Can big crowds ever return to Scottish football?

[theonlywayisup]

Jim Spence asks? From his blog, it is interesting to look at the average attendances for 1948/49.
Aberdeen 24,200
Dundee 24,532
Celtic 37,171
Hearts 28,196
Hibernian 27,627
Rangers 44,600

It was a boom period post-war for the game and the clubs outside of the Glasgow pair never came close to repeating those enormous crowds. However, while the Glasgow two were still better supported, the gap was much narrower than now and often the two were split by other clubs in the race for the top prize.

Dundee were pipped by one point as Rangers took the title in 1949. The season before, Hibs took the title by two points from Rangers and Celtic finished 12th. In 1950, Rangers again nabbed the top spot, one point ahead of Hibs, who were followed by Hearts, East Fife then Celtic. The following year, Hibs were champions with Rangers and Dundee level on points behind them. It is a snapshot of a time when Scottish football was much more competitive than today. Is it simply wishful thinking that we can find a way to reinvigorate our game and bring a real competitive edge back to it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/jimspence...ut_change.html

Probably, almost certainly, the teams outwith the Old Firm will never get as close in terms of average attendances. What a great pity!

[ScottB]

The Old Firm only have the crowds they do through a mixture of always winning things, and for many of their fans, the sheer hate fuelled rivalry between them. Two years from now I wonder how full Ibrox and Parkhead will be...

As for the rest of us, crowds would be bigger if it was cheaper to go first and foremost, a better, more interesting product, a less repetitive and more competitive league set up would also help, but really, it's cost. A guy at my work summed it up perfectly when he said a game shouldn't cost more than an amount that would 'make you think,' basically priced at a point so that if someone suggested going a long, you'd just agree without thinking, say it was £10 - £15 for a basic seat, which isn't far off the cost of going to the cinema really, you'd get far, far more walk ups. Whether that would lead to more revenue overall I don't know, but you'd get more bodies a long.

[Part/Time Supporter]

No, because what you've seen in football over the last 20 years or so is a massive concentration of power in the hands of an elite. It's the same all over Europe. Even the Old Firm, who initially benefitted from this, are now realising that they are locked out of this elite because it favours clubs from the handful of countries with large TV markets.

[Mikey]

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No, because what you've seen in football over the last 20 years or so is a massive concentration of power in the hands of an elite. It's the same all over Europe. Even the Old Firm, who initially benefitted from this, are now realising that they are locked out of this elite because it favours clubs from the handful of countries with large TV markets.

Agreed. And Scotland in particular struggles because we have England right on our doorstep and Sky is pumping vast amounts of money into their leagues, meaning that every team bar the OF struggles to compete with anything above league 1 or 2. It's just one of the reasons why people are drifting away.

[Barney McGrew]

The season you're talking about would still have seen gate money split between home and away teams. If that happened again then the gap between the rest of the teams and the OF might shorten, but as it sits right now they have too much financial muscle.

[Kaiser1962]

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The season you're talking about would still have seen gate money split between home and away teams. If that happened again then the gap between the rest of the teams and the OF might shorten, but as it sits right now they have too much financial muscle.

And a wage cap of £12pw which meant there was no financial benefit to the player for moving club.

[PatHead]

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And a wage cap of £12pw which meant there was no financial benefit to the player for moving club.

Good point. From reading autobiographies of the time players didn't even move to England from Scotland.

[CalgaryHibs]

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Jim Spence asks? From his blog, it is interesting to look at the average attendances for 1948/49.
Aberdeen 24,200
Dundee 24,532
Celtic 37,171
Hearts 28,196
Hibernian 27,627
Rangers 44,600

It was a boom period post-war for the game and the clubs outside of the Glasgow pair never came close to repeating those enormous crowds. However, while the Glasgow two were still better supported, the gap was much narrower than now and often the two were split by other clubs in the race for the top prize.

Dundee were pipped by one point as Rangers took the title in 1949. The season before, Hibs took the title by two points from Rangers and Celtic finished 12th. In 1950, Rangers again nabbed the top spot, one point ahead of Hibs, who were followed by Hearts, East Fife then Celtic. The following year, Hibs were champions with Rangers and Dundee level on points behind them. It is a snapshot of a time when Scottish football was much more competitive than today. Is it simply wishful thinking that we can find a way to reinvigorate our game and bring a real competitive edge back to it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/jimspence...ut_change.html

Probably, almost certainly, the teams outwith the Old Firm will never get as close in terms of average attendances. What a great pity!

One word NO!

[Kaiser1962]

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Good point. From reading autobiographies of the time players didn't even move to England from Scotland.

It was very rare. Units like the Famous Five, Rangers iron curtain defence, Hearts Conn, Bauld Wardhaugh, or even Celtic as late as 67, would barely last a season and a half in modern tiimes.

For those that are working it out £12 in 1947 would be equivalent to £395.04 today. Even we could compete with that I think.

