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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    Umm, riiiiiiight.

    Meanwhile back on subject, you appear very close to the SNP leadership so can you clarify the answer to the question I asked: What's the ethics code at work here?
    There are manifestly none. All politicians are corrupt, few have been as stupid as Salmond to show themselves up as corrupt on such a petty issue as Hearts. That he has, I'd call his judgement into question and I'd also say is gives a lot if ammunition to unionists that an independent Scotland would be driven by pathetic toytown sectional issues like football team preference.


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  3. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Dashing Bob S View Post
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    There are manifestly none. All politicians are corrupt, few have been as stupid as Salmond to show themselves up as corrupt on such a petty issue as Hearts. That he has, I'd call his judgement into question and I'd also say is gives a lot if ammunition to unionists that an independent Scotland would be driven by pathetic toytown sectional issues like football team preference.
    Have a strong word with yourself, Bob for posting that nonsense!

    Every minister of state at Westminster and Holyrood receive petitions and visits from vested interests of all sorts, from business corporations to charitable organisations every day of the week. The revolving doors at Holyrood will see a non-stop parade of such today and every day of the week. No minister of state is corrupt in having a listening ear. It's how causes get raised and how some legislation is amended or even brought forward for enactment. It's called lobbying.

    And it happens in companies/corporations every day as well, where political structures are oiled every hour of every day.

    If the FM had raised the issue of Hibs needing new investment, this board would be singing his praises. But because he is a well-known Jambo and has allegedly raised the name of Hearts, he gets villified.

    Childish does not even begin to describe this attitude.

  4. #183
    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simply the best View Post
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    Sorry I will re word the question M'laud

    Do you think it is appropriate for Scotland's First Minister to use Scotland's business contacts in an attempt to flog a debt ridden poorly run business that is owned by a Russian millionaire who has mismanged his company for years. This gentleman has an established record of not paying staff, tax bills and other small Scottish businesses on time and generally appears to have a do not care attitude towards Scotland. Or would his attempted intervention be regarded as ethically incorrect.

    P.S. I understand the wee eck may have a soft spot for this mismanaged business.
    So will I!

    Do you think it is appropriate for a Peer of the Realm to ask Scotland's First Minister to use Scotland's business contacts in an attempt to …

    Surely Lord Foulkes wouldn’t ask the First Minister to do something, in writing, knowing it was unethical or inappropriate?
    Space to let

  5. #184
    @hibs.net private member One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancienthibby View Post
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    Have a strong word with yourself, Bob for posting that nonsense!

    Every minister of state at Westminster and Holyrood receive petitions and visits from vested interests of all sorts, from business corporations to charitable organisations every day of the week. The revolving doors at Holyrood will see a non-stop parade of such today and every day of the week. No minister of state is corrupt in having a listening ear. It's how causes get raised and how some legislation is amended or even brought forward for enactment. It's called lobbying.

    And it happens in companies/corporations every day as well, where political structures are oiled every hour of every day.

    If the FM had raised the issue of Hibs needing new investment, this board would be singing his praises. But because he is a well-known Jambo and has allegedly raised the name of Hearts, he gets villified.

    Childish does not even begin to describe this attitude.

    Oh dear. Embarrassing and cringeworthy.

    Being lobbied by outside commercial interests is one thing, going and then acting on their behalf is quite another. No-one is criticising a Minister for "having a listening ear" in this instance, it is what he then did with his mouth, the information and his public office afterward that is the problem.

    The best thing to do when a politician screws up either by accident or design (particularly a Minister) is to own up, say sorry and move on. Wriggling and squirming to try and make the indefensible defensible has only one effect - to make crystal clear that your politician is exactly the same as all other politicians and that there is something to hide.

    The convoluted and unconvincing arguments as to why it is perfectly fine for someone who is the First Minister for all of Scotland to use his public office and time to advance the case for one particular football club (which he just happens to support) is simply digging a bigger hole for him.

  6. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    So will I!

    Do you think it is appropriate for a Peer of the Realm to ask Scotland's First Minister to use Scotland's business contacts in an attempt to …

    Surely Lord Foulkes wouldn’t ask the First Minister to do something, in writing, knowing it was unethical or inappropriate?
    I forgot Foulkes is so clever he would never make that mistake. Private docs are never leaked, and like they really care about what the public think other than what the opion poll is saying this week.

