England v Scotland 1977

[marinello59]

On ESPN classic just now, Channel 425 on Sky. When we were good.

[iwasthere1972]

My brother was there. Returned to Edinburgh with a couple of goalposts, a penalty spot, a half way line and a net. Happy days.

[Golden Bear]

I was at that game and managed to get a piece of the hallowed turf which I carefully preserved for fully 24 hours. However the offer of 2 cans of lager on the journey home was just too tempting and a hasty swap was arranged.

One of my mates also achieved a lifetime ambition at the end of the game when he got on to the pitch and managed to pee on the centre spot. The said gentleman is currently a Police Officer.

Heh sara sara, whatever will be will be, we *u*ked up yer Jubilee, heh sara sara.

Happy Days.

[Scouse Hibee]

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My brother was there. Returned to Edinburgh with a couple of goalposts, a penalty spot, a half way line and a net. Happy days.

Now a penalty spot and a net is fair enough, but how the **** did he carry the whole halfway line and two goal posts

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

Was that when Kenny nutmegged Clemence ?

[Hibrandenburg]

My dad had just been given a top of the range digital watch (the latest rage) by his Mrs. It didn't enjoy swimming in Trafalgar Fountain as much as he did. He got some stick for that when he got home.

[Hillsidehibby]

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Was that when Kenny nutmegged Clemence ?

No that was at Hampden.

I was not at the game but remember I had a cheeky wee double on a Scotland win and Dunfermline to win The Oaks.......

[southsider]

i was there and remember a couple of daft weegies going round the bars with white painted wood trying to sell "yir 'fishal goalposts" but the posts were metal ! Had a set on my tube back to Kennsington where our hotel was.

[iwasthere1972]

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Now a penalty spot and a net is fair enough, but how the **** did he carry the whole halfway line and two goal posts

He got the four Englishmen who he kidnapped to carry them of course.

Simples.

[stu in nottingham]

I was the 1977 game at Wembley with my auld man. It was such a fantastic occasion (no I didn't take any of the turf!) when the Scotland fans completely took over.

On the pitch, well don't let the 2-1 scoreline deceive you, Scotland were hugely superior that day and ran most of the game apart from the odd lapse at the end. Our midfield at that time in particular were magnificent, Rioch, Masson and Gemmill had all the qualities needed, tackling, vision, fire power, confidence and graft. For me the best-ever Scotland midfield combination. On this occasion I think Asa Hartford - another tremendous midfielder - replaced Archie.

[--------]

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I was the 1977 game at Wembley with my auld man. It was such a fantastic occasion (no I didn't take any of the turf!) when the Scotland fans completely took over.

On the pitch, well don't let the 2-1 scoreline deceive you, Scotland were hugely superior that day and ran most of the game apart from the odd lapse at the end. Our midfield at that time in particular were magnificent, Rioch, Masson and Gemmill had all the qualities needed, tackling, vision, fire power, confidence and graft. For me the best-ever Scotland midfield combination. On this occasion I think Asa Hartford - another tremendous midfielder - replaced Archie.

Aye we had a REALLY good midfield in those days.

Tackling, vision, firepower, confidence, and graft ...

GRAFT I believe - I reckon they'd found a bookies in Cordoba and put their year's wages on Peru.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fXMwkcmkzw

Pity Masson wasnae too good at taking penalties ...

... and the manager was a total utter pillock.

Thinking of which - would we be better off with No-Hope Levein or Ally McPrat?

[stu in nottingham]

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Aye we had a REALLY good midfield in those days.

Tackling, vision, firepower, confidence, and graft ...

GRAFT I believe - I reckon they'd found a bookies in Cordoba and put their year's wages on Peru.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fXMwkcmkzw

Pity Masson wasnae too good at taking penalties ...

... and the manager was a total utter pillock.

Thinking of which - would we be better off with No-Hope Levein or Ally McPrat?

That team was largely put together by Willie Ormond though, not McLeod. He took it on and let it run before making a mess of it.

Did you forget Masson's penalty that helped Scotland through in the qualifiers? Masson was an exceptional footballer who showed it with some imperious displays for the QPR team that narrowly finished second to Liverpool in the old First Division. The very greatest players have missed penalties - yes even (and particularly) very important ones.

I think you're being very harsh. Scotland were an excellent side around 1975/6/7. We all know that the team had gone over the top a year or so later. It's easy with hindsight to state that.

[blackpoolhibs]

Were Rioch and Masson not English?

[stu in nottingham]

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Were Rioch and Masson not English?

Rioch was born in Aldershot, Masson was born and bred in Banchory.

[Jonnyboy]

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Were Rioch and Masson not English?

