Rangers demise and the opportunities it presents

[Ozyhibby]

Sometime in the near future it is likely that Rangers FC will cease to be and a new Rangers will bid to re-enter the SPL. This will open up opportunities for the other ten clubs in the SPL to restructure the league in ways that would be good for all of Scottish football. My wish list would include:-

1. A salary cap. Set at about £5m per season this would ensure a much fairer league with all 12 teams capable of winning. At this level nobody outside the old firm and Hearts(I suspect they would see £5m as to high as of next season) would see a drop in the standard of players they could sign. It's a win win for all other teams.
2. TV revenue to be split amongst all clubs equally.
3. The new Rangers must set aside £5m per season for ten years towards youth development at the SFA. This is a must otherwise they will be entering the league debt free after cheating the tax payer and all the other SPL clubs over the last ten years.
This is a one time opportunity that the clubs have to change the game for the better and we should be lobbying Hibs now in order to make sure they act in the fans best interests.

[soupy]

The only problem there is how are the Yams supposed to win the champions league whilst being held back by a wage cap :-)

[CallumLaidlaw]

Why would they be allowed to re-enter the SPL? They can start in the 3rd.

BUT, I like your suggestions. Especially the first 2.

[Ozyhibby]

They probably will have to start at the bottom but there is no reason the clubs can't press on with the reforms as without Rangers in the league the old firm don't have their two blocking votes.

[Sir David Gray]

Anyone who believes that Rangers FC will ever be allowed to 'die' is going to be sorely disappointed.

There is absolutely no way that the authorities will ever allow this to happen.

[HibeeSince85]

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Anyone who believes that Rangers FC will ever be allowed to 'die' is going to be sorely disappointed.

There is absolutely no way that the authorities will ever allow this to happen.

I'm not as sure as you on that!

[blackpoolhibs]

I mentioned this on another thread, if they go pop, they will get back somehow, i think we all know that.

Where we can win here is smashing the 11-1 voting scandal. We could if all the clubs apart from the smellies wanted, make this a much fairer league.

Equal shares of everything the league earns, we could really make this league work better. I wonder if those clubs bar the smellies have the balls?

[Dibben]

Surely of they go into liquidation, the assets, ie Ibrox, would get sold to pay off the debt? Suppose Rangers2012 fc could share Firhill!

[Ozyhibby]

I'm not saying they will die. Their massive fan base will ensure they will be reborn.
Which authorities do you think will be able to stop their liquidation? The SFA?
Given that there is no public money available I doubt the govt could get involved.
It's the fact that they will have to be reformed under a new company that presents the opportunity.

[--------]

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Sometime in the near future it is likely that Rangers FC will cease to be and a new Rangers will bid to re-enter the SPL. This will open up opportunities for the other ten clubs in the SPL to restructure the league in ways that would be good for all of Scottish football. My wish list would include:-

1. A salary cap. Set at about £5m per season this would ensure a much fairer league with all 12 teams capable of winning. At this level nobody outside the old firm and Hearts(I suspect they would see £5m as to high as of next season) would see a drop in the standard of players they could sign. It's a win win for all other teams.
2. TV revenue to be split amongst all clubs equally.
3. The new Rangers must set aside £5m per season for ten years towards youth development at the SFA. This is a must otherwise they will be entering the league debt free after cheating the tax payer and all the other SPL clubs over the last ten years.
This is a one time opportunity that the clubs have to change the game for the better and we should be lobbying Hibs now in order to make sure they act in the fans best interests.

Lotta wishful thinking there, buddy. Some folks have been predicting the demise of HoMFC for about seven years now - they're still here. Why do you think Rangers are going to fold any more quickly? What makes you think the Scottish football authorities won't bend over backwards to see them OK?

Tell you now - it isn't going to happen.

[greenlex]

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Lotta wishful thinking there, buddy. Some folks have been predicting the demise of HoMFC for about seven years now - they're still here. Why do you think Rangers are going to fold any more quickly? What makes you think the Scottish football authorities won't bend over backwards to see them OK?

Tell you now - it isn't going to happen.

A much bigger tax bill could see to that Doddie.
I know a company that went bust just before Christmas over a bill payable to the Pensions Protection fund. They offered to square it up over a number of years (5 springs to mind). The answer was no payable now.. The company was well over 100 years old and had been taken over by new owners 6 or 7 years previous who thought (and had been legally advised wrongly)the liability was nothing to do with them. They are no more.

[Ozyhibby]

Bigger companies than Rangers go out of business everyday. To prevent them going out of business is going to require someone taking on £90m of debt. I don't think there is anyone out there willing and able to do that.

[TheEastTerrace]

A thought passed my mind whilst reading The Times' story about HR and MM's acquittal yesterday. HMRC's reputation continues to go from bad to worse and this high profile case hasn't done them any favours - what better way to show who's boss by taking down the establishment club in Scotland for £49m in back-dated tax and penalties?