[blackpoolhibs]

All we need to do is fund womens football, then the crowds will flock back.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Take live football of the tele, and if people want to see it there is only one way they can do that.

[Keith_M]

The season you pointed to was during a period that was completely out of the ordinary for crowds at football matches. Apparently, it was largely related to the feeling of the population after the war. As pointed out by other posters, many clubs had fantastic teams and there wasn't as much incentive for players to move clubs.

It would be more realistic to point to the average attendances between say 1920 and 1980. I'd be willing to bet that the average attendance over that time for most clubs was about the same as it is now (except the OF, who have gone through the highest point in their histories in the last 15-20 years).

[The_Todd]

Ticket prices have risen disproportionately. Back in those days going to the football wouldn't have blown such a massive hole in the budget. Many factors include the spiralling players wages and the fact attendances are capped by all-seater stadia I'd guess.

[LancsHibs]

In 1948 there was little else to do but go to the fitba on a Saturday afternoon

[Pretty Boy]

Looks like playing the bigotry angle is pretty lucrative.

[Scouse Hibee]

3pm KO on a Saturday, when the word weekend meant something, retailers closed half day and a day out meant going somewhere not shopping!

[jgl07]

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Good point. From reading autobiographies of the time players didn't even move to England from Scotland.

Are you joking? Many of the top clubs from England were stuffed with Scottish players even before the maximum wage was abolished.

How come Matt Busby, Bobby Johnstone, Dave Ewing, Andy Black, Jacie Plenderleith and Alex Herd played for Manchester City? I could add Bill Shankley and Tommy Docherty playing for Preston North End amongst numerous others.

[PatHead]

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Are you joking? Many of the top clubs from England were stuffed with Scottish players even before the maximum wage was abolished.

How come Matt Busby, Bobby Johnstone, Dave Ewing, Andy Black, Jacie Plenderleith and Alex Herd played for Manchester City? I could add Bill Shankley and Tommy Docherty playing for Preston North End amongst numerous others.

Yes but other such as Eddie Turnbull, Lawrie Reilly etc never felt the need to move away along the M8 far less to England. Often it was the clubs who felt the need to move players on (Tommy Younger?) with the player having no say in the matter. Others like Dave Mackay actively sought a move. Just saying there was less of a disparity between England and Scotland with wages.

It isn't that long ago wages between Hibs and what are now middle ranking EPL clubs were more or less the same.

[marinello59]

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Yes but other such as Eddie Turnbull, Lawrie Reilly etc never felt the need to move away along the M8 far less to England. Often it was the clubs who felt the need to move players on (Tommy Younger?) with the player having no say in the matter. Others like Dave Mackay actively sought a move. Just saying there was less of a disparity between England and Scotland with wages.

It isn't that long ago wages between Hibs and what are now middle ranking EPL clubs were more or less the same.

Virtually every English team had a backbone of Scottish players. Visible wages may have been similar but there were other inducements on offer.

[PatHead]

What did they have EBTs even then?

[ballengeich]

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Yes but other such as Eddie Turnbull, Lawrie Reilly etc never felt the need to move away along the M8 far less to England. Often it was the clubs who felt the need to move players on (Tommy Younger?) with the player having no say in the matter. Others like Dave Mackay actively sought a move. Just saying there was less of a disparity between England and Scotland with wages.

It isn't that long ago wages between Hibs and what are now middle ranking EPL clubs were more or less the same.

I agree with you about the lesser disparity for established players. The difference was more in the number of opportunities. At the time we're discussing, a lot of the Scottish players in good English teams had moved south from school without ever playing professionally here. The ones who were picked up by the top Scottish clubs had less financial incentive to move away, particularly before England abolished their maximum pay rule.

That continued into the 80s when the Aberdeen and Dundee United teams were able to retain the majority of their stars. I believe Willie Miller got an offer from Rangers to leave Aberdeen, but didn't think it was worth moving for the increase on offer. The great Dundee United of that time were said to be on poor basic pay (and long contracts), but could make huge sums from win bonuses and wouldn't have been much better off by moving south or west.

Going back to the original subject of the thread the answer is probably no. When I started attending ER I could go there for about the same price as a cinema ticket. If I'd had to pay three times the price of a movie it's unlikely I'd have become a regular, purely for financial reasons.

[Kaiser1962]

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Virtually every English team had a backbone of Scottish players. Visible wages may have been similar but there were other inducements on offer.

A lot of Scots guys settled in different areas post war, having been barracksed outwith Scotland during the war itself. I am sure Matt Busby played for us in wartime because he was stationed here.

Johny foreigner was pretty junk at this time as well.

[Jonnyboy]

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A lot of Scots guys settled in different areas post war, having been barracksed outwith Scotland during the war itself. I am sure Matt Busby played for us in wartime because he was stationed here.

Johny foreigner was pretty junk at this time as well.