Aye, much like Cropley and Goram

[stu in nottingham]

...and Joe Baker.

[--------]

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That team was largely put together by Willie Ormond though, not McLeod. He took it on and let it run before making a mess of it.

Did you forget Masson's penalty that helped Scotland through in the qualifiers? Masson was an exceptional footballer who showed it with some imperious displays for the QPR team that narrowly finished second to Liverpool in the old First Division. The very greatest players have missed penalties - yes even (and particularly) very important ones.

I think you're being very harsh. Scotland were an excellent side around 1975/6/7. We all know that the team had gone over the top a year or so later. It's easy with hindsight to state that.

Sorry Stu - Missing Smilie Syndrome strikes again. Should have had a in there.

Willie was very badly treated by the SFA - McLeod wanted the job and lobbied shamelessly with the blazers at park Gardens to get it. Nobody will ever know the full details, but I do remember Ian Archer of the Herald speaking about it one evening and being very clear, and very angry about the way McLeod and his cronies had put a better man out of his job and then wrecked the team.

The team hadn't gone quite as far over the top as all that, though - they were the only team to beat the Dutch in 90 minutes, and while the Dutch might not have been quite as committed as they might have been - didn't losing to us get them a slightly better draw in the next round? - the only other team to beat them was Argentina, and they had certain advantages Scotland didn't have.

Rough was a top-class keeper - it's easy to make fun of his perm, but he was. He wasn't at fault in those goals at Cordoba - he set up the wall according to McLeod's instructions, only to find out too late that Cubillas could strike the ball with either foot. Ally had told him Cubillas was one-footed, and then told him the wrong foot. He also told the team that Cubillas, Cueto and Co. were all well past their best. I think he thought they were all as old as Hector Chumpitaz, who was 35. Well, they weren't.

I could never work out the selection that night - Buchan and Forsyth as the centre-backs, Burns out at left-back, and a thin midfield - Gemmill only came on late - with Willie Johnston out wide. I think the clip, poor quality as it is, shows the problems very clearly

The idiot McLeod really thought that all we had to do was turn up. Even now I find it very hard to excuse anything he did with Scotland - and to forgive myself for being taken in by him.

But then maybe Cordoba was just karma for Jordan's cheating hand-ball at Anfield ...

[stu in nottingham]

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Sorry Stu - Missing Smilie Syndrome strikes again. Should have had a in there.

Willie was very badly treated by the SFA - McLeod wanted the job and lobbied shamelessly with the blazers at park Gardens to get it. Nobody will ever know the full details, but I do remember Ian Archer of the Herald speaking about it one evening and being very clear, and very angry about the way McLeod and his cronies had put a better man out of his job and then wrecked the team.

The team hadn't gone quite as far over the top as all that, though - they were the only team to beat the Dutch in 90 minutes, and while the Dutch might not have been quite as committed as they might have been - didn't losing to us get them a slightly better draw in the next round? - the only other team to beat them was Argentina, and they had certain advantages Scotland didn't have.

Rough was a top-class keeper - it's easy to make fun of his perm, but he was. He wasn't at fault in those goals at Cordoba - he set up the wall according to McLeod's instructions, only to find out too late that Cubillas could strike the ball with either foot. Ally had told him Cubillas was one-footed, and then told him the wrong foot. He also told the team that Cubillas, Cueto and Co. were all well past their best. I think he thought they were all as old as Hector Chumpitaz, who was 35. Well, they weren't.

I could never work out the selection that night - Buchan and Forsyth as the centre-backs, Burns out at left-back, and a thin midfield - Gemmill only came on late - with Willie Johnston out wide. I think the clip, poor quality as it is, shows the problems very clearly

The idiot McLeod really thought that all we had to do was turn up. Even now I find it very hard to excuse anything he did with Scotland - and to forgive myself for being taken in by him.

But then maybe Cordoba was just karma for Jordan's cheating hand-ball at Anfield ...

No bother, Doddie. Agree with a lot of your points there and I think your analysis of the '78 side and the campaign is pretty spot-on. Who can forget the silly triumphalism before the tourney, augmented by McLeod's naivety and stupidity. Scotland lost a good man in Willie in my view, I had a lot of respect for what he did for the national team.

That season, if my memory serves me correctly, Kenny Burns had just won a Player of the Year award in the English First Division. I watched him with Forest through that campaign and he looked like one of the best, classiest and hardest centre backs I'd ever seen - he had a phenomenal season. He wasn't a regular in Dark Blue at that time though and that fool McLeod appeared to think he could utilise his talents at left-back. Burns had never been - nor never would be an accomplished full-back.

