...had we been cheating like Hearts and Rangers, or just living beyond our means?
Results 1 to 30 of 34
Thread: When Hibs were £20m in debt...
-
16-03-2012 10:41 AM #1
When Hibs were £17.2m in debt...
Last edited by Hibbyradge; 16-03-2012 at 11:00 AM.
-
16-03-2012 10:43 AM #2This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
-
-
16-03-2012 10:44 AM #4This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
You asked the question, what do you think?
Minor point I suppose but I don't think the debt was ever that high.
Hibs paid all their taxes and paid off every penny of debt. How can that be classed as cheating?
-
16-03-2012 10:44 AM #5This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
-
16-03-2012 10:44 AM #6This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
-
16-03-2012 10:46 AM #7This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
However, Radge has a point. In the First Division, we spent way more than we were taking in. The justification for that was, of course, that it was investment to ensure we got back to the SPL in one season.
The question, though, is ... when does "speculate to accumulate" become "living beyond our means"?
My own view is that... if you can't afford to pay your taxes, and can't even afford to set up a repayment plan, then you are cheating the State at the very least. That, for me, is when it becomes immoral.
-
16-03-2012 10:48 AM #8This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
When you can't pay it back, start paying your players late, avoid paying taxes and/or go into administration?
-
16-03-2012 10:48 AM #9This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
-
16-03-2012 10:50 AM #10
I'm liking this thread.
Radge asked the question, maybe playing Devil's Advocate, but it's a fair one.
I like the fact that we have faced up to it and, thus far, been able to justify our own situation.
Conscience satisfied, let's carry on putting the boot into the Huns and Hertz.
-
16-03-2012 10:54 AM #11
I'm not sure our debt did reach as high as £20m, but it was £14.5m in 2003, which was after the sales of Ulrik Laursen to Celtic and Ulises de la Cruz to Aston Villa for whom we received £2.7m, iirc.
-
-
16-03-2012 10:56 AM #13
Depends who it's owed to. If an investor wants to run the club at a massive loss and is willing and able to finance it, fair enough. A fair chunk of Rangers spending appears to have been funded by the state directly (not paying their PAYE or VAT this season) or indirectly (by avoiding taxes through the EBTs).
Hibs debt was all owed either to the bank (secured on the ground) or soft loans by Farmer.Last edited by Part/Time Supporter; 16-03-2012 at 11:01 AM.
-
16-03-2012 10:56 AM #14
It was just before my time really, I was quite young when this was going on so may be a bit off with the fact.
IMO, we were living beyond our means (whether Hibs as the business or Hibs as part of the business) which isn't desirable but not illegal. The non payment of staff and using HMRC as a funding tool however is. If we did any of that then yes.
If either Rangers or Hearts take 20 years to get themselves back in reasonably healthy state, forced to sell off player after player, asset after asset then I will have no complaints. Luckily we had someone who came in, saved the club, ran it properly whilst maintaining a reasonable level of on field performance. We didn't get to start from scratch as a NewCo, but did it the hard way. Hope those two clubs have to do the same thing.
-
16-03-2012 10:56 AM #15This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
I wouldn't like to see us try to trade our way out of that level of debt now.
-
-
16-03-2012 10:59 AM #17This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
-
16-03-2012 11:00 AM #18This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
-
16-03-2012 11:01 AM #19This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
The debt (which peaked at £18m IIRC) was mainly due to the building of 3 new stands, the loss making season in the 1st division and player contracts which were signed prior to the collapse of the Sky TV deal.
However Hibs always had the saleable asset of the former car park and were the first SPL club (by 2-3 years) to review their wage budget in accordance with reduced TV revenue. Other clubs (notably Livi, Motherwell, Dundee, Dunfermline, the yams and the huns it would now appear) continued to chase the dream and ended up in the keech.
Hibs financial conduct was more or less irreproachable, though thankfully we had STF to lean on and not just the banks.
-
16-03-2012 11:03 AM #20
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Posts
- 3,095
This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
I'm also generally uncomfortable with football clubs being run on the tick, and I'd rather there were rules in place to prevent it. However, as others have pointed out, we did pay our dues. When it became clear that our spending was unsustainable, we went through a period of savage cuts. Rangers are trying to bail on their debts, by trying to ditch commitments through administration, and asking players to play on hugely reduced wages (compared to the contracts they were lured with). In Hearts' case, it's hard to see how they can trade their way out of their debt situation, because of the figures involved. They don't have assets equal to the enormity of their debt.