  7. #186
    @hibs.net private member allmodcons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    Oh dear. Embarrassing and cringeworthy.

    Being lobbied by outside commercial interests is one thing, going and then acting on their behalf is quite another. No-one is criticising a Minister for "having a listening ear" in this instance, it is what he then did with his mouth, the information and his public office afterward that is the problem.

    The best thing to do when a politician screws up either by accident or design (particularly a Minister) is to own up, say sorry and move on. Wriggling and squirming to try and make the indefensible defensible has only one effect - to make crystal clear that your politician is exactly the same as all other politicians and that there is something to hide.

    The convoluted and unconvincing arguments as to why it is perfectly fine for someone who is the First Minister for all of Scotland to use his public office and time to advance the case for one particular football club (which he just happens to support) is simply digging a bigger hole for him.
    What did he do with his mouth ODS. You have no idea do you? I doubt anybody other than the FM knows what was said (or not said).
    Your agenda (as always) is to try and stir things up. This is a complete non story and you know it. If there had been any sniff of wrongdoing,
    let alone corruption, by the FM don't you think this would be a headline news story by now? Instead the only place it is generating any interest
    is on Hibs.net and why, nothing to do with corruption or abuse of power, purely and simply because the FM is a Jambo.

    If you are seriously suggesting that the FM is 'wriggling and squirming' over this (non) story and should make some kind of public apology then
    you really have some nerve claiming another poster's comments are 'embarrassing and cringeworthy'?

  8. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    So will I!

    Do you think it is appropriate for a Peer of the Realm to ask Scotland's First Minister to use Scotland's business contacts in an attempt to …

    Surely Lord Foulkes wouldn’t ask the First Minister to do something, in writing, knowing it was unethical or inappropriate?
    so are you saying Salmond has the same moral standards as Lord Foulkes? Got Scotlands safe in his hands then

  9. #188
    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky View Post
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    so are you saying Salmond has the same moral standards as Lord Foulkes? Got Scotlands safe in his hands then
    All I'm saying is that a Unionist asked a Separatist both of whom should know the rules, ethics, standards, protocol, call it what you will around such a request.

    It now seems to be an international incident the likes of which the Peoples Republic of Leith has never seen before in its long and distinguished history.

    One in particular will be trying to curry flavour with the yams supporters given his previous central role in attracting their current owner, leading to their current perilous predicament.

    If, there is any detriment to Scottish international standing and I seriously can't believe it will be the case, then what fault there is would fall on both sides of the independence debate.
    Space to let

  10. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    Oh dear. Embarrassing and cringeworthy.

    Being lobbied by outside commercial interests is one thing, going and then acting on their behalf is quite another. No-one is criticising a Minister for "having a listening ear" in this instance, it is what he then did with his mouth, the information and his public office afterward that is the problem.

    The best thing to do when a politician screws up either by accident or design (particularly a Minister) is to own up, say sorry and move on. Wriggling and squirming to try and make the indefensible defensible has only one effect - to make crystal clear that your politician is exactly the same as all other politicians and that there is something to hide.

    The convoluted and unconvincing arguments as to why it is perfectly fine for someone who is the First Minister for all of Scotland to use his public office and time to advance the case for one particular football club (which he just happens to support) is simply digging a bigger hole for him.
    ODS,

    Thank you, thank you thank you!!!

    After all these years of trying I've made it to the big leagues!

    I have been vilified on a public forum by a Labour Party apparatchik!!

    One complaint, though ODS, could you not have tried to add 'patronising' to your set of accusations?

    Here's a word for you - get out more.

    Spending 18 hours a day in the second basement of Labour Party HQ trolling public debate forums looking for Nat-bashing opportunities has clearly completely distorted your sense of proportion.

    As another poster rightly observed this whole thread is predicated on stirring up a storm in a teacup. Your own attempts to create a mountain out of a molehill is precisely what's embarrassing and cringeworthy.

    You should instead be congratulating the FM for for showing grace in responsibly discharging the duties of his office in taking on the request of a political opponent and making a modest inquiry of his hosts while enjoying complete success to the nation's benefit in all the key objectives of his visit.

  11. #190
    @hibs.net private member One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancienthibby View Post
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    ODS,

    Thank you, thank you thank you!!!

    After all these years of trying I've made it to the big leagues!

