Goalie

[heretoday]

Hibs haven't had a decent keeper for yonks.

We always used to have great goalies and it's just as well given the porous nature of some of our defences!

[R'Albin]

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Anyone who thinks that - at that pace and trajectory - that cross was Stack's responsibility knows next to nothing about being a goalie.

IMO

[TornadoHibby]

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JC said on ESPN that Stacky should have come for the corner.If he had we would not have lost the second goal.
Anything in the 6 yard box has to be claimed or punched at least.

I think thats right.

I am not looking for scapegoats but am surprised I cannot see any comment on this on here..

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I don't think the ball was in the 6 yard box until it landed at the unmarked SPL top scorer?

There was much said on here on Saturday afternoon/evening about whether Stack should have made some attempt to punch the ball clear or block it in some way or just try and put Jelavic off by jumping in front of him rather than standing on his line and hoping to save any header from a striking distance of around 4 yards!

Try some of this stuff (quotes) which has both sides of the "discussion" but before you do have another look at the "incident" using the BBC Highlights and watch from 4:00, Jelavic head to ball contact at 4:09!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/16132778.stm

Saturday Afternoon to evening quotes - saves you looking through several other threads as the points made are all pretty similar wherever you look! Some support JC and some think that Stack was right to do what essentially amounted to absolutely nothing to try and keep the ball out of his net irrespective of what other Hibs players didn't do which they should or might have done!

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Stack wasnt at fault for the second goal???, he should wear a cloak and probably cant see his reflection hes that scared of crosses, its only 2 yards at least make a bloody attempt for it.

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That's how I saw it too!

Failing to deal with crosses into his 6 yard box has always been a huge black hole in Stack's game IMO and, inevitably, goals will come from that failing regularly as we saw today!

The keeper should always have a height (reach) advantage in a straight "fight for the ball" and even if he only spoils the attackers header, he might well have done what he is there to do, namely keep the ball out of our net!

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the cross was an inswinging ball played outside the 6 yard box but swinging back intowards the goal.

No way should Stack have come for it. If Hart does his job and challenges Jelavich, that goal doesn't happen or is at least less likely to happen. Stack was 100% not to blame for that goal. My seat is in the West right at that end of the pitch where the goal was scored. I had a perfect view of it and have seen it again on tv. Stack wouldn't have gotten anywhere near it if he'd come for it, and Jelavich would have headed into an empty net.

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Sorry, don't agree and never will about Stack's unwillingness to come off his line to "de-risk" crosses into his 6 yard box which is the "keeper's area" after all!

Always better to try and fail IMO than to wait for the inevitable which is what he did today!

I really can't see why you would think that he "wouldn't have gotten anywhere near it if he'd come for it" but your justification for him not coming off his line is exactly what happened when he stayed on it!

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The cross only came into the 6 yard box when it reached Jelavic's head, therefore by your own definition it's outwith the "keeper's area".

Many Hibs keepers recently have tried and failed coming for crosses and when the opposition inevitably score from it the keepers get slated for it.

As for the last point, Stack has a far better chance of saving the header if he's not already out the equation having missed the cross. He didn't save it on this occasion but he has done on others.

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I'm just a practical kind of guy and Stack could and should have done much better than he did today regarding the second goal which would have been really easy for him as he did nothing! Whether the ball was marginally in or out of the six yard box (and we are talking about marginally here ) is neither here nor there if his action prevents a goal rather than his inaction doing nothing to prevent one!

I understand the theory about goalkeeping which you have kindly set out in your post and why some managers like their keepers to leave the big defenders to deal with crosses and stay on their line.

However, theory sometimes needs to be binned in situations like today IMO where any action from Stack in the region of where the ball was likely to be met by a player's head would have been better then none at all!

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Just saw the goal again on the BBC news and Stack was around 3 yards from Jelavic at the point of head contact to the ball by Jelavic around 4 yards from the goal line!

How long does it take a fit and substantially built athlete to travel 3 yards to punch a ball or simply get in the way of the ball?

It's easier to do nothing and blame others it might seem although Hart should have done better too before the ball got close to Stack!

[RiseAbove]

Stack has always been poor in coming for cross balls, he was the same at Plymouth and it was the first comment John Blackley made when he heard hibs were interested in Stack.

[matty_f]

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There was much said on here on Saturday afternoon/evening about whether Stack should have made some attempt to punch the ball clear or block it in some way or just try and put Jelavic off by jumping in front of him rather than standing on his line and hoping to save any header from a striking distance of around 4 yards!

Try some of this stuff (quotes) which has both sides of the "discussion" but before you do have another look at the "incident" using the BBC Highlights and watch from 4:00, Jelavic head to ball contact at 4:09!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/16132778.stm

Saturday Afternoon to evening quotes - saves you looking through several other threads as the points made are all pretty similar wherever you look! Some support JC and some think that Stack was right to do what essentially amounted to absolutely nothing to try and keep the ball out of his net irrespective of what other Hibs players didn't do which they should or might have done!

Just watched it again, the ball comes across the six yard line before curving in onto Jelavic's head. My opinion hasn't changed at all after seeing that for what would now be about the seventh or eighth time at least.

