Tonight's Attendance

[iwasthere1972]

6,741

I know admission prices were reduced but still not bad considering the conditions tonight.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/16013678.stm

[silverhibee]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

6,741

I know admission prices were reduced but still not bad considering the conditions tonight.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/16013678.stm

Looked like there was a bigger crowd than that to be honest, but with no stubs being handed out at the Hibs end and cash only at the gate, maybe a bit jiggery pokery going on with Well and the cash they took in tonight.

[lucky]

Motherwell saying 7040 with just under 1500 Hibs fans

[frazeHFC]

"Tonight's attendance has been reported incorrectly. The actual attendance was 7080. 1460 made the journey through from Edinburgh."

[LancashireHibby]

Guessed at over 7,000. The 'Well stands looked quite busy in fairness. As for the Hibs support, if "1,460 made the journey through from Edinburgh", how many others travelled from elsewhere? ;)

[hibsbollah]

i was in the lower tier and went into the upper tier at half time. There were far more than 1500 hibs fans there...whats their motivation in underreporting the attendance though?

[H18sry]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

i was in the lower tier and went into the upper tier at half time. There were far more than 1500 hibs fans there...whats their motivation in underreporting the attendance though?

Tax evasion Well season ticket holders were allowed to bring along a mate for free so they may have only counted the fans who paid.

[.Sean.]

I thought there was 8000. It was a fantasic attendance and I was really dissapointed it was abandoned. I walked round to the 'Well ticket office before the game to pick up my freebie ticket and the que for their East stand waas stretched all the way round to the main stand!

[francobaresi]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

"Tonight's attendance has been reported incorrectly. The actual attendance was 7080. 1460 made the journey through from Edinburgh."

Aye, confirm this also... Pretty good considering time of year and weather... Helped by the fact that it was PF's first game in charge... Maybe get a full house for Rangers this weekend at ER?

[BroxburnHibee]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Aye, confirm this also... Pretty good considering time of year and weather... Helped by the fact that it was PF's first game in charge... Maybe get a full house for Rangers this weekend at ER?

Great turnout by both sets of fans - there will be a better crowd now but no chance it will sell out.

That will need a sustained run of good form.

Promising signs though.

[Hibbyradge]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

.. Maybe get a full house for Rangers this weekend at ER?

Sorry, but that made me laugh.

I wonder how much Motherwell lost by only charging £5 and £10.

[Beefster]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Sorry, but that made me laugh.

I wonder how much Motherwell lost by only charging £5 and £10.

Maybe they only charged enough to break even from the game? Or maybe they think that it might attract a few extra customers longer term?

I'm not sure that any attempts to attract more people to football should be dismissed or mocked.

[Andy74]

There were two or three factors.

First the cheaper price. That might have persuaded a few but probably minimal.

Secondly I believe all Motherwell season ticket holders got another free ticket. That would have accounted for a decent uplift.

Then you have Hibs with a new manager. I think that was the main thing that added numbers to the Hibs support. Bear in mind we've filled that whole end in the past at full price. It's down to having something to go and watch and support.

[Hibbyradge]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Maybe they only charged enough to break even from the game? Or maybe they think that it might attract a few extra customers longer term?

I'm not sure that any attempts to attract more people to football should be dismissed or mocked.

I agree, but I didn't mock or dismiss.

I wonder how much it cost them to achieve a 7000 crowd.

I don't think people who ask serious questions should be mocked or dismissed.

[marinello59]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Sorry, but that made me laugh.

I wonder how much Motherwell lost by only charging £5 and £10.

The figure was given out on Sportsound, I can't remember what it was but it ran to a fair few thousand. It seemed a strange thing to do given they were trying to gauge how Friday night football would affect attendances.

[hibsbollah]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Sorry, but that made me laugh.I wonder how much Motherwell lost by only charging £5 and £10.

Doing that sum really doesnt tell you anything about the cost vs benefit of reducing prices in the medium to long term.

[Hibbyradge]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The figure was given out on Sportsound, I can't remember what it was but it ran to a fair few thousand. It seemed a strange thing to do given they were trying to gauge how Friday night football would affect attendances.

That's what I thought.

The fact that it was only £10 nearly tempted me to go along and the free tickets for Motherwell fans means that the 7000 figure is entirely skewed for any meaningful analysis.

Let's fact it, you could entice 7000 people into your back garden if you offered them a tenner for turning up! I know that's not comparing like for like, but the point is still valid.

I'm sure many would disagree, but I actually think Friday night football is a good idea. It would suit me perfectly cos I'd be able to watch Hibs and still play golf on a Saturday.

Folk could still get a good swally if that's their bag on a Friday and we wouldn't have to compete with all the other Saturday alternatives not to mention work!

[Hibbyradge]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Doing that sum really doesnt tell you anything about the cost vs benefit of reducing prices in the medium to long term.

I wasn't doing a sum, I was wondering out loud, but since you make that point, Motherwell previously experimented with reducing prices in the longer term.

They lost buckets.

In simple terms, crowds do not get close to doubling in size by halving admission prices.

[hibsbollah]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I wasn't doing a sum, I was wondering out loud, but since you make that point, Motherwell previously experimented with reducing prices in the longer term.They lost buckets.In simple terms, crowds do not get close to doubling in size by halving admission prices.

But calculating it in 'simple terms' doesnt give you a picture of the long term financial cost-benefit. It doesnt give you the child who attends his first match because of the price reduction, and becomes a season ticket holder for the rest of his life, takes his kids along with him twenty years later and spends a lifetime buying merchandise and supporting the team. Neither does it take into account the brand loyalty that is increqsed which translates into cash in the long term.Neither you nor anyone else knows whether Motherwell 'lost buckets' in tge long term, because its not a zero-sum game.