Indeed he did

http://www.fitbastats.com/hibs/player.php?playerid=555

[Kaiser1962]

I am sure Fergie said something along the lines of when he joined ManU he couldnt return to Aberdeen for players as the guys there were on more money than was on offer at United. Though some players had been persuaded to make the switch (Strachan two years before Ferguson) it is clear the disparity in wages was minimal.

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I agree with you about the lesser disparity for established players. The difference was more in the number of opportunities. At the time we're discussing, a lot of the Scottish players in good English teams had moved south from school without ever playing professionally here. The ones who were picked up by the top Scottish clubs had less financial incentive to move away, particularly before England abolished their maximum pay rule.

That continued into the 80s when the Aberdeen and Dundee United teams were able to retain the maj Iority of their stars. believe Willie Miller got an offer from Rangers to leave Aberdeen, but didn't think it was worth moving for the increase on offer. The great Dundee United of that time were said to be on poor basic pay (and long contracts), but could make huge sums from win bonuses and wouldn't have been much better off by moving south or west.

Going back to the original subject of the thread the answer is probably no. When I started attending ER I could go there for about the same price as a cinema ticket. If I'd had to pay three times the price of a movie it's unlikely I'd have become a regular, purely for financial reasons.

[Kato]

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And a wage cap of £12pw which meant there was no financial benefit to the player for moving club.

Wasn't the wage cap in England only? Can't remember ever reading it applied in Scotland.

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Good point. From reading autobiographies of the time players didn't even move to England from Scotland.

Mmm. Not quite true. Plenty players went down south from Scotland. Mainly because of the signing on fees offered.

[ballengeich]

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Wasn't the wage cap in England only? Can't remember ever reading it applied in Scotland.

That's right. It was abolished in England in 1961 after court action by the players' union - leader Jimmy Hill.

[Kaiser1962]

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Wasn't the wage cap in England only? Can't remember ever reading it applied in Scotland .

I think thats right Kato but it would undoubtedly have been used as a benchmark for maximum wages here.

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Mmm. Not quite true. Plenty players went down south from Scotland. Mainly because of the signing on fees offered.

I think most of them were already there to be fair. Only one of significance immediately post war was Jimmy Delaney who moved from Celtic to Man United for £4000 but moved back to Aberdeen in 1950. In the late forties United paid a British record £18k for a guy called John Downie who was a Scot but never played in this country. Then there were guys like Tommy Docherty who joined PNE because he couldnt get in the Celtic team. Arsenal had a few Scots as well but guys like Archie McCaulay and Alex Forbes had played in Scotland pre war but settled in England post war.

There was movement as you say but, like Delaney, it was more of an even playing field, maybe because of the maximum wage in England.

[Kato]

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I think thats right Kato but it would undoubtedly have been used as a benchmark for maximum wages here.

I think most of them were already there to be fair. Only one of significance immediately post war was Jimmy Delaney who moved from Celtic to Man United for £4000 but moved back to Aberdeen in 1950. In the late forties United paid a British record £18k for a guy called John Downie who was a Scot but never played in this country. Then there were guys like Tommy Docherty who joined PNE because he couldnt get in the Celtic team. Arsenal had a few Scots as well but guys like Archie McCaulay and Alex Forbes had playing in Scotland pre war but settled in England post war.

There was movement as you say but, like Delaney, it was more of an even playing field, maybe because of the maximum wage in England.

In Eddie Turnbull's book I'm sure he says the main inducement for players moving South was the signing on fees offered - Matt Busby was determined to take Turnbull to Man U but for whatever reason it never worked out. It did for Bobby Johnstone who moved for 22,000 Grand. Also pretty sure there would be under the counter payments made.

From personal memory from the late 60's to the late 90's there was a big percentage of Scots in any given English club side.

Just saying there was movement and plenty of it, despite no wage cap here.

[Purple & Green]

I think Mikey and p/t nail the main points in this debate - but I think we need debate in Scotland about a blueprint for a way forward. Community clubs with outside funding is something I'm sure has been looked into. The problem with the spl years - since 1998 - is that our league is now more uncompetitive than its ever been, so who wants to watch that?

[Purple & Green]

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In Eddie Turnbull's book I'm sure he says the main inducement for players moving South was the signing on fees offered - Matt Busby was determined to take Turnbull to Man U but for whatever reason it never worked out. It did for Bobby Johnstone who moved for 22,000 Grand. Also pretty sure there would be under the counter payments made.

From personal memory from the late 60's to the late 90's there was a big percentage of Scots in any given English club side.

Just saying there was movement and plenty of it, despite no wage cap here.

I don't have Tony Smith's book to hand but as I remember the insinuation in it was that the Hibs players under Harry Swan were the best paid under the counter players in Scotland.

The other big difference - as I'm sure you remember - is that players prior to 1980? Simply couldn't move if clubs didn't release their registration - eg if lawrie Reilly had wanted to move and Hibs didn't want to let him go then he went nowhere. Different to now when players just run down their contract.