[TornadoHibby]

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Just watched it again, the ball comes across the six yard line before curving in onto Jelavic's head. My opinion hasn't changed at all after seeing that for what would now be about the seventh or eighth time at least.

That's fine, the evidence is there for us all to form an opinion on it, and if you still believe that Stack should not have tried to cover no more than three yards to try and prevent an otherwise certain goal then so be it!

If playing competitive sport means that a major team participant can get away with behaving in that kind of way then I've been doing something wrong for a number of years now in that I always believe (and play with that in mind) that anything that can legally be done to improve a team's position must be done by every participant during the playing time of the game!

You never did express and opinion on my question (see below) in response to your statement that Stack could never have got anywhere near the ball in a previous post from Saturday?

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How long does it take a fit and substantially built athlete to travel 3 yards to punch a ball or simply get in the way of the ball?

[SquashedFrogg]

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It only made it into the 6 yard box when it landed – at all other times it was outside. I’m not sure when Stack could’ve come and claimed it to be honest.

I'm sure the rules state that keepers can catch or punch the ball anywhere in the 18 yard box? He's not restricted to the 6 yard box.

The ball was 4 yards out when Jellybitch nodded it in and he didn't even have to jump

Keepers ball all day

[cocopops1875]

Notice an inconsistency tornado states stack was 3 yards from jellyfish though squashedfrogg says that jellyfish was 4 yards out, now the picture in the evening news shows stack in the middle of his goal on his line (that he apparently never leaves) yet jellyfish is at the back post , so with out a maths degree can you work out the actual distance stack is from the goalscorer ? Answers on a postcard to cocopops1875 and if anyone can come up with 3 yards and show me your workings I will post you a kinder egg

[TornadoHibby]

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Not saying he definitely couldn't have come for it, tho he'd have to have been a right twinkle toes to get to it, but more that that ball wasn't his responsibility. That ball wasn't some world class undefendable nightmare cross - it was a decent-ish delivery into a good area, but one that any half competent defence would have defended, as opposed to ball watching and man-marking Osborne (your own team-mate) as opposed to Jelavic (SPL top scorer who plays for the opposition) as Grandad Hart did.

That is an unbelievable statement for anyone to make about what happened in the immediacy prior to and after Jelavic getting his head to the ball for the 2nd goal!

Irrespective of what any other Hibs player did or didn't do prior to that point, Stack had a massive duty to do, as soon as he realised the ball was in his "reaching" area, all he could as the last man with the benefit of being able to legitimately use his hands and arms to distract Jelavic or catch or punch the ball with!

He did nothing and that IMO is totally inexcusable for a goalkeeper at schoolboy level let alone SPL level!

For those that disagree, could someone put the corollary argument up here for everyone to understand please!

[TornadoHibby]

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Notice an inconsistency tornado states stack was 3 yards from jellyfish though squashedfrogg says that jellyfish was 4 yards out, now the picture in the evening news shows stack in the middle of his goal on his line (that he apparently never leaves) yet jellyfish is at the back post , so with out a maths degree can you work out the actual distance stack is from the goalscorer ? Answers on a postcard to cocopops1875 and if anyone can come up with 3 yards and show me your workings I will post you a kinder egg

Not sure how your post helps at all actually but check the BBC link yourself and you will able to make your own mind up rather than relying upon hearsay or pictures in the EEN which may have been taken from viewpoints that misrepresent the situation! That way you will see that there is no "inconsistency" noted at the start of your post!

Sorry Graham but you could and should have done much better than you did with this one on Saturday!

[GreenCastle]

Should have been keepers ball or at least attempt to try and claim it and distract the goalscorer of a simple header.

If you watch it - he actually adjusts his feet and goes backwards slightly.

Stack I think is a great character and has made some very good saves for Hibs but crosses aren't his strong point and this is probably one of the main reasons he never stayed long at a top club in his 9 years as a pro - obviously injuries have hampered him also.

[cocopops1875]

Tornado having watched it many times I don't agree and there is an inconsistency as pointed out in terms of the yards. A keeper moving backwards covering 6ish yards as quick as the ball is going is unlikely at best. He was panned for going for one against celtic and failing. I also firmly believe these things are not just left to chance they are thought though and the decision is made by the boss if he should or should not be coming for them. As for the suggestion I may be stackers I assure you my 7s team wish I was

[Danderhall Hibs]

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I'm sure the rules state that keepers can catch or punch the ball anywhere in the 18 yard box? He's not restricted to the 6 yard box.

Correct but the rule we were discussing was the unwritten rule that any ball into the 6 yard box is the goalies ball.

I can't see where Stack was supposed to take the ball - I suppose he could've picked up Jelavic but that'd left the goal unattended.

[ancient hibee]

Stack was found out by other teams the minute they saw him drop the cross against Celtic in the first game of the season.A good goalie will always position himself to try and come forward for the ball instead of having to back pedal like he does.The goal he lost against Dunfermline was another terrible example -he let it go past him and by the time it reached McCann he was able to side foot it.


Pity because other than Jimmy Cowan all Scotland's best goalies over the past 60 years have played for us.

