2012 US Open

[JimBHibees]

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He never knows when he's beaten, that's for sure, but he's a sublime tennis player and one of the all-time greats.

Some of the slagging Andy was getting, you'd think he was playing a rookie, instead of the defending champion and winner of five Grand Slam tournaments so far. Djokovic was the guy who broke the three-year spell (2005-08) when Federer and Nadal passed Grand Slam titles back and forth between them with no one else getting a look-in. Up till last night, only Federer or Nadal have beaten him in the big finals.

A men's final. five sets and four hours duration and upwards, is always a gut-wrencher. And both players will make many 'unforced errors' - unforced, that is, according to the commentators. But that's what makes it a spectacle.

Agree Djokovic is a fantastic tennis player it is like playing against a wall with some of the balls he gets back some of which appear humanly impossible to get back. The physical and mental toll that these players put themselves through over 5 hours will always mean that there are stages in the game when their standard will dip that Murray was able to raise again at the start of the 5th set was fantastic and he thoroughly deserved the win.

Andy unluckily for him is playing at a vintage era in Mens tennis against 3 of the best players ever. He made a very good point last night in that the other top 3 players all were able to beat players who hadnt won a slam before (for example Federer beat Phillipousis (sp) Murray's finals have all been against Federer and Djokovic. Winning the Olympics and getting in tow with Lendl have been major pluses this year. Saw an interview with his Grandad ex-Hibee Roy Erskine who basically insinuated that previous coaches had kind of let Andy tell them how he was going to play and that Lendl had the gravitas to be able to tell Andy how they were going to do it.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

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Anyway Murray now isn't the best player to have never won a major.

Thats still Monty's title! ;-)

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Meant to say earlier, I thought Murray's return of serve was phenomenal last night, he has an uncanny knack for returning a big serve into play. I thought Raonic was going to explode with frustration in an earlier round as Murray constantly negated his big serve.

[GhostofBolivar]

This picture's amazing.

[Sergio sledge]

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Genuine question - are you aware of the difference between a forced error and an unforced error? From the highlighted, the answer suggested is "no".

"Forced" and "unforced" are subjective judgements. Hitting it into the net from the centre of the baseline goes down as an unforced error, doesn't matter if it is the 3rd shot in a rally or the 50th shot in a rally. I think what he was meaning is that technically a lot of the errors Murray was making will have been classed as "unforced" but just the fact that Djokovic was getting shot after shot back at Murray, drawing rallies of 10, 20, 30, 40 and even 50 shots is enough to class any errors made as having been forced through sheer pressure exerted. It is in my book anyway.

[PatHead]

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Genuine question - are you aware of the difference between a forced error and an unforced error? From the highlighted, the answer suggested is "no".

Genuine answer-Yes

Think Sergio can see where I am coming from and answered it well. Think there is a large grey area between forced and unforced errors. As with all stats it depends on your interpretation.

By the way do you think Djokovic bottled it in the 1st,2nd and 5th sets when he made many unforced errors? If not, what was different with Murray in the second game of the first set and in sets 3 & 4?

[Sylar]

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Genuine answer-Yes

Think Sergio can see where I am coming from and answered it well. Think there is a large grey area between forced and unforced errors. As with all stats it depends on your interpretation.

Cheers. I wasn't trying to be snippy with my question but I obviously don't know to what extent etc you follow tennis and I didn't pick up the disparity you were addressing, which SS outlined quite well.

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By the way do you think Djokovic bottled it in the 1st,2nd and 5th sets when he made many unforced errors? If not, what was different with Murray in the second game of the first set and in sets 3 & 4?

It's all opinion I guess, but here goes.

5th set: Murray's serve blew an evidently knackered Djokovic off of the court and most of his mistakes were forced (unreturnable serves). He arguably "bottled" (I stress that this is your word here, not mine) his own service game with the amount of double faults but undoubtedly he was fatigued. As was Murray but he showed extra resilience and strength to push through, which commands enormous respect.

2nd set: Again, "bottled" isn't a word I'd use but he certainly entered into the set in a very downbeat manner and surrendered his own serve very easily (meekly, if you wish for linguistic consistency). He came back at Murray very strong from 4-0 down and Murray started making mistakes. I thought a lot of them were "unforced" in the sense that he dumped a lot of balls into the net from the baseline but I guess this is subjective, as you point out.

1st set: How do you "bottle" a set where neither player has had a clear lead and the quality of tennis (despite it's epic nature) was awful? Both players exchanged weak surrenders of serve, with each player chalking up 19 unforced errors throughout the serve. Their tennis was poor (quite possibly as a result of adjusting to the conditions?) but again, Murray stepped up and found the extra level to get out of the set in front.

Murray, for me, just didn't stand up to Djokovic enough in the 3rd and 4th sets but you're right in the sense that it was to be expected when he was 2-0 down. I viewed a lot of Murray's errors as unforced, but from Sergio's description above, I can see why that's perhaps unfair. I also wasn't aware of the changing wind conditions, as I went to bed as soon as I seen him get the trophy and didn't listen to the interviews afterwards!

I wasn't desperate to have a go at Murray last night. I was desperate to see him win and found him so frustrating to watch at times (not just last night, but the tournament in general). Perhaps I was overly vocal in my frustration and perhaps that overshadowed the credit he certainly was due for getting into a commanding position. Regardless, it was a superb performance and an epic match of tennis.

[HibbyAndy]

Im absolutely delighted for Andy Murray!!!.


Ive followed his career closely since he burst on to the scene at Queens, Just utterly chuffed to bits for him and his team he HAS landed a Major.