    I have been vilified on a public forum by a Labour Party apparatchik!!

    One complaint, though ODS, could you not have tried to add 'patronising' to your set of accusations?

    Here's a word for you - get out more.

    Spending 18 hours a day in the second basement of Labour Party HQ trolling public debate forums looking for Nat-bashing opportunities has clearly completely distorted your sense of proportion.

    As another poster rightly observed this whole thread is predicated on stirring up a storm in a teacup. Your own attempts to create a mountain out of a molehill is precisely what's embarrassing and cringeworthy.

    You should instead be congratulating the FM for for showing grace in responsibly discharging the duties of his office in taking on the request of a political opponent and making a modest inquiry of his hosts while enjoying complete success to the nation's benefit in all the key objectives of his visit.

    Presumably if he'd been successful and the Qataris had arrived with suitcases full of cash to bail Hearts out you would have been on the tarmac waiting for the plane and weeping with gratitude? A bit like the scenes when, er, Romanov arrived in Gorgie....

  12. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    Presumably if he'd been successful and the Qataris had arrived with suitcases full of cash to bail Hearts out you would have been on the tarmac waiting for the plane and weeping with gratitude? A bit like the scenes when, er, Romanov arrived in Gorgie....

    How 19th century of you, but, er, no.

  13. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by simply the best View Post
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    Sorry I will re word the question M'laud

    Do you think it is appropriate for Scotland's First Minister to use Scotland's business contacts in an attempt to flog a debt ridden poorly run business that is owned by a Russian millionaire who has mismanged his company for years. This gentleman has an established record of not paying staff, tax bills and other small Scottish businesses on time and generally appears to have a do not care attitude towards Scotland. Or would his attempted intervention be regarded as ethically incorrect.

    P.S. I understand the wee eck may have a soft spot for this mismanaged business.

    Re word all you want - doesn't change the fact that the OP didn't say what you asked him to clarify. He might well think that what wee eck said, if indeed we accept that the daily rankger is now a media organ of rectitude against most hibs.net opinion since the broonaldo/katiie days, was bang out of order, but he quite rightly (imho) thinks there's far bigger fish to fry.

    If any voter thinks the SNP are wrong to look for Scottish independence - don't base it on what Salmond is alleged to have said to the Qataris re hmfc
    If any voter thinks the SNP are right to look for Scottish independence - don't base it on what Salmond is alleged to have said to the Qataris re hmfc

  14. #193
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    Oh dear. Embarrassing and cringeworthy.

    Being lobbied by outside commercial interests is one thing, going and then acting on their behalf is quite another. No-one is criticising a Minister for "having a listening ear" in this instance, it is what he then did with his mouth, the information and his public office afterward that is the problem.

    The best thing to do when a politician screws up either by accident or design (particularly a Minister) is to own up, say sorry and move on. Wriggling and squirming to try and make the indefensible defensible has only one effect - to make crystal clear that your politician is exactly the same as all other politicians and that there is something to hide.

    The convoluted and unconvincing arguments as to why it is perfectly fine for someone who is the First Minister for all of Scotland to use his public office and time to advance the case for one particular football club (which he just happens to support) is simply digging a bigger hole for him.
    Is there any difference between Salmond being in China and the Middle East, trying to drum up business for the Scottish wind and wave power industries, and the Hearts situation? After all, it's about jobs, taxes, public interest.

  15. #194
    @hibs.net private member One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allmodcons View Post
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    What did he do with his mouth ODS. You have no idea do you? I doubt anybody other than the FM knows what was said (or not said).
    Your agenda (as always) is to try and stir things up. This is a complete non story and you know it. If there had been any sniff of wrongdoing,
    let alone corruption, by the FM don't you think this would be a headline news story by now? Instead the only place it is generating any interest
    is on Hibs.net and why, nothing to do with corruption or abuse of power, purely and simply because the FM is a Jambo.

    If you are seriously suggesting that the FM is 'wriggling and squirming' over this (non) story and should make some kind of public apology then
    you really have some nerve claiming another poster's comments are 'embarrassing and cringeworthy'?


    Well that's the first I have noticed of anyone suggesting corruption and its in your post not anyone else's. Poor judgment - absolutely. Corruption - don't be daft.