[Gmack7]

its prob different circumstances but dundee have been in admin twice and only got an increased points deduction from 10/15 to 25 the 2nd time,there was no automatic relegation with them or motherwell,will roughly the same penalties not be handed down to rangers or hearts for that matter?
and can someone explain why livi were treated differently to dundee

[heartbreaker]

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Anyone who believes that Rangers FC will ever be allowed to 'die' is going to be sorely disappointed.

There is absolutely no way that the authorities will ever allow this to happen.

Correct. I loathe Rangers but the objective reality is that they are by a distance the best supported club in Scotland..it wouldn't suprpise me if over 30% of Scots were Rangers fans. They are a hugely important social and cultural part of the national life.....loathsome and shameful but a central reality in Scottish life and they are going nowhere. They will struggle but will continue.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Lotta wishful thinking there, buddy. Some folks have been predicting the demise of HoMFC for about seven years now - they're still here. Why do you think Rangers are going to fold any more quickly? What makes you think the Scottish football authorities won't bend over backwards to see them OK?

Tell you now - it isn't going to happen.

Hearts are entirely dependent on Vlad. He pulls the plug, they're ******, he doesn't, they're not. The Huns are in an entirely different position. They have already been up for sale once and with the tax bill looming the only guy they could find willing to take them on was a "turnaround specialist" who did so by mortgaging their future ST money. Whyte knows all about administration, liquidation, asset stripping, prepacks, the whole lot. He's been there, seen it, done it etc.

If the tax bill is anywhere near the higher end, the Huns as presently constituted are ******. They'll come back, of course, like Leeds, but us and the rest of the SPL can make the road long and hard for them.

[JeMeSouviens]

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its prob different circumstances but dundee have been in admin twice and only got an increased points deduction from 10/15 to 25 the 2nd time,there was no automatic relegation with them or motherwell,will roughly the same penalties not be handed down to rangers or hearts for that matter?
and can someone explain why livi were treated differently to dundee

Dundee got out of admin by agreeing a 6p in the £ deal with their creditors. To do this, 75% of your creditors by debt value have to agree. In the Hun case, they will not be able to get anywhere near 75% without HMRC. HMRC voted against deals at Dundee and Portsmouth, they're after the full £.

Livi were treated differently because having dropped into the SFL, they couldn't guarantee to fulfil a season of fixtures in Div 1.

[Kaiser1962]

If the case goes against them Rangers will enter administration. Their assetts are out of the creditor's reach and they will broker a deal which will allow them to exit administration, relatively unscathed.

This is, IMO, an abuse of the administration laws in that part of their plan is to use the legislation as a means of avoiding their responsibilities.


The Yams owners and by far the biggest creditor are one and the same, to all intents and purposes, which makes their situation somewhat different from that of Rangers.

[Sir David Gray]

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its prob different circumstances but dundee have been in admin twice and only got an increased points deduction from 10/15 to 25 the 2nd time,there was no automatic relegation with them or motherwell,will roughly the same penalties not be handed down to rangers or hearts for that matter?
and can someone explain why livi were treated differently to dundee

There were doubts that Livingston were going to be able to fulfil their league fixtures that season, which is why that course of action was taken against them.

[GreenCastle]

Few interesting points -

Rangers will continue to get weaker - Hearts are getting weaker slowly also - this would be a great time for a club like Hibs who seem to be very well run to capitalise and make a challenge - if the board / STF could see this then the rewards would be massive - Hearts have proved before it can be done - just don't let a mad man do it (sacking Burley when undefeated etc). Hibs have the infrastructure to compete - obviously we must stay up this season.

Rangers do have serious money problems - is there not a rule stopping you take part in Europe if your finances are really struggling ? I am sure it was introduced recently ?

The SPL is struggling - I have talked about it many times on here - something needs to be done. The 11-1 needs to be changed - that is ridiculous.

Teams need to grow some and maybe take a small hit short term but for the league to prosper long term. The distribution of money needs to be more fair - the issue is though did the SPL not sign a new T.V deal recently for the next few years?

I think the salary cap idea is good and something I would be in favour of - the issue as mentioned is how do clubs then compete in Europe where the top leagues don't have one ? This has caused Rangers problems as they tried to keep up with many English teams and are struggling now but the bottom line is the league needs become more competitive to bring fans back into the grounds and get more sponsors involved.

[Hibernia Na Eir]

does anyone HONESTLY think that the hierarchies will demote RFC?!!!!!!

I seriously doubt it.

They'll get all the help and attention they'd ever need.

[Kaiser1962]

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Few interesting points -

Rangers will continue to get weaker - Hearts are getting weaker slowly also - this would be a great time for a club like Hibs who seem to be very well run to capitalise and make a challenge - if the board / STF could see this then the rewards would be massive - Hearts have proved before it can be done - just don't let a mad man do it (sacking Burley when undefeated etc). Hibs have the infrastructure to compete - obviously we must stay up this season.

