Pure football

[Littlest Hobo]

While watching the Spanish out class the Irish the other night, I was wondering why we can't teach our kids to play the game like this?

Surely our football has hit rock bottom and can't get any worse. Now would be the time to start from scratch.

Surely all the clubs in Scotland should be sending their coaches to Spain to learn the tricks of their trade.

I'm sick of watching ***** Scottish football.

Why can't our coaches and managers employ the tactics of the Spanish and pass, pass,pass the other team to death?

Could this really happen in Scotland? Or do we think that the Spanish are some kind of Special race that only they can play this way?

My belief is that we can play this way but it would take all the clubs managers to get on board, what the hell have we got to lose?

Let's change our culture.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

I actually think that styles of football are a reflection of those countries and peoples culture. If you think of the German or Scottish, the Latin American or the African steriotypes then you can see them reflected in each others style and approach to the game.
To play like the Spannish will take something deeper than coaching from an early age, but it would improve our basic standards but what you see when watching Spain its more than football thats being expressed.

[ScottB]

Not as long as the vital kid stage in Scotland is dominated by the 'win at all costs, pick the big kids and humph it up the park' mentality.

The Spanish have UEFA 5 Star rated coaches from the lowest level of their game up, kids grow up in the system, focused on skills and the like.

What to implement is patently obvious, doubt there's any desire among the many vested interests in our game to step aside though. Can only hope that this Dutch guy can overcome the Leveins and introduce a system for the future.


It is definitely possible however, look at the work Germany has done over the last 12 years.

[Littlest Hobo]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I actually think that styles of football are a reflection of those countries and peoples culture. If you think of the German or Scottish, the Latin American or the African steriotypes then you can see them reflected in each others style and approach to the game.
To play like the Spannish will take something deeper than coaching from an early age, but it would improve our basic standards but what you see when watching Spain its more than football thats being expressed.

Yup I agree with that. Gordon Strachan touched on it the other night, saying that the Spanish are so much more laid back than what we are in everything they do.

For example they take Siesta at the hottest part of the day and just shut up shop.

When they go for a meal they take their time, sometimes taking a couple of hours.

I'm, not suggesting we do copy them in every way but surely when it comes to football they have it sussed.

We must at least try and emulate how they play the game.

I'm not saying we will be as successful as them but if we can play half as good as them then we must be onto a winner.

[Littlest Hobo]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Not as long as the vital kid stage in Scotland is dominated by the 'win at all costs, pick the big kids and humph it up the park' mentality.

The Spanish have UEFA 5 Star rated coaches from the lowest level of their game up, kids grow up in the system, focused on skills and the like.

What to implement is patently obvious, doubt there's any desire among the many vested interests in our game to step aside though. Can only hope that this Dutch guy can overcome the Leveins and introduce a system for the future.


It is definitely possible however, look at the work Germany has done over the last 12 years.

You have made quite a few good points.

Some of those things you mention like picking the big kids and win at all cost is something I think most of us have grown up with. My only hope is that there are some coaches out there who have their own ideas, that don't have a vested interest apart from bringing through the next Scottish Messi.

[Littlest Hobo]

As Hibs supporters should we be calling for our managers to play a passing game or are we quite happy to watch dross as long as it's winning dross?

Example being Spurs, most of their supporters insist on the right manager coming in who will keep the players playing the Spurs way.

Guys like Davie Moyes have been quoted but from what I've heard none of the Spurs fans want him anywhere near WHL.

I think we as Hibees should request that any manager who comes to ER should at least try and play a passing game. Just my opinion.

[Matty_Jack04]

The work done at barcelona is what's made the Spanish national team so pleasing on the eye and successful IMO, there's a spine that play and train together all the time complimented by good players from other clubs, the same with Germany and bayern.
Unfortunatly our kids stop developing around the 21 years old mark and don't get much better I think both culture and how our game is set up is to blame, there's too much at stake for SPL clubs to play youngsters at the top of our game if u get relegated your doomed, although a lot get farmed out you can only learn so much in div 3 and the like

[heretoday]

Good thread. I can't believe 11 Spanish kids are inherently better at ball skills and passing than 11 Scots lads.

[500miles]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Good thread. I can't believe 11 Spanish kids are inherently better at ball skills and passing than 11 Scots lads.

