The Fenlon Debate

**~~Nailrod~~** · 28-08-2012 09:18 PM

Since there seemed to be some rather heated exchanges on the match thread tonight about whether Fenlon is useless or not, and if so how useless he is, I thought I would offer a little clarity:

Ratings of our last five managers (% performance in all matches against SPL opposition based on 3 pts for a win, 1 for a draw, 0 for a loss)

Collins: 49%
Mixu: 42%
Yogi: 38%
CC: 33%
PF: 37%

So PF is better than Calderwood and only marginally worse than Yogi. Having said that, in presiding over a 0-5 reverse at home to Celtic, an utter humiliation against Hearts in the cup, and now a pumping out of the League Cup by 2nd Division opponents, PF has three ribbons on his chest that none of his predecessors quite managed.

***Sean1875*** · 28-08-2012 09:20 PM

He is also the only manager out of them that had to immediatly follow the mess that CC left behind. That has to be taken into account in terms of percentages.

**S.sct** · 28-08-2012 09:21 PM

Livid about tonight but we need to give the guy time. Window closes on Friday, lets hope he brings in a bit of pace and guile to the midfield.

**~~Speedway~~** · 28-08-2012 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by S.sct

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Livid about tonight but we need to give the guy time. Window closes on Friday, lets hope he brings in a bit of pace and guile to the midfield.

He's supposed to have done that already.

***Vault Boy*** · 28-08-2012 09:25 PM

Don't, just don't.

**HibeeSince85** · 28-08-2012 09:27 PM

Poor result, Hibs losing in their first game in the cup to a 2nd division side is never acceptable.

Shouldn't even be talking about emptying him just now though.

**~~The_Horde~~** · 28-08-2012 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by Speedway

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He's supposed to have done that already.

In whom?

**gackohibs** · 28-08-2012 09:27 PM

the percentages also tell a very obvious story. the slow decline of quality at hibs!!

I strongly believe Pat Fenlon is the man to take us forward. We have already shown improvement in the new signings he has made!
Keep the Faith!!

**Hibee Ryan** · 28-08-2012 09:27 PM

Out of those 5 he was left with the worst squad and didn't have a summer transfer window to sort it out, last season was written off when he took over, he was meant to keep us up and he did. Fenlon is the only one to get to a Scottish cup final as well

. Not one of us ever thought about getting to the Scottish cup final as possible when Fenlon took over, start a fresh, look at his results so far this season and he's looking much better than the stats suggest

***matty_f*** · 28-08-2012 09:28 PM

I think he's good enough and is the man for the job, but he got it horribly wrong tonight.

Regardless of the team selection there has to be a question over his tactics tonight.

***500miles*** · 28-08-2012 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by Speedway

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He's supposed to have done that already.

That's right, because he's been static in the transfer market.

Major surgery takes time.

**~~Speedway~~** · 28-08-2012 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by Slenj.=]

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In whom?

Cairney was supposed to have pace and Deegan was supposed to have guile.

**~~Nailrod~~** · 28-08-2012 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by Sean1875

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He is also the only manager out of them that had to immediatly follow the mess that CC left behind. That has to be taken into account in terms of percentages.

Do I have to put tonight's result down to Fenlon still sorting out the mess that CC left behind as well? I confess I would struggle with that one a bit.

**~~Speedway~~** · 28-08-2012 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by Nailrod

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Do I have to put tonight's result down to Fenlon still sorting out the mess that CC left behind as well? I confess I would struggle with that one a bit.

And Calderwood gets a pass because he was the only one who had to inherit Yogi's mess.

**Hibee Ryan** · 28-08-2012 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by Speedway

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And Calderwood gets a pass because he was the only one who had to inherit Yogi's mess.

Calderwood managed to take the mess that Yogi left and made it worse, I didn't think that was possible but he managed it

**happiehibbie** · 28-08-2012 09:34 PM

For me Mr Fenlon is not the man for the job (i hope am wrong) i dont want to go on and on but fix it before its to late

**ScottB** · 28-08-2012 09:38 PM

There was always going to be ups and downs this season.

