Messi Vs Pele

[Jack]

As I said on the Ronaldo thread I think Messi has no peers in current times.

In fact I think in the history of football, as I know it, there is only one player who is possibly better - Pele.

But I think its possibly unfair to compare them given the different times they played in.

Youngsters are blessed these days witnessing Messis fantastic skills.

Us older folk are truly blessed having witnessed both.

[CorrieHibs]

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As I said on the Ronaldo thread I think Messi has no peers in current times.

In fact I think in the history of football, as I know it, there is only one player who is possibly better - Pele.

But I think its possibly unfair to compare them given the different times they played in.

Youngsters are blessed these days witnessing Messis fantastic skills.

Us older folk are truly blessed having witnessed both.

Pele never played europe. Its easier turning it on every 4 years at a world cup.

[The_Exile]

What was the standard of opposition like for Pele week in week out? I'd say Spain is the most technical and tactically astute league in the world, so although Messi is up against some dire defences, the good ones far outweight the bad ones in La Liga IMO.

[blackpoolhibs]

Its a difficult one for sure, Pele must have been some player, his record is amazing. I saw him once in Los Angeles at the end of his career.

He was playing for the New York Cosmos, and the only thing he did all game was moan at the ref. It sort of tainted it for me, this is how i remember him now.

Messi just looks the complete player, with the right temperament and seems a decent guy to boot.

There's not many i'd travel to see, but he's the one i would do that for.

He's the best ever imo, a genius.

[TrinityHibs]

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What was the standard of opposition like for Pele week in week out? I'd say Spain is the most technical and tactically astute league in the world, so although Messi is up against some dire defences, the good ones far outweight the bad ones in La Liga IMO.

The other consideration would be how good was the team around him? The current Barcelona team is outstanding althoough you would have to think that Santos were okay as well.

I think Messi and Pele have followed very similar paths in their career. Pele scored 255 goals in his first 5 years at Santos. Messi is projected to score around 250 by the end of this season however that is one meaningful season more. Give Pele another season and he would be around 50 ahead.

Internationals in the first 8 years of their careers - Pele 51 games, 43 goals. Messi 67 games 22 goals. Pele also won a world cup.

I cannot seperate them but Messi is the best player I have ever seen play live and the exhibition they put on against Hibs in the first half at Murrayfield was outstanding

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Pele even managed to score goals whilst he was a P.O.W! He stood out in what was an aging team at the time. :-)

[Haymaker]

Difficult to try and compare two players in vastly different eras.

[sambajustice]

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Pele even managed to score goals whilst he was a P.O.W! He stood out in what was an aging team at the time. :-)

I'd take that teams goalie though. Better than anything we've had at Hibs in recent years!!

[TRC]

Someone said the standard of opposition was poorer in those days, which may have been the case. Messi however plays on pristine pitches every week a ball that is so light compared to the ball they used in those days. So it would be a very close run thing in my opinion Messi to play back then and Pele to play now.

[Keith_M]

During Maradona's playing career, a lot of people said he was better than Pele. IIRC, Pele even stated once that he thought George Best was better than him. I don't think you can really give a definitive answer to these kind of questions. How many people have actually watched them at the top of their careers?

If people say one or the other is the current best player in the world, that's fair enough.


In my humble opinion, here's my view on them and a couple of others:

Pele: Needed Viagra to play keepie-uppie
Best: Waste of a good liver.
Maradona: Total Crackpot.
(The current) Ronaldo: Re-incarnation of "Hellooo-laydeeez" Raoul.

Joe Tortolano:

[The_Exile]

It's a moot point anyway as none of them are/were fit to lace Chic Charnley's boots

[PeeJay]

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Its a difficult one for sure, Pele must have been some player, his record is amazing. I saw him once in Los Angeles at the end of his career.

He was playing for the New York Cosmos, and the only thing he did all game was moan at the ref. It sort of tainted it for me, this is how i remember him now.

Messi just looks the complete player, with the right temperament and seems a decent guy to boot.

Is this no a 'wee bit' unfair - Beckenbauer played for that crummy outfit as well, I don't remember Beckenbauer for that period of his career!

Pele as a youngster in 58 or - my personal fav the 1970 World Cup - they kicked him out of the torunament in England in 66 unfortunately.

It's difficult to compare, not even sure if it is meaningful in any way - they didn't train back then like they do now, they had a different pitch to play on and a heavier ball, less protection against thugs (when Leverkusen lost so heavily to Messi's Barcelona recently many German papers/commentators wondered why Messi wasn't fouled once during the game) - back then he would have faced up to less thoughtful defenders.

How many of us back then saw Pele - unless in the World Cup - we can see Messi almost for every game now ... we missed so much of the greats back then, that's what made them so special when they were on the box.