Having ten times the talent pool to pick from, and a climate which doesn't make playing football seem like chore every soggy, sodden day probably helps.

There are cultural and coaching differences, but the above definately counts for something as well.

[woody47]

I think we need to change the mentality of the parents first, then the kids. How many kids just sit in front of PC's, game boys and mobile phones etc instead of being out playing football? How much does it cost a bunch of kids to hire a hall for 5-a-sides? How many kids would rather go and have a bottle of buckie and sit on street corners?
Until we change out whole culture we will never grow into any sort of football nation.
And just look at our so called professionals. How many hours do they actually train in a week? Four/five mornings?
I also think we really need to get schools involved more as well. When my son was at school he was lucky to get one hour a week doing PE and only then it was only once a month would they get to play a bit of football.
The government needs to step in with funds to help but I really cant see that happening.
We also need to get parents more involved in helping as when I was coaching, I felt I was more an unpaid baby sitter than a coach. Parents would just drop their kids off at training or the game and then disappear for the next hour to two hours. Absolutely no help was given. Even helping with putting up nets would mean, as a coach, we would have had an extra fifteen mninutes working with the kids.
As I said, we need to start with the parents and once they are on board the kids will follow.

[Littlest Hobo]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Having ten times the talent pool to pick from, and a climate which doesn't make playing football seem like chore every soggy, sodden day probably helps.

There are cultural and coaching differences, but the above definately counts for something as well.

We can't blame the weather, there are thousands of kids who go to footie training in Scotland during the week and then play at the weekend.

We have the young men in large numbers who want to play but unfortunately they have ben let down over the years in the way they are being coached.

Every coach out there whether they are ametuer or pro should be taking a long hard look at themselves and asking the question, do I coach my team to play football the right way or do I coach just to win football matches.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I think we need to change the mentality of the parents first, then the kids. How many kids just sit in front of PC's, game boys and mobile phones etc instead of being out playing football? How much does it cost a bunch of kids to hire a hall for 5-a-sides? How many kids would rather go and have a bottle of buckie and sit on street corners?
Until we change out whole culture we will never grow into any sort of football nation.
And just look at our so called professionals. How many hours do they actually train in a week? Four/five mornings?
I also think we really need to get schools involved more as well. When my son was at school he was lucky to get one hour a week doing PE and only then it was only once a month would they get to play a bit of football.
The government needs to step in with funds to help but I really cant see that happening.
We also need to get parents more involved in helping as when I was coaching, I felt I was more an unpaid baby sitter than a coach. Parents would just drop their kids off at training or the game and then disappear for the next hour to two hours. Absolutely no help was given. Even helping with putting up nets would mean, as a coach, we would have had an extra fifteen mninutes working with the kids.
As I said, we need to start with the parents and once they are on board the kids will follow.

We used to play at Inverleith park and Warriston during the school hols in the 80s. Got chased off by the parkie at Warriston. Yet dogs were allowed to be walked there - treated worse than dogs! No effing wonder things are going down the tubes if what little green spaces are left are denied to the very people that should be encouraged to use it?

[Hibbyradge]

Go and watch kids football and listen to the way the adults "encourage" their children to, er, develop their skills and take risks.

Then you'll find out what's wrong with our football.

[Kato]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Let's change our culture.

Yeah, good luck with that.

[Littlest Hobo]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Go and watch kids football and listen to the way the adults "encourage" their children to, er, develop their skills and take risks.

Then you'll find out what's wrong with our football.

Maybe we should do something about that ? Maybe ban the parents from watching, I hated my parents watching me play. Added pressure that kids don't need.

Why oh why can't we do something as simple as this??

[Pretty Boy]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Go and watch kids football and listen to the way the adults "encourage" their children to, er, develop their skills and take risks.

Then you'll find out what's wrong with our football.

'Cut out the ****ing fancy stuff'.

The war cry of touchline Hitlers running many, not all, of the youth teams in this country.

[ScottB]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Having ten times the talent pool to pick from, and a climate which doesn't make playing football seem like chore every soggy, sodden day probably helps.

There are cultural and coaching differences, but the above definately counts for something as well.

Well yeah, Spain is an unfair comparison, Denmark would be a spot on comparison. They have a slightly smaller population than us, not a massively different climate, and look at the players they produce consistently.

