other issues in the team. In that senario I can see us struggling to make the top 6.

**heretoday** · 15-12-2012 07:14 PM

Hibs defences were always fragile. Even the Tornadoes. Everything's going great and then......................BANG!

***Northernhibee*** · 15-12-2012 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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Just pointing out the facts. Im not suggesting any players, thats Pat's job. Maybe that they are not being set up properly and no new signings are required. All im saying is that we are still losing goals at a drastic rate, as we have for the last 3 years with no sign of improvement. Luckily our attacking play has improved.
Besides, if you cant be grumpy after chucking away a two goal lead at home, then when can you?

There are some people that seem grumpy after a Hibs loss and some that seem delighted.

The "That's Pat's job" line has been wheeled out so many times on this board, it seems that when there's a "put up or shut up" moment on this board too many people choose the latter.

I think we're uncomfortable with a two goal lead for one reason or another and we need to troubleshoot why this is. One goal up we're happy to keep going for a second then afterwards we look far from sharp. We need to work on building a mentality that we defend by keeping the ball in the opponents half and that comes with time.

***J-C*** · 15-12-2012 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

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The defence were dominant and solid in the first half.

Any defence in the world is going to struggle if we decide to give the ball to the opposition .

Blame the midfield who disappeared in the 2nd half, you need a strong midfield to support your defence.

**AK86** · 15-12-2012 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by heretoday

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Hibs defences were always fragile. Even the Tornadoes. Everything's going great and then......................BANG!

Aye right enough
stanton blackley brownlie shades, they were murder

that defence would walk this league

**Devilstorment** · 15-12-2012 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by jc1

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Blame the midfield who disappeared in the 2nd half, you need a strong midfield to support your defence.

bang on. We had 5 in midfield and it looked like we had none!! the defence can only do so much, if the opposition are bossing the midfield balls will continue to come in to the box and its just a matter of time before one finds its way in to the back of the net.

Our back 4 are not great by any stretch but the blame needs to be shared

**monktonharp** · 16-12-2012 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by jc1

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Blame the midfield who disappeared in the 2nd half, you need a strong midfield to support your defence.

spot on. I sat watching the whole game, on my tod today and first half we played some good stuff,with the defence holding their ground very well and that includes the whole back four. It all went tits up when they got their first goal. we lost it,totally lost it in the midfield.Widdy became invisible,Taoao or whatever you spell it,seemed to get injured, Claros lost the plot.Paul Cairney give his all, but sometimes his lack of class comes out. as for the defence, our captain looked like rudolph the red nose reindeer after the hour( and was booked early ) he should have been subbed after the hour. the big blond handsome left back was torn up for ersepaper at every turn by the 'well winger. he should have been moved in to replace Mc Pake! and a fresh Stevenson brought on. McGiven gave away so many corners, it cost us the game. I'm no manager and dont like to comment on such matters but as I sat on my own, these were my thoughts and the lonesome walk back to the car was not good. I kept asking myself, why the hell did he make the subs he did.?

**monktonharp** · 16-12-2012 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by heretoday

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Hibs defences were always fragile. Even the Tornadoes. Everything's going great and then......................BANG!

dont be silly. If WE HAD THOSE FOUR UNTIL THE END OF THE SEASON, WE'D HAVE WON THE LEAGUE, AND YOU KNOW IT

**marinello59** · 16-12-2012 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by monktonharp

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spot on. I sat watching the whole game, on my tod today and first half we played some good stuff,with the defence holding their ground very well and that includes the whole back four. It all went tits up when they got their first goal. we lost it,totally lost it in the midfield.Widdy became invisible,Taoao or whatever you spell it,seemed to get injured, Claros lost the plot.Paul Cairney give his all, but sometimes his lack of class comes out. as for the defence, our captain looked f/ked after the hour( and was booked early ) he should have been subbed after the hour. the big blond handsome left back was torn up for ersepaper at every turn by the 'well winger. he should have been moved in to replace Mc Pake! and a fresh Stevenson brought on. McGiven gave away so many corners, it cost us the game. I'm no manager and dont like to comment on such matters but as I sat on my own, these were my thoughts and the lonesome walk back to the car was not good. I kept asking myself, why the hell did he make the subs he did.?

**Hibby 2005** · 16-12-2012 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by monktonharp

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spot on. I sat watching the whole game, on my tod today and first half we played some good stuff,with the defence holding their ground very well and that includes the whole back four. It all went tits up when they got their first goal. we lost it,totally lost it in the midfield.Widdy became invisible,Taoao or whatever you spell it,seemed to get injured, Claros lost the plot.Paul Cairney give his all, but sometimes his lack of class comes out. as for the defence, our captain looked f/ked after the hour( and was booked early ) he should have been subbed after the hour. the big blond handsome left back was torn up for ersepaper at every turn by the 'well winger. he should have been moved in to replace Mc Pake! and a fresh Stevenson brought on. McGiven gave away so many corners, it cost us the game. I'm no manager and dont like to comment on such matters but as I sat on my own, these were my thoughts and the lonesome walk back to the car was not good. I kept asking myself, why the hell did he make the subs he did.?