That kind of thing was just the sort of muddled thinking, along with misplaced 'whae's like us' arrogance that McLeod indulged in. He appeared to imagine all we had to do was turn up and win and he could take the accolades afterwards.

Scotland had some fine players in that period, a smattering of genuine world class in the likes of Dalglish and soon-to-be Souness, depth in midfield and particularly wide players. Rough was much-maligned south of the border but any Hibby knows the quality keeper he was. The attitude they took into the competition was very wide of the mark though. there was no hunger and they had achieved little at that point apart from dishing out to England a couple of beatings. It was a time they could have kicked on and developed something good but sadly history records differently.

As a footnote you might be interested to hear that Don Masson became a changed man after THAT penalty miss and the World Cup. A famously difficult man on the pitch and in the changing room he afterwards turned to Christianity and in his own words 'became a better person'. He has long run a guest house in the Vale of Belvoir and is apparently these days exceedingly pleasant company according to his former team mates!

[--------]

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No bother, Doddie. Agree with a lot of your points there and I think your analysis of the '78 side and the campaign is pretty spot-on. Who can forget the silly triumphalism before the tourney, augmented by McLeod's naivety and stupidity. Scotland lost a good man in Willie in my view, I had a lot of respect for what he did for the national team.

That season, if my memory serves me correctly, Kenny Burns had just won a Player of the Year award in the English First Division. I watched him with Forest through that campaign and he looked like one of the best, classiest and hardest centre backs I'd ever seen - he had a phenomenal season. He wasn't a regular in Dark Blue at that time though and that fool McLeod appeared to think he could utilise his talents at left-back. Burns had never been - nor never would be an accomplished full-back.

That kind of thing was just the sort of muddled thinking, along with misplaced 'whae's like us' arrogance that McLeod indulged in. He appeared to imagine all we had to do was turn up and win and he could take the accolades afterwards.

Scotland had some fine players in that period, a smattering of genuine world class in the likes of Dalglish and soon-to-be Souness, depth in midfield and particularly wide players. Rough was much-maligned south of the border but any Hibby knows the quality keeper he was. The attitude they took into the competition was very wide of the mark though. there was no hunger and they had achieved little at that point apart from dishing out to England a couple of beatings. It was a time they could have kicked on and developed something good but sadly history records differently.

As a footnote you might be interested to hear that Don Masson became a changed man after THAT penalty miss and the World Cup. A famously difficult man on the pitch and in the changing room he afterwards turned to Christianity and in his own words 'became a better person'. He has long run a guest house in the Vale of Belvoir and is apparently these days exceedingly pleasant company according to his former team mates!

Now I feel REALLY bad about mocking the poor lad.

You're right - Kenny Burns was a hugely under-rated player - which suited Brian Clough down to the ground. "The ugliest player I ever signed," IIRC.

I'm sure you've seen this many times, Stu, but it's always worth watching again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2NhFoXT9s8

You just KNOW he's up to something in that wall - priceless.

[stu in nottingham]

Ha! Kenny was an animal - but he could play alright! I loved the way he took a wee look left and right before he nutted Powling in the back of the head. The thing about Burns was that only would he indulge in kicking his opponents up and down the pitch all Saturday after he regularly made some quality forwards look quite foolish. Pity Scotland never really saw the best of him. I think he was oblivious to pain as there was nothing much between his ears. He has a column in the local rag which came as a shock to me as I didn't know he could read and write.

The Don says 'Hi' by the way.

The Don.jpg

'I was the first Scotsman to miss a penalty. (at a World Cup Finals, Argentina 1978)
It’s made me a better person, I’ve become a christian. But at the time it destroyed me,
and it must have been terrible for my wife and the kids. I still think about it every day.
People tend to forget about the penalty I scored at Anfield against Wales, to get to the world cup.'

[brog]

I was at Wembley in 1977. We had bets on Scotland, Dunfermline to win the Oaks, Scotland to win 2-1 & doubles on correct result & Dunfermline as well as Scotland/Dunfermline. At h/t the scoreboard told us Dunfermline had won the Oaks, at 11-1 I think. A few mins to go & Scotland leading 2-0. Channon weaves into box, Forsyth sticks out a leg & 2 Scots, bedecked in tartan jump up & shout " Penalty "!! We almost got killed but calm was restored when we showed the betting slip!! Paid for the whole trip!
PS, and we got a lift back into town on Rod Stewart's bus as we helped carry his ( blitzed ) old man out the ground! What a day!

[Hibernia Na Eir]

remember watching this game at my grandads in tv.....oot the way he'd yelp!

[BroxburnHibee]