The three good games in a row did not meant that a 'last season' esque performance wasn't lurking ready to return. Equally, nor does this one performance mean that we won't see any more performances like we've seen in the last couple games.

We have a decent starting 11 now, tonight showed that drafting back in some of the weak links from last season can quickly undo things. Hopefully those on high take note and release enough funds to prevent them from having to be seen again. Perhaps, as well as resting important players, tonight was to give those guys one last chance to impress, or indeed, enough rope to hang themselves with...

I'm willing to judge Pat on this season alone, so his percentage stats so far don't overly concern me. Should we go through this season and still be in the 30% range, then he will be out of excuses and had more than enough time to prove himself, and should go accordingly. Personally I think he'll get us into the top 6 at least this season, but only time will tell.

**~~Nailrod~~** · 28-08-2012 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by Hibee Ryan

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Out of those 5 he was left with the worst squad and didn't have a summer transfer window to sort it out, last season was written off when he took over, he was meant to keep us up and he did. Fenlon is the only one to get to a Scottish cup final as well. Not one of us ever thought about getting to the Scottish cup final as possible when Fenlon took over, start a fresh, look at his results so far this season and he's looking much better than the stats suggest

I think perhaps a wee bit of honesty is needed about that particular achievement. We got to the Scottish Cup Final last season without having to play a single team from the top half of the SPL. Which was probably just as well, because when you look at our results last season against the six teams who did finish in the top half of the SPL, we managed the princely total of one win in twenty tries (plus a win on pens v Motherwell).

And when we eventually did have to face a team from the top half of the SPL, things didn't actually turn out very well.

**Heedersnvolleys** · 28-08-2012 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by Sean1875

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He is also the only manager out of them that had to immediatly follow the mess that CC left behind. That has to be taken into account in terms of percentages.

Sorry but it looks like he is creating his own mess himself. Having to sign another left back this season as his original left back he signed he does not want tp play as he is murder!

Lets face it I think people were getting a bit carried away with our 2 wins and a draw where we have been poor in spells of the games. Up until we scored on Saturday it reminded so much of the stuff we had to endure last season.

***Jonnyboy*** · 28-08-2012 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by matty_f

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I think he's good enough and is the man for the job, but he got it horribly wrong tonight.

Regardless of the team selection there has to be a question over his tactics tonight.

Agreed.

Not to mention his tactics in the Cup Final.

Regardless, the players must shoulder most of the blame. I wasn't there tonight but the reports from those that were, together with the result would suggest the players performed poorly. Now the conundrum for me is - are they just ****** or were they given crap tactics and instructions?

**IberianHibernian** · 28-08-2012 09:40 PM

Terrible result tonight and Fenlon must take his share of blame but a lot of the folk who criticise him today and before seem to have been criticising him for whatever reason ( footballing or not ) since he was appointed . With Yogi it was obvious that quite a few here were dead against his appointment and didn`t even give grudging praise when we were doing well under him and even seemed to enjoy the " I told you so " when things went wrong . Probably the same with CC , Mixu etc too . Genuine criticism of managers for their tactics and signings etc including praise if / when things go well might be more useful . In the 45 years I`ve supported Hibs , Turnbull ( sacked as he led us towards relegation ) and Mowbray ( a failure as a manager since and lots of bad signings and cup results while with us ) were considered to be the best by " experts " . Of the recent managers , each one has inherited a worse squad than his predecessor . Is there really much difference between any of the managers at Hibs or elsewhere ?

**Hibee Ryan** · 28-08-2012 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by Nailrod

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I think perhaps a wee bit of honesty is needed about that particular achievement. We got to the Scottish Cup Final last season without having to play a single team from the top half of the SPL. Which was probably just as well, because when you look at our results last season against the six teams who did finish in the top half of the SPL, we managed the princely total of one win in twenty tries (plus a win on pens v Motherwell).