The Well winger would have brushed past Stevenson just as easily as he did McGivern.

The bottom line is a narrow win or at worst a draw was on the cards until Pat Fenlon panicked. The look on every face around me when the first two substitutions were made said it all.

The worrying thing after the game was Fenlon's denial that he made a mistake tactically.

***J-C*** · 16-12-2012 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Hibby 2005

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The Well winger would have brushed past Stevenson just as easily as he did McGivern.

The bottom line is a narrow win or at worst a draw was on the cards until Pat Fenlon panicked. The look on every face around me when the first two substitutions were made said it all.

The worrying thing after the game was Fenlon's denial that he made a mistake tactically.

2

Given that Stevenson is more defensive minded, he would've doubled up with Mcgivern and stopped Humphries, pace has nothing to do with it, proper defending and positioning has.

**pacorosssco** · 16-12-2012 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Northernhibee

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Who blamed Calderwood? Do you think you can entirely turn a team around in one transfer window?

You still don't answer the question. Have a wee read of the AGM and annual accounts thread, we don't have money to spend.

You're vocal enough any time we have a bad result, time for you to start speaking up about what we should do and who we should sign. Or are you another loudmouth who has no clue on what's best for the club?

Oh, I belive in the Steven Doris thread it's emerged that PF is happy for suggestions to be e-mailed to the scouts. Whoever you suggest on here make sure you forward the suggestion to them as well.

terry butcher has this year but he hasnt in others. think its hard to do but it can be done. stuart mcall has to an extent

**Franck Stanton** · 16-12-2012 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by jc1

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Blame the midfield who disappeared in the 2nd half, you need a strong midfield to support your defence.

Exactly, control the midfield and you control the game, they take pressure off the defence, set up chances for the forwards and win you games. Truth is we dont have a strong enough midfield to control games. Especially yesterday, they were posted missing second half with result we were pinned back deep into our own half and ended up just kicking the ball the way we were looking - giving Motherwell possession very cheaply and letting them set up wave after wave of attack. The substitutions didn't help either but that alone wasn't the reason we lost.

**number9dream** · 16-12-2012 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by eric.hibsfan

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Exactly, control the midfield and you control the game, they take pressure off the defence, set up chances for the forwards and win you games. Truth is we dont have a strong enough midfield to control games. Especially yesterday, they were posted missing second half with result we were pinned back deep into our own half and ended up just kicking the ball the way we were looking - giving Motherwell possession very cheaply and letting them set up wave after wave of attack. The substitutions didn't help either but that alone wasn't the reason we lost.

Having three 'water-carriers' in Claros, Taiwo and Deegan on together was a mistake. Keep the ball and the other side can't put you under pressure.
Maybury was shocking for the match-winning goal, backing off and looking like a pensioner trying to cut the cross out.
Do we not have a right-back in the Under-20 side?

Slightly off topic, I'll be disappointed if we don't make Aaron Doran a pre-contract offer in January. Very comfortable on the ball and leads the SPL charts for assists. Just a young guy and his Irish background might appeal to Pat. Liam Kelly is another gifted midfielder that would be in our wage bracket but not sure about his contract situation.

***Scouse Hibee*** · 16-12-2012 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by number9dream

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Having three 'water-carriers' in Claros, Taiwo and Deegan on together was a mistake. Keep the ball and the other side can't put you under pressure.
Maybury was shocking for the match-winning goal, backing off and looking like a pensioner trying to cut the cross out.
Do we not have a right-back in the Under-20 side?

Slightly off topic, I'll be disappointed if we don't make Aaron Doran a pre-contract offer in January. Very comfortable on the ball and leads the SPL charts for assists. Just a young guy and his Irish background might appeal to Pat. Liam Kelly is another gifted midfielder that would be in our wage bracket but not sure about his contract situation.

As was McGivern in the second half virtually every time Humphrey ran at him, strange how many people are quoting Maybury's efforts for the match winning goal though! Incidentally the match winning goal IMO was the first Well goal if you know what I mean!

**ShanksSaidNo** · 16-12-2012 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Northernhibee

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You've dodged my question. Answer the question. In our financial situation, which free agent can we sign to improve things at the back?

We were crap in the last half hour today, no question. I'm not pleased with today at all but know the diffrence between form and quality and trust that with some minor tweaking in the transfer window PF will turn it around. He's a young manager and it's a team that was mostly put together in just the one transfer window, we are going to have days like today.

As each transfer window passes my expectations are we'll have less and less days like today, but I'm not going to cry into my pillow tonight about it just yet.

I admire your optimism, i really do however the whole 'we'll have days like today' attitude doesn't wash with me. The short and long of it is we're shippin goals left right and centre. If we want to be a team pushing for Europe (which undoubtedly we should be) days like today need and should be viewed as utterly unacceptable. Not brushed off with an 'it happens'. Today is the first day since he joined that I've felt properly p*ssed off with McPake and thats the way it should be! Fair doo's we were all frustrated yesterday but for him to commit that foul knowin he was on a booking then react to the red card by throwin the arm band away was ridiculous. To me it didn't show 'he cares' - it showed contempt for the club. No i in team.