Having said that I think Messi is at least as good as Pele, but at those heights of the game - it's irrelevant really, surely?

[Scouse Hibee]

I carried out my own experiment using the docs time machine:

Messi was transported back to play against Pele and ran rings around him and everyone else on the pitch, Pele was blowing out of his erse just trying to keep up with Messi in the first fifteen minutes.

Then Pele was transported to play against the current Barca side for Real Madrid, once again he was blowing out of his erse after the first fifteen minutes and looked the worst player on the pitch.


Conclusion; Messi by a country mile!!!



Back in the real world though best of generation is the only true yardstick, too many other factors involved in assessing best ever.

[patlowe]

I personally don't think Messi will be truly considered the best until he really dominates a World Cup and symbolises the success of a nation in the way Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Pele, Maradona and Zidane, maybe even the fat Ronaldo, to name a few, did. Whether that's fair or not, that is the platform on which the greatest are remembered.

[blackpoolhibs]

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Is this no a 'wee bit' unfair - Beckenbauer played for that crummy outfit as well, I don't remember Beckenbauer for that period of his career!

Pele as a youngster in 58 or - my personal fav the 1970 World Cup - they kicked him out of the torunament in England in 66 unfortunately.

It's difficult to compare, not even sure if it is meaningful in any way - they didn't train back then like they do now, they had a different pitch to play on and a heavier ball, less protection against thugs (when Leverkusen lost so heavily to Messi's Barcelona recently many German papers/commentators wondered why Messi wasn't fouled once during the game) - back then he would have faced up to less thoughtful defenders.

How many of us back then saw Pele - unless in the World Cup - we can see Messi almost for every game now ... we missed so much of the greats back then, that's what made them so special when they were on the box.

Having said that I think Messi is at least as good as Pele, but at those heights of the game - it's irrelevant really, surely?

Yip it probably is a bit unfair, his constant whinging to the officials was terrible, and something i just was not expecting.

I have seen the footage we all have, and agree he was a terrific footballer, and did see Maradona a couple of times live and lots on tv, he is always compared as Pele's equal. The debate is always who was best, him or Pele, with one or the other coming out on top depending on who you listen to.

In my opinion, Messi as a player is better than the Argentinian, so using that logic, Messi imo is the best player ever.

[Onion]

Messi is amazing and may well go on to become the greatest ever, but Pele's world cup medals and records make him No1

[Stine]

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I personally don't think Messi will be truly considered the best until he really dominates a World Cup and symbolises the success of a nation in the way Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Pele, Maradona and Zidane, maybe even the fat Ronaldo, to name a few, did. Whether that's fair or not, that is the platform on which the greatest are remembered.

I think that it used to be the platform on which to base opinions but perhaps because it was the only source that viewers got in which to see Pele, Maradona, Cruyff. Likewise, before tv we did not get to see Di Stefano or Puskas. However today we get to see these guys day in day out and as a result i don't think having success in a major championship like the euro's or World Cup is the ultimate decision maker on who is the greatest. Messi played centre mid in the last world cup in a team managed by Maradona. A bit unfair to ask him to win the tournament against arguably the greatest team of all time.

[Rivers Cuomo]

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I'd take that teams goalie though. Better than anything we've had at Hibs in recent years!!

Would put us on a right Rocky road when we need to start opening up some Daylight between us and the Pars

[Bad Martini]

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I carried out my own experiment using the docs time machine:

Messi was transported back to play against Pele and ran rings around him and everyone else on the pitch, Pele was blowing out of his erse just trying to keep up with Messi in the first fifteen minutes.

Then Pele was transported to play against the current Barca side for Real Madrid, once again he was blowing out of his erse after the first fifteen minutes and looked the worst player on the pitch.


Conclusion; Dalglish is better than both!!!



Back in the real world though best of generation is the only true yardstick, too many other factors involved in assessing best ever.

Just fixed your conclusion for you.

DALGLISH....DALGLISH....DALGLISH....
The King. Forever. Endof

[JimBHibees]

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Is this no a 'wee bit' unfair - Beckenbauer played for that crummy outfit as well, I don't remember Beckenbauer for that period of his career!

Pele as a youngster in 58 or - my personal fav the 1970 World Cup - they kicked him out of the torunament in England in 66 unfortunately.

It's difficult to compare, not even sure if it is meaningful in any way - they didn't train back then like they do now, they had a different pitch to play on and a heavier ball, less protection against thugs (when Leverkusen lost so heavily to Messi's Barcelona recently many German papers/commentators wondered why Messi wasn't fouled once during the game) - back then he would have faced up to less thoughtful defenders.

How many of us back then saw Pele - unless in the World Cup - we can see Messi almost for every game now ... we missed so much of the greats back then, that's what made them so special when they were on the box.