-
16-03-2012 11:16 AM #21
The main reason a lot of clubs did it was because they felt they had no choice, which had a domino effect on other clubs.
FWIW, I'd be very happy if new rules were brought in to stop ALL clubs living outwith their means. Added to that additional rules dealing with the likes of Hearts and Rangers financial chicanery
e.g. A rolling period of three years in which clubs have to have paid no more than 60% of income as wages.
Immediate punishments for the following, with the punishments already set out in the statute books in clear language and non negotiable.
- Not paying taxes
- Paying players late on a regular basis (e.g. 3 months in a row or more than 6 times in two seasons) with no need for complaints from the players.
- Failure to pay bills in a timely manner (which, to me, surely brings the game into disrepute)
- Playing in Maroon
OK, maybe the last one is a bit much, but you get the idea.
-
16-03-2012 11:24 AM #22
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Posts
- 3,095
This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
-
16-03-2012 11:33 AM #23This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats
1. To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
2. To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
3. To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
4. To elude; escape: cheat death.
v.intr.
1. To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
3. Informal To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.
4. Baseball To position oneself closer to a certain area than is normal or expected: The shortstop cheated toward second base.
Based on the above, we cheated nobody. You can argue that we were living outwith our means though history will show we never had HMRC at our door, we always paid players (arguably too well) and we never broke the SPL rules.
We, the fans, were somewhat cheated insofar as we paid players who didnt turn up at times and indeed, to call themselves fitba players was an extension of reality but that is down to interpretation...
Bottom line; we didnt spend many millions more than we had with an aim to win the Scottish CUp or Champions League as a means to balance the books. We didnt bring in players clearly well outwith our budget (or not stupidly so) and we didnt ever cause anyone else financial hardship due to our own stupidity with regards financial dealings, save for the fans who paid for sub-standard "fitba" as I said above.
We cheated nobody. We were somewhat victim to circumstance too...we didnt know the Sky deal would collapse and we didnt know our overpaid (yet ultimately better than their performance) players would relegate us costing us a fortune.
Rangers - where to start? They "allegedly"...hid monies, paid no taxes, had dual contracts, bought way more than they bring in to "win" (and still failed)....bad business model.
Hearts - I havent got enough energy to list their financial iregularities though would say they look like they wont be paying their players again...(dictionary definition of solvency helps their plight)
We are many things. We have had our own problems in the past. We arent, however, financial cheats...theres many things I dont like about Petrie and his pals (MANY things). One thing you would never have them over is financial prudence...
Cheating *******s we arent unlike the bams over the road and the unwashed.
ENDOF
-
16-03-2012 11:35 AM #24This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
As usual BM, 100% Spot on
-
16-03-2012 12:28 PM #25This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Seconded. An excellent summary of events
-
16-03-2012 04:07 PM #26This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
The debts for Rangers and Hearts are all short term and much more damaging.
You should not compare the two. It's rather like comparing someone with a £150,000 25-year mortgage with someone else with a £150,000 bank overdraft.
The other issue is that Hibs took action to correct the problem of the short term portion of the debt and even considered selling Easter Road.
-
17-03-2012 12:05 AM #27
???????????????
This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
We also need to think that the season in the 1st Division was a little unusual....season tickets were kept at the same price as the relegation year and after a few games crowds were very high at home due to the football. I know we had some high earners ..Le God & Latapy, Mixu, Rougier....but we also had a core of players who were Scottish, Crawford, Lavety, McGinlay, Renwick, Hartley etc or from English Lower Leagues...Skinner, Lovell etc.....so from paying vast sums i dont think it was the case. I would say that as the season went on Alex Mc knew he could improve the squad. We also got rid of some high earners and also the dross.
So there is a clear difference......if we had not gone up there would have been a real change and most of the top guys would have gone ( Dougie Cromb told me personally that some players had get out clauses if we did not get promotion...but the same players had another clause on improved terms if we got up...with a very good bonus
we lived within our means...made a loss but nothing drastic!
not like the Tin Rattlers ( can you spare a dime!) from the dark side.
-
17-03-2012 05:28 AM #28This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote"We know the people who have invested so far are simple fans." Vladimir Romanov - Scotsman 10th December 2012
"Romanov was like a breath of fresh air - laced with cyanide." Me.
-
17-03-2012 08:26 AM #29
Excellent replies.
Everyone should now be fully armed when/if they hear any such nonsense from any merricks they may have the misfortune to encounter, (as happened to me).
-
17-03-2012 10:25 AM #30This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Do you think I'm a Consultant?
Log in to remove the advert |
Bookmarks