[Lago]

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Picking up the splinters for KV Mechelen in Belgium.

Misunderstood genius; a young goalie who should have been given more time.

Most natural ability of any Hibs goalkeeper since Leighton - sadly let down by lapses in concentration and a Hibs support that had been battered into submission by messrs Malkowski and Brown.

That natural ability didn't work at Swansea either.

[Scouse Hibee]

This thread is funny as Reminds me of watching a courtroom drama, all that is missing is for the prosection or the defence to call an expert witness (a current SPL goalie) to testify whether or not he would have/should have come/not come for the ball. .

Never in the field of human football has one goal been contested by so many and agreed by so few!

[Scouse Hibee]

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Picking up the splinters for KV Mechelen in Belgium.

Misunderstood genius; a young goalie who should have been given more time.

Most natural ability of any Hibs goalkeeper since Leighton - sadly let down by lapses in concentration and a Hibs support that had been battered into submission by messrs Malkowski and Brown.

Just a pity his natural abillity was **** all to do with goalkeeping!

[cocopops1875]

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Stack was found out by other teams the minute they saw him drop the cross against Celtic in the first game of the season.A good goalie will always position himself to try and come forward for the ball instead of having to back pedal like he does.The goal he lost against Dunfermline was another terrible example -he let it go past him and by the time it reached McCann he was able to side foot it.


Pity because other than Jimmy Cowan all Scotland's best goalies over the past 60 years have played for us.

very interesting so if the ball is dropping at the back post where do you suggest any keeper should position themselves at corners to as you put it "come forward for the ball" ?

[hibee_patty]

Stack is reluctant to come for crosses of any sort! We have conceded so many goals that i think stack could/should be collecting the rangers one was a quality ball in and dono if stack shoud off collected it but has to be in the face of forwards on these instances. But aberdeen at home, dunfermline, st johnstone away we have conceeded from corners. Think fenlon will be looking at this i hope

[Andy74]

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Correct but the rule we were discussing was the unwritten rule that any ball into the 6 yard box is the goalies ball.

I can't see where Stack was supposed to take the ball - I suppose he could've picked up Jelavic but that'd left the goal unattended.

That rule is nonsense. It very much depends how the ball is traveling, how quickly, where it's come from, who is in the box, how clear the path to the ball is - all sorts of things.

Watch a few games and you'll see a very low percentage of balls into the six yard box being claimed by the keeper.

[Jonnyboy]

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Anderson's heroics at Hampden against Rangers in that penalty shoot out will go with me to my grave, however my other memory of him is when he went to pick the ball up at Larsson's feet, only to pull his hands away and watch Henrik stick it in the net.

I loved big Ollie. Mind he saved a cracker of a penalty, against Celtic iirc, where he dived one way and the ball was dinked down the middle, only for him to flick his leg out and turn it onto the bar

Did you know that Ollie was a fantastic basketball player? Pity he didn't take that up instead

[lyonhibs]

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Did you know that Ollie was a fantastic basketball player? Pity he didn't take that up instead

Did one of our managers not - with the glorious benefit of hindsight - describe him as like a "drunk man trying to catch a balloon"?

On a sliding scale, our goalie position isn't top of the list. Full backs and a creative midfielder are more important.

[SquashedFrogg]

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very interesting so if the ball is dropping at the back post where do you suggest any keeper should position themselves at corners to as you put it "come forward for the ball" ?

Erm, basic coaching would suggest a yard or two off their line in the centre. Once the ball is in flight they are allowed to move from this position. Keepers are encouraged to arc across their goal area allowing them to move towards back post.


The fact of the matter is the ball was well within an area where he could've either taken it cleanly or punched. Jellypish never even jumped to head it in.

[cocopops1875]

So you suggest he goes back then forward ? as you are answering my question to someone else I assume you agree that he should be coming forward to take the ball ?

[SquashedFrogg]

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So you suggest he goes back then forward ?

as you are answering my question to someone else I assume you agree that he should be coming forward to take the ball ?

No, I'm suggesting he stands where he's been coached to stand. Then make a decision when the ball is in flight. Why would he go back and then forward?

One of the biggest area's in goalkeepers coaching is footwork and positioning.

I'm answering your post

[cocopops1875]

If you read the quoted post you would understand the question

[Danderhall Hibs]

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That rule is nonsense. It very much depends how the ball is traveling, how quickly, where it's come from, who is in the box, how clear the path to the ball is - all sorts of things.

Watch a few games and you'll see a very low percentage of balls into the six yard box being claimed by the keeper.

I think you'll find I'm agreeing with you Andy.

[SquashedFrogg]

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If you read the quoted post you would understand the question

I have and was responding to your post

[cocopops1875]

I know where a keeper should be what I wish to know is how from that starting position could he take the ball coming forward ?

[jimmythefish]

stack is seriously lacking when it comes to crosses, in the games against motherwell & dunfermline at easter road we lost 2 identical goals, balls crossed in around the 6 yard area he stays on his line & they score at the back stick , good shot stopper but hardly inspiring confidence give brown his chance much better all round keeper imo