    Your use of the phrase 'the FM' suggests a senior party or Holyrood perspective because most 'normal' people don't use that terminology. Civil servants and politicians do. If you are an insider you should know that Salmond is way too classy a politician to do 'wriggling and squirming'. Not so his apologists on .net however, many of whom have been doing just that as I suggested in an earlier post.

    If you think that it is appropriate for Scotland's First Minister to be raising the matter 'informally' with the Emir and the Prime Minister of Qatar and also with officials from Qatar Holdings (that's quite a bit of serially 'informally raising' on Hearts behalf don't you think?) then we are going to have to agree to differ on what is proper and acceptable for a First Minister to be doing with the public office he holds.

    And we haven't even touched yet upon the damage done to football in general by having clubs become the toys of wealthy - and not so wealthy - foreign owners. The poor judgment shown in being a willing accomplice to trying to accelerate that process in the case of Hearts and Qatar demonstrates for me a fundamental lack of understanding as to what is needed to save our game. If he had been successful it would have helped Hearts at the expense of Scottish football in general as the twisted and unequal league we have would have seen an acceleration of the disfunction between the overinflated 'big' clubs of Celtc, Rangers and Hearts at the expense of all the others. Not clever and - ironically - not in Scotland's interest.

  16. #195
    @hibs.net private member One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Is there any difference between Salmond being in China and the Middle East, trying to drum up business for the Scottish wind and wave power industries, and the Hearts situation? After all, it's about jobs, taxes, public interest.
    I presume - and hope - that efforts to encourage foreign investment into Scottish renewables projects and opportunities are about investment into an industry generally and coming to Scotland to find out what opportunities there are across the spectrum.

    That's quite a lot different to 'Fancy putting some money into the the football team I support?'. Different if the enquiries to the Qatari Emir, the Prime Minister and Qatari Holdings officials (really, was there anyone else in Qatar left to be asked in this series of 'informal' conversations?) had been about investing in Scottish football generally. But it wasn't. It was about investing in one team - Hearts.

  17. #196
    @hibs.net private member allmodcons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    Well that's the first I have noticed of anyone suggesting corruption and its in your post not anyone else's. Poor judgment - absolutely. Corruption - don't be daft.

    Your use of the phrase 'the FM' suggests a senior party or Holyrood perspective because most 'normal' people don't use that terminology. Civil servants and politicians do. If you are an insider you should know that Salmond is way too classy a politician to do 'wriggling and squirming'. Not so his apologists on .net however, many of whom have been doing just that as I suggested in an earlier post.

    If you think that it is appropriate for Scotland's First Minister to be raising the matter 'informally' with the Emir and the Prime Minister of Qatar and also with officials from Qatar Holdings (that's quite a bit of serially 'informally raising' on Hearts behalf don't you think?) then we are going to have to agree to differ on what is proper and acceptable for a First Minister to be doing with the public office he holds.

    And we haven't even touched yet upon the damage done to football in general by having clubs become the toys of wealthy - and not so wealthy - foreign owners. The poor judgment shown in being a willing accomplice to trying to accelerate that process in the case of Hearts and Qatar demonstrates for me a fundamental lack of understanding as to what is needed to save our game. If he had been successful it would have helped Hearts at the expense of Scottish football in general as the twisted and unequal league we have would have seen an acceleration of the disfunction between the overinflated 'big' clubs of Celtc, Rangers and Hearts at the expense of all the others. Not clever and - ironically - not in Scotland's interest.
    You might want to read an earlier post by Dashing Bob S and then think about retracting your opening statement. It's a good idea to check your facts before spouting off, but when your blind to any balance I don't expect getting the facts correct really matters to you.

  18. #197
    @hibs.net private member One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allmodcons View Post
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    You might want to read an earlier post by Dashing Bob S and then think about retracting your opening statement. It's a good idea to check your facts before spouting off, but when your blind to any balance I don't expect getting the facts correct really matters to you.

    You are quite right and I'm more than happy to retract what I said about others mentioning corruption. Particularly because getting the facts right in these discussions is important.

    I am equally happy to restate what I wrote on the subject: Poor judgment - absolutely. Corruption - don't be daft.

    As to the facts, I think you have conveniently ignored the rest of them. In not engaging on the substance you are in my view showing greater wisdom than some of your fellow separatists.
    Last edited by One Day Soon; 25-01-2012 at 04:07 PM.

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