[PatHead]

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Cheers. I wasn't trying to be snippy with my question but I obviously don't know to what extent etc you follow tennis and I didn't pick up the disparity you were addressing, which SS outlined quite well.



It's all opinion I guess, but here goes.

5th set: Murray's serve blew an evidently knackered Djokovic off of the court and most of his mistakes were forced (unreturnable serves). He arguably "bottled" (I stress that this is your word here, not mine) his own service game with the amount of double faults but undoubtedly he was fatigued. As was Murray but he showed extra resilience and strength to push through, which commands enormous respect.

2nd set: Again, "bottled" isn't a word I'd use but he certainly entered into the set in a very downbeat manner and surrendered his own serve very easily (meekly, if you wish for linguistic consistency). He came back at Murray very strong from 4-0 down and Murray started making mistakes. I thought a lot of them were "unforced" in the sense that he dumped a lot of balls into the net from the baseline but I guess this is subjective, as you point out.

1st set: How do you "bottle" a set where neither player has had a clear lead and the quality of tennis (despite it's epic nature) was awful? Both players exchanged weak surrenders of serve, with each player chalking up 19 unforced errors throughout the serve. Their tennis was poor (quite possibly as a result of adjusting to the conditions?) but again, Murray stepped up and found the extra level to get out of the set in front.

Murray, for me, just didn't stand up to Djokovic enough in the 3rd and 4th sets but you're right in the sense that it was to be expected when he was 2-0 down. I viewed a lot of Murray's errors as unforced, but from Sergio's description above, I can see why that's perhaps unfair. I also wasn't aware of the changing wind conditions, as I went to bed as soon as I seen him get the trophy and didn't listen to the interviews afterwards!

I wasn't desperate to have a go at Murray last night. I was desperate to see him win and found him so frustrating to watch at times (not just last night, but the tournament in general). Perhaps I was overly vocal in my frustration and perhaps that overshadowed the credit he certainly was due for getting into a commanding position. Regardless, it was a superb performance and an epic match of tennis.

Must admit I did find your exasperation overly powerful last night. I thought you used the word bottler but on checking see it was choker a few times.

No sense in falling out over it. We can just agree on being happy for the Big Hibby.

Look forward to the rollercoaster starting again in January when Murray picks up his second slam tournament.

[--------]

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Agree Djokovic is a fantastic tennis player it is like playing against a wall with some of the balls he gets back some of which appear humanly impossible to get back. The physical and mental toll that these players put themselves through over 5 hours will always mean that there are stages in the game when their standard will dip that Murray was able to raise again at the start of the 5th set was fantastic and he thoroughly deserved the win.

Andy unluckily for him is playing at a vintage era in Mens tennis against 3 of the best players ever. He made a very good point last night in that the other top 3 players all were able to beat players who hadnt won a slam before (for example Federer beat Phillipousis (sp) Murray's finals have all been against Federer and Djokovic. Winning the Olympics and getting in tow with Lendl have been major pluses this year. Saw an interview with his Grandad ex-Hibee Roy Erskine who basically insinuated that previous coaches had kind of let Andy tell them how he was going to play and that Lendl had the gravitas to be able to tell Andy how they were going to do it.

A good way of putting it, Jim. Ivan Lendl had to put up with a lot of slagging in his early years as a pro - not least because he was supposed to be a 'choker' like Murray's supposed to be.

I remember watching an indoor match between Lendl and McEnroe around Christmas one year. Lendl was booming down big serves, lots of power and right up to the service line, and Mac was complaining over and over that these serves were long. Lendl would just wait him out, and when the umpire called, 'Play', Lendl would play, and Mac would start another monumental whinge.

What ended it was Mac going off into a tirade about yet another service being long, eventually being told to shut up and get on with the game, and going back to the baseline. Whereupon he took exception to something one of the line judges had said or done, or maybe the guy looked at him the wrong way, or was breathing too loud, and turned to give HIM a piece of the McEnroe mind him - just as the umpire called 'Play' ....

Lendl tossed the ball up in the air and patted it ever so gently just over the net - but it WAS a legal service. The ball bounced three-four times and rolled to a stop in the middle of the court. Umpire called 15-love, and Mac went bananas, screaming and shouting and throwing his racket across the court. He completely lost the plot.

IIRC he ended by losing the game, which lost him the set, which led to him losing the match in the end.

That was the first time I ever saw Lendl smile. And just about the funniest thing I've ever seen on a tennis court.

[Sir David Gray]

Never been so happy to change my profile picture!

Was hoping to be able to do it after May 19th but that didn't quite work out as planned...

This is the next best thing though!

[Sir David Gray]

On the subject of who now becomes known as the greatest tennis player never to have won a Grand Slam, it is quite a difficult one to decide on because all the really great players have won at least one Grand Slam.

Just looking at some of the records, the most obvious candidate would be Marcelo Rios - still the only man who got to world number one without ever having won a Grand Slam title.

Other candidates;

Alex Corretja (French Open finalist on 2 occasions)
Magnus Norman (French Open finalist on 1 occasion)
Tommy Haas (Australian Open and Wimbledon semi finalist)

They all reached number two in the world at some point in their careers.

Maybe someone like David Ferrer might be up there too.

It's quite a difficult one because most of the names which automatically come to mind when you think of men's tennis are people like Federer, Nadal, McEnroe, Sampras and Borg, the big names that have dominated the sport over the years and have won the big prizes.

Andy Murray can no longer be labelled a loser (not that he was one to begin with, mind you, but I know what the British press and a lot of the British public are like). He's now in the big time and hopefully he can go on and add some more to his name over the next few years.