And when we eventually did have to face a team from the top half of the SPL, things didn't actually turn out very well.

Fair enough but against Killie, I'm 100% we would of lost with Calderwood as manager. We lost 5-0 (I think?) with Calderwood as manager at Rugby Park but beat them in the league with Fenlon in the return fixture and in the cup

***CallumLaidlaw*** · 28-08-2012 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by Jonnyboy

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Agreed.

Not to mention his tactics in the Cup Final.

Regardless, the players must shoulder most of the blame. I wasn't there tonight but the reports from those that were, together with the result would suggest the players performed poorly. Now the conundrum for me is - are they just ****** or were they given crap tactics and instructions?

Pat Fenlon "disgusted" with Hibs performance. Strong stuff. Even hinted he might be "back in for a look" at on or two Queens players.

***Jonnyboy*** · 28-08-2012 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by CallumLaidlaw

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Pat Fenlon "disgusted" with Hibs performance. Strong stuff. Even hinted he might be "back in for a look" at on or two Queens players.

And so he should be. Was he interviewed by the Beeb? I switched off after the end of the Livi game as I couldn't stand listening to that dick Preston

**~~Nailrod~~** · 28-08-2012 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by CallumLaidlaw

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Pat Fenlon "disgusted" with Hibs performance. Strong stuff. Even hinted he might be "back in for a look" at one or two Queens players.

It might have been helpful if he had done that before the game as well.

**~~The_Horde~~** · 28-08-2012 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Speedway

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Cairney was supposed to have pace and Deegan was supposed to have guile.

I could be wrong, but I don't remember anybody saying he had pace? All i remember was Fenlon saying he offers us 'something different' in midfield and could get us some goals..

Originally Posted by Nailrod

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I think perhaps a wee bit of honesty is needed about that particular achievement. We got to the Scottish Cup Final last season without having to play a single team from the top half of the SPL. Which was probably just as well, because when you look at our results last season against the six teams who did finish in the top half of the SPL, we managed the princely total of one win in twenty tries (plus a win on pens v Motherwell).

And when we eventually did have to face a team from the top half of the SPL, things didn't actually turn out very well.

Although, in the previous 2 or 3 seasons under CC and Yogi we had been put of the SC by lower division teams.

***Danderhall Hibs*** · 28-08-2012 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Jonnyboy

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Agreed.

Not to mention his tactics in the Cup Final.

Regardless, the players must shoulder most of the blame. I wasn't there tonight but the reports from those that were, together with the result would suggest the players performed poorly. Now the conundrum for me is - are they just ****** or were they given crap tactics and instructions?

Every player in the squad with 2 years or less on their contract should've been emptied after the Final. As it is the first 11 are ok and will get by but as soon as you change a couple we're back into the dregs. They're not good enough, never have been, never will be.

***CallumLaidlaw*** · 28-08-2012 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Jonnyboy

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And so he should be. Was he interviewed by the Beeb? I switched off after the end of the Livi game as I couldn't stand listening to that dick Preston

Not sure. Picked that up from a journo on twitter

***rubber mal*** · 28-08-2012 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by Nailrod

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Since there seemed to be some rather heated exchanges on the match thread tonight about whether Fenlon is useless or not, and if so how useless he is, I thought I would offer a little clarity:

Ratings of our last five managers (% performance in all matches against SPL opposition based on 3 pts for a win, 1 for a draw, 0 for a loss)

Collins: 49%
Mixu: 42%
Yogi: 38%
CC: 33%
PF: 37%

So PF is better than Calderwood and only marginally worse than Yogi. Having said that, in presiding over a 0-5 reverse at home to Celtic, an utter humiliation against Hearts in the cup, and now a pumping out of the League Cup by 2nd Division opponents, PF has three ribbons on his chest that none of his predecessors quite managed.

It's not quite that simple though, is it? If your list of percentages proves anything it's that continually changing the manager is not the answer.