Uruguay has almost half our population, a much different country / situation, but still. The nations in Europe that have committed to introduce a system from young kids up to international level in the last few decades; France, Spain, Germany etc have all shown that the results will come. I doubt anybody is expecting a similar effort from us to turn us into world beaters, but the current methods are seeing us fall further and further away from just qualifying for a tournament. With the Fletcher / McFadden / Brown generation all likely past their peaks and little sign of similar players, never mind better emerging, especially with us, the supposed famed producers of youth, clearly something must be done.

As I said, I can only hope the Dutch Performance Director the SFA now has has actual power, but I can't ever see all those involved in the Scottish game doing a Germany; everyone getting together, agreeing a plan and following it through for the greater good. There will always be someone who will take the chance to strengthen themselves over everyone else.

[jgl07]

Anyone who has watched Swansea play this season must have been impressed how a newly promoted team could play such a passing style with no real star players. Not only that they suceeded and finished in a healthy mid-table position. I think that in terms of passing statistics they were behind only Manchester City in the PL and up there with the best of Europe.

Too many teams take the kick and rush style typified by Stoke.

Is there any reason that the same approach would not work in Scotland?

[ScottB]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Anyone who has watched Swansea play this season must have been impressed how a newly promoted team could play such a passing style with no real star players. Not only that they suceeded and finished in a healthy mid-table position. I think that in terms of passing statistics they were behind only Manchester City in the PL and up there with the best of Europe.

Too many teams take the kick and rush style typified by Stoke.

Is there any reason that the same approach would not work in Scotland?

They had the 6th highest passing accuracy in Europe, behind Barca, Bayern, City, Real and Chelsea.

Amazingly, Leon Britton had the best accuracy of any player in Europe, finishing ahead of Xavi!


Would it work here? Perhaps. Under Mowbray our passing game fell apart against teams that were happy to try and kick us off the park, but it was a very different game than the possession passing style introduced by Barcelona.

[brianmc]

Apologies for not reading all previous post before commenting BUT it really, really boils ma pish at Easter road when (on the admittedly rare occasion in the last couple of years) the players keep possession, knock the ball across the midfield, then to the back 4 and within 5-6 passes several muppets in the crowd are raging " git it up the ****in park!!". Until this numbskull fan view if the game us changed I fear we are knackered with a capital F.

[marinello59]

Up here in Aberdeen they have only just decided that 11 a side for primary schools is a nonsense. (Despite the fact the rest of Europe and the majority of the UK could see the benefits of the seven a side game a few dinosaurs knew better.) Even now they are trying to get a nine a side league going because they still have trophys to play for. Kids were discarded to the seven a side teams in P6 up here as not being good enough. Bonkers.

[Mibbes Aye]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Apologies for not reading all previous post before commenting BUT it really, really boils ma pish at Easter road when (on the admittedly rare occasion in the last couple of years) the players keep possession, knock the ball across the midfield, then to the back 4 and within 5-6 passes several muppets in the crowd are raging " git it up the ****in park!!". Until this numbskull fan view if the game us changed I fear we are knackered with a capital F.

All my years watching Hibs it's been consistent, you just know that we can be keeping possession and after half a dozen passes, if the ball's going back the way and we're just knocking it about then you can feel the atmosphere change and the disgruntlement start - not amongst everybody but certainly enough folk.

Yet we watch a Spain or whomever do it and we think "Yup, good stuff, patient build-up, make the ball do the work and the opposition do the chasing".

(In fairness we haven't shown much capacity for possesson football in recent seasons and I'm not sure that sort of reaction is unique to fans at ER.)

[Mibbes Aye]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

We can't blame the weather, there are thousands of kids who go to footie training in Scotland during the week and then play at the weekend.

We have the young men in large numbers who want to play but unfortunately they have ben let down over the years in the way they are being coached.

Every coach out there whether they are ametuer or pro should be taking a long hard look at themselves and asking the question, do I coach my team to play football the right way or do I coach just to win football matches.