Having said that I think Messi is at least as good as Pele, but at those heights of the game - it's irrelevant really, surely?

I think for that reason it is impossible to compare as the level of thuggery in those days was quite incredible to the level of protection that players get nowadays. As you say Pele was kicked out of the 66 World cup primarily by Portugal I think which would not have been able to happen nowadays.

You just need to look back at some of the tackles that players wouldnt even get a telling off for. I can remember watching a re-run of the Chelsea Leeds cup final and some of the tackles were absolutely incredible and would have been straight red cards for sure.

Both were and are amazing footballers and there is also a quality and dignity about both of them which is great to see.

[Sean1875]

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I personally don't think Messi will be truly considered the best until he really dominates a World Cup and symbolises the success of a nation in the way Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Pele, Maradona and Zidane, maybe even the fat Ronaldo, to name a few, did. Whether that's fair or not, that is the platform on which the greatest are remembered.

Messi is currently surrounded by (IMO) the best club squad ever assembled and as of yet hasnt REALLY shone that bright with Argentina, the next World Cup will be huge in determining whether he can really be considered the best of all time.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Pele even managed to score goals whilst he was a P.O.W! He stood out in what was an aging team at the time. :-)

To put it in context. Pele was playing football in a POW camp, while Hearts were storming the beaches of Iwo Jima. Not so big now, is he?

[Dashing Bob S]

A bit disappointed that Jimmy Scott hasn't come into this conversation yet.

[Skanko79]

In my opinion of the greatest ever debate its easily between messi and maradonna, with maradonna just shading it so far. although, the way messi is going, come the end of his career he could easily be the greatest ever.

Although pele was different class he never really tested himself on a weekly basis against world class opposition.

[Kato]

Millions of Brazilians (of a certain age) will tell you that Garrincha was the best player ever. A contempoary of Pele he was a far bigger star there than him.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/qx1jfndUXqk

http://www.youtube.com/embed/ehw6wuuZ6xY

His biography, translated by Hibby Andrew Downie who slips in a few mentions of the Mental Hibees in the foreword, is the best football book I've ever read. Incredible story. The descriptions of the scences on the day of his funeral (some of which you can see at the end of the second video above) are outstanding.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Garrincha-Tr.../dp/0224064339

[ancient hibee]

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Messi is currently surrounded by (IMO) the best club squad ever assembled and as of yet hasnt REALLY shone that bright with Argentina, the next World Cup will be huge in determining whether he can really be considered the best of all time.

And yet they're not going to win the Spanish league.

[Green Cabbage 7]

well think messi is the best of his generation know an italian from naples and well in italy maradona is the best player ever as fire pele never seen him play watch some highlights and he look fantastic but if speak to the people that have seen them all most say pele one thing you could say pele proved it in the league were he played and at world cups messi has not maybe at a weaker side but would think argentina are a good side as for the pele never came to europe argument does anybody know how good brazilian football was back then and maybe the money on offer was not as good to consider leaving home and on another note used to meet this old boy on the bus and to him no one compared to one of our legend s I think you all know who that is!

[blackpoolhibs]

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well think messi is the best of his generation know an italian from naples and well in italy maradona is the best player ever as fire pele never seen him play watch some highlights and he look fantastic but if speak to the people that have seen them all most say pele one thing you could say pele proved it in the league were he played and at world cups messi has not maybe at a weaker side but would think argentina are a good side as for the pele never came to europe argument does anybody know how good brazilian football was back then and maybe the money on offer was not as good to consider leaving home and on another note used to meet this old boy on the bus and to him no one compared to one of our legend s I think you all know who that is!

No, and personally i'm not even sure what the rest of your post is either?

[Scouse Hibee]

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well think messi is the best of his generation know an italian from naples and well in italy maradona is the best player ever as fire pele never seen him play watch some highlights and he look fantastic but if speak to the people that have seen them all most say pele one thing you could say pele proved it in the league were he played and at world cups messi has not maybe at a weaker side but would think argentina are a good side as for the pele never came to europe argument does anybody know how good brazilian football was back then and maybe the money on offer was not as good to consider leaving home and on another note used to meet this old boy on the bus and to him no one compared to one of our legend s I think you all know who that is!

And breath.

[calumhibee1]

Messi is the best ever IMO. People say he needs to do it at a world cup to be considered the best, but international football is not what it used to be, so I wouldn't say it's as relevant as some people make out. Pele also never played in Europe, so never played at the top level of club football. Also the argument about players not training back then like they do now may be true, however that doesn't take away from the fact that Messi IMO is a better player, Pele may have been even better had he been playing now with all the new training methods and footballs, perfect pitches etc. but he wasn't.