How would the rewards be massive? What do you believe they would be?

[GreenCastle]

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How would the rewards be massive? What do you believe they would be?

First the 10,000 empty seats at ER would have people in them - add in extra money through food / merchandise / corporate / sponsorship etc.

A decent team/winning would get people down to ER.

Whether you got into the Europa League or Champions League the money generated again would be much more than the club are bringing it right now.

Europa League money isn't huge but it's still a decent amount - especially if in group stages.

Champions League is where the real money obviously is - if teams from Cyprus can make it in and do well there is hope for Hibs.

[Kaiser1962]

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First the 10,000 empty seats at ER would have people in them - add in extra money through food / merchandise / corporate / sponsorship etc.

A decent team/winning would get people down to ER.

Whether you got into the Europa League or Champions League the money generated again would be much more than the club are bringing it right now.

Europa League money isn't huge but it's still a decent amount - especially if in group stages.

Champions League is where the real money obviously is - if teams from Cyprus can make it in and do well there is hope for Hibs.

The reality is Hibs will not get crowds anywhere near what you are predicting. Nice thought though.

[greenlex]

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The reality is Hibs will not get crowds anywhere near what you are predicting. Nice thought though.

Maybe not Kaiser but that should be the goal otherwise the investment in the stadium is a complete waste of resource.
With Rangers out the picture for a few seasons and Hearts much weakened or out the picture too we should be trying to capitalise on that. Celtic might just get complacent/bored and lose their edge.

Maybe just maybe.

[Kaiser1962]

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Maybe not Kaiser but that should be the goal otherwise the investment in the stadium is a complete waste of resource.
With Rangers out the picture for a few seasons and Hearts much weakened or out the picture too we should be trying to capitalise on that. Celtic might just get complacent/bored and lose their edge.

Maybe just maybe.

No arguments there.

I do not think Rangers are going anywhere, however.

[GreenCastle]

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The reality is Hibs will not get crowds anywhere near what you are predicting. Nice thought though.

How do you know ?

Won't happen over night but the fan base is there - the product on the pitch isn't / hasn't been there for a while.

Like Greenlex said what is the point of having a 21,000 seater stadium ? So each fan can get 2 seats each ?

Rangers aren't going to hit the wall like all of us we like but they are becoming weaker and the quality of player at Ibrox poorer - everyone can see that.

When Hearts went for 2nd - it was when the Old Firm were both strong and still paying high wages.

This would be a prime time to go for it and try get 2nd - that's next season if still in the SPL.

[heartbreaker]

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How do you know ?

Won't happen over night but the fan base is there - the product on the pitch isn't / hasn't been there for a while.

Like Greenlex said what is the point of having a 21,000 seater stadium ? So each fan can get 2 seats each ?

Rangers aren't going to hit the wall like all of us we like but they are becoming weaker and the quality of player at Ibrox poorer - everyone can see that.

When Hearts went for 2nd - it was when the Old Firm were both strong and still paying high wages.

This would be a prime time to go for it and try get 2nd - that's next season if still in the SPL.

I'm all for ambition but do not be too sure that "the fanbase is there" to actually fill those 10,000 seats with any regularity.

This club has not really drawn fans in "big club" numbers since the Famous Five era. 1957/58 when we still had the likes of Eddie Turnbull and Willie Ormond on the park and reached the Cup Final was the last time we averaged over 20,000 in the league at ER. That is 55 years ago. Only once, in '72-'73, did the Tornadoes attract a home average of more than 15,000. The reality is we had a lot of empty seats in our end in the Hampden semi V Hearts some years ago.

Saying the fanbase is there is one thing. Enthusing 20,000 Hibbies to go to games is another thing entirely. I hope you are right but the evidence says we really struggle to improve attendance.

[jgl07]

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Correct. I loathe Rangers but the objective reality is that they are by a distance the best supported club in Scotland..it wouldn't suprpise me if over 30% of Scots were Rangers fans. They are a hugely important social and cultural part of the national life.....loathsome and shameful but a central reality in Scottish life and they are going nowhere. They will struggle but will continue.

Not true.

Celtic have drawn bigger crowds than Rangers since the redevelopment of Parkhead.

[heartbreaker]

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Not true.

Celtic have drawn bigger crowds than Rangers since the redevelopment of Parkhead.

Only because Parkhead seats more people mate. Historically Rangers have outdrawn Celtic for more often than not. In 1967/68 the European Cup holding Celtic were actually outdrawn by Rangers believe it or not. In the 52 seasons between the end of WW2 and the Parkhead redevelopnment in 1998 Rangers outdrew Celtic 39 times to 13 and pre war more or less always did.

As I say I despise Rangers but they definitely have more armchair/barstool fans than Celtic in Scotland. You don't see it so much here where there are two big clubs cutting down the OF appeal but go out to the small towns without SPL clubs.......full of barstool huns.