I coach children's football, six to eight-year olds mostly. That's the gateway for kids into organised football and believe it or not, the emphasis is on kids just controlling the ball, passing it and dribbling, with a bit of shooting etc. The way the seven-a-sides is structured, as they progress into it, also promotes getting comfortable with the ball. I appreciate things invariably start to get more competitive as children grow older although I wouldn't underestimate how much the desire to win is a driver for the kids and the youths, as opposed to the coaches - even at Primary 2 age, children generally just want to get on with playing against each other and are desperate to win/score.

I think the reasons that we end up producing players without the technical ability of our European counterparts are complex and some factors have been touched upon in this thread already but there are many others, and it's no one thing, it's a combination - so yes, the weather doesn't help, but neither does the fact that the Premiership has a high profile and tends to be a more high-tempo, end-to-end product and kids repeat what they see. They are only two contributing factors, not even the main ones, amongst many more IMO.

More widely, patience itself seems to be a scarcer and scarcer commodity while our sense of entitlement seems to have grown massively in my lifetime. and I can't help but wonder whether the hard work involved in being disciplined and taking the time to work on the basics, whether as a teacher or a learner, is simply beyond a lot of folk nowadays.......

[Littlest Hobo]

It's not just the passing or retaining the ball that we don't seem to be able to do.

It's the movement off the ball.

We seem to be a nation of ball watchers.

What ever happened to the old art of pass and move.

[Ozyhibby]

As I am a volunteer coach at youth level I thought I would offer my point of view and challenge a few of the myths that I have seen repeated here.
First of all, all kids up to the age of 9 only play 4 a side. If your kid is playing 11 a side it is not sanctioned by the SFA and you should pull them out and get them signed up with a proper club.
From the age of 9-12 they are only allowed to play 7 a side. This is where there is most resistance from boys clubs trying to move them to 11 a side at age 11 but the SFA have become very strict and are winning the argument. Again if your kid is playing 11's then you should remove them and get them to a proper club.
From 13 onwards they move to 11 a side.
The quality of coaching is improving and the SFA should be commended on the work they are doing in making sure all coaches are qualified to a min level 3. The courses are good quality and and reasonably priced.
As far as negative shouting from the sidelines goes, it does happen but a lot of work is being done to stamp it out. It's not helpful but I don't think it is the main reason we are not producing players.
Now if all that is the case then we should be world beaters. Not quite. The biggest problem I can see is that our kids don't play enough. We still run a system where the kids train on a Wednesday and have a game at the weekend. In the old days this worked fine as when we weren't at training we were down the park with our mates playing footy till dark. This no longer happens as we don't let our kids out unsupervised anymore. Those days are not coming back. They have the same problem in every other country in Europe. This difference is in how we have dealt with it. In Spain (about 15 years ago) they trained up thousands of coaches so that youth clubs could offer football three times a week plus a Sunday. This makes a massive difference. This year I have been coaching 5 year olds and from a group of 40 kids there are about 6-8 players who are already technically miles ahead of the rest of the group. Without exception, they are all getting extra football away from us. If it's already made a difference at 5 year old then by the time they're 15 the difference is massive.
The kids need to be playing at least 4 times a week and elite level players should be playing everyday. In France their elit players train at least 2 hours a day from the age of 12.
The SFA have moved this year to replicate this with the introduction of the performance schools ( the Edinburgh one is Broughton high) where the top 12 kids get two hours football a day while at school with fully qualified SFA coaches. There are 7 of these so that means every year we have 84 kids going through this system. We will see the result of this in about 8 years. My feeling is it will be a success.
Sorry for the rant, but get sick hearing about how crap we coaches all are at youth level. Mistakes have been made in the past but mostly we just did not act fast enough to the changes in the way kids play. The work being done by Mark Wotte in training up coaches will pay dividends in the long run.
If your still not convinced then get yourself down and give us a hand, you won't be turned away.

[Greentinted]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

'Cut out the ****ing fancy stuff'.

The war cry of touchline Hitlers running many, not all, of the youth teams in this country.

I walked away fi laddies fitba' (as a coach) for the self same reason. And the parents were just as bad - "If ye cannae get the baw, get the effin man" (At under 10 level. WTF is that about?)

I knew 'coaches' who's charges won cups, leagues etc and these grown men would take the trophies out on the lash and the go home sleep wi them (The trophies). Hundreds of similar stories about failed adults living vicariously on the coaty tails of the success of the youngsters whose talent they were destroying.
(I know not all are like that but too many still are)

[Littlest Hobo]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

As I am a volunteer coach at youth level I thought I would offer my point of view and challenge a few of the myths that I have seen repeated here.
First of all, all kids up to the age of 9 only play 4 a side. If your kid is playing 11 a side it is not sanctioned by the SFA and you should pull them out and get them signed up with a proper club.
From the age of 9-12 they are only allowed to play 7 a side. This is where there is most resistance from boys clubs trying to move them to 11 a side at age 11 but the SFA have become very strict and are winning the argument. Again if your kid is playing 11's then you should remove them and get them to a proper club.
From 13 onwards they move to 11 a side.
The quality of coaching is improving and the SFA should be commended on the work they are doing in making sure all coaches are qualified to a min level 3. The courses are good quality and and reasonably priced.
As far as negative shouting from the sidelines goes, it does happen but a lot of work is being done to stamp it out. It's not helpful but I don't think it is the main reason we are not producing players.
Now if all that is the case then we should be world beaters. Not quite. The biggest problem I can see is that our kids don't play enough. We still run a system where the kids train on a Wednesday and have a game at the weekend. In the old days this worked fine as when we weren't at training we were down the park with our mates playing footy till dark. This no longer happens as we don't let our kids out unsupervised anymore. Those days are not coming back. They have the same problem in every other country in Europe. This difference is in how we have dealt with it. In Spain (about 15 years ago) they trained up thousands of coaches so that youth clubs could offer football three times a week plus a Sunday. This makes a massive difference. This year I have been coaching 5 year olds and from a group of 40 kids there are about 6-8 players who are already technically miles ahead of the rest of the group. Without exception, they are all getting extra football away from us. If it's already made a difference at 5 year old then by the time they're 15 the difference is massive.
The kids need to be playing at least 4 times a week and elite level players should be playing everyday. In France their elit players train at least 2 hours a day from the age of 12.
The SFA have moved this year to replicate this with the introduction of the performance schools ( the Edinburgh one is Broughton high) where the top 12 kids get two hours football a day while at school with fully qualified SFA coaches. There are 7 of these so that means every year we have 84 kids going through this system. We will see the result of this in about 8 years. My feeling is it will be a success.
Sorry for the rant, but get sick hearing about how crap we coaches all are at youth level. Mistakes have been made in the past but mostly we just did not act fast enough to the changes in the way kids play. The work being done by Mark Wotte in training up coaches will pay dividends in the long run.
If your still not convinced then get yourself down and give us a hand, you won't be turned away.

Good post mate, you have restored some of my faith in the future of Scottish football.

I agree about how much time our generation would play and how that doesn't happen anymore.

Watching Spain against Ireland, do the young lads get taught how to hold onto the ball? How to play the ball around, be patient, pass and move, make unselfish runs off the ball?

Do they do those type of exercises?

[Kato]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The SFA have moved this year to replicate this with the introduction of the performance schools ( the Edinburgh one is Broughton high) where the top 12 kids get two hours football a day while at school with fully qualified SFA coaches. There are 7 of these so that means every year we have 84 kids going through this system.

12 kids in Edinburgh and 84 throughout the country?

Does that not strike you as a minute amount?

Don't get me wrong I think the way that course is planned out is the way ahead but the numbers involved strike me as tokenism.

[Ozyhibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

12 kids in Edinburgh and 84 throughout the country?

Does that not strike you as a minute amount?

Don't get me wrong I think the way that course is planned out is the way ahead but the numbers involved strike me as tokenism.

Scotland does not produce 84 new professional footballers each year so I would not say it tokenism but you are correct in that it could be higher and the aim is to double the size of the programme when money allows.

[Kato]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Scotland does not produce 84 new professional footballers each year so I would not say it tokenism but you are correct in that it could be higher and the aim is to double the size of the programme when money allows.

Bottom line for me is the SFA can bring in all the courses, plans and whatever and nothing will improve unless there is a huge investment in facilities. Every country mentioned in this thread has invested in facilities that far out-strip ours. In fact we have Councils who sell playing fields for housing, thus decreasing the facilities even more.

Even with 84 places on that course we still won't produce 84 pro-footballers each year. The fall-rate from these things is naturally high and in Scotland, if you excuse the cynicism, will be naturally even higher.