[Hibbyradge]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

But calculating it in 'simple terms' doesnt give you a picture of the long term financial cost-benefit. It doesnt give you the child who attends his first match because of the price reduction, and becomes a season ticket holder for the rest of his life, takes his kids along with him twenty years later and spends a lifetime buying merchandise and supporting the team. Neither does it take into account the brand loyalty that is increqsed which translates into cash in the long term.Neither you nor anyone else knows whether Motherwell 'lost buckets' in tge long term, because its not a zero-sum game.

That's a lovely romantic fantasy, but it wouldn't get far as a business plan. If my simple calculation doesn't give a long term cost benefit picture, yours keeps us totally in the dark.

Motherwell lost loads of money in real terms. In the here and now. That's the money they need to play their current bills and their current players wages.

Not some team in 10 years time, being watched by starry eyed youths who once attended a game for a fiver and who spend most of their spare time in the club shop buying merchandise!

If they had gone on in the vein you seem to support, the little kid who had been to his first game for a fiver, wouldn't have had any more to go to.

[hibsbollah]

In your world then, nobody would ever discount anything? Businesses need to think of the medium to long term, thats why they do it. Think about your logic and then come back. Your mockery ('jeezo' 'fantasy' and roll-eyes smilies) dont disguise the fact that your post is a bit, well, dense.

[Hibbyradge]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

In your world then, nobody would ever discount anything? Businesses need to think of the medium to long term, thats why they do it. Think about your logic and then come back. Your mockery ('jeezo' 'fantasy' and roll-eyes smilies) dont disguise the fact that your post is a bit, well, dense.

I've thought about my logic and I'm back.

It's your romantic fantasy that's dense. The word fantasy isn't mockery by the way, it's an accurate description of your suggestion.

My logic is that if Motherwell are losing money on a week to week basis, they won't be around in 10 years time to recoup the money when the little boys who attended their first games for a fiver get jobs and start pumping all their spare cash back into the club.

Presunmably your logic is that no matter how much they lose in the short to medium term, they'll be able to trade out of it in the long term. Well, ask Portsmouth or Leeds or Hearts about that.

If the idea had any merit, the successful businessman who started it would have kept it going. But it hasn't got any merit in the short, medium or long term and that's why it was stopped.

Most clubs have already got schemes designed to attract younger fans like Hibs Kids etc so further reductions in prices only serve to make the club poorer.

(Apologies for the Jeezo and the rolleyes in the previous post. They were unnecessary and I've removed them.)

[hibsbollah]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I've thought about my logic and I'm back. It's your romantic fantasy that's dense. The word fantasy isn't mockery by the way, it's an accurate description of your suggestion.My logic is that if Motherwell are losing money on a week to week basis, they won't be around in 10 years time to recoup the money when the little boys who attended their first games for a fiver get jobs and start pumping all their spare cash back into the club.Presunmably your logic is that no matter how much they lose in the short to medium term, they'll be able to trade out of it in the long term. Well, ask Portsmouth or Leeds or Hearts about that.If the idea had any merit, the successful businessman who started it would have kept it going. But it hasn't got any merit in the short, medium or ling term and that's why it was stopped.Most clubs have already got schemes designed to attract younger fans like Hibs Kids etc so further reductions in prices only serve to make the club poorer.

Thats a combination of bluster and putting words into my mouth.Lets keep it simple for you. My contention is this; businesses need to think of their long term business base as well as their short term income otherwise they wont be successful. Discounting is a proven technique used by McDonalds through to your local bakery to increase footfall which in turn leads to brand loyalty. A football club relies far more on brand loyalty than a take away food business.Your original contention is that Motherwells discounting lost them 'buckets'. You clearly have no way of knowing this, because you dont know what impact the discounting will have on their future sales. Youre saying its cut and dried, im saying it its more complicated than that. Or do you only plan to follow Hibs for the short term?

[greenlex]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Thats a combination of bluster and putting words into my mouth.Lets keep it simple for you. My contention is this; businesses need to think of their long term business base as well as their short term income otherwise they wont be successful. Discounting is a proven technique used by McDonalds through to your local bakery to increase footfall which in turn leads to brand loyalty. A football club relies far more on brand loyalty than a take away food business.Your original contention is that Motherwells discounting lost them 'buckets'. You clearly have no way of knowing this, because you dont know what impact the discounting will have on their future sales. Youre saying its cut and dried, im saying it its more complicated than that. Or do you only plan to follow Hibs for the short term?

Motherwell tried reducing prices for a sustained period a few years ago. It coincided with their demise into administration. Hugely discounted prices dont work.

[LancashireHibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Motherwell tried reducing prices for a sustained period a few years ago. It coincided with their demise into administration. Hugely discounted prices dont work.

But wasn't that for a sustained period? Saw tons of kids walking away from the ground on Friday, clutching their MFC club shop bags etc - if they now become full-paying 'Well fans instead of Old Firm then they will most certainly see the benefit. Quite often with the scenario of reduced prices, clubs get sponsors to cover any perceived immediate shortfall, so maybe that was the case in this instance?

[Hibbyradge]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Thats a combination of bluster and putting words into my mouth.Lets keep it simple for you. My contention is this; businesses need to think of their long term business base as well as their short term income otherwise they wont be successful. Discounting is a proven technique used by McDonalds through to your local bakery to increase footfall which in turn leads to brand loyalty. A football club relies far more on brand loyalty than a take away food business.Your original contention is that Motherwells discounting lost them 'buckets'. You clearly have no way of knowing this, because you dont know what impact the discounting will have on their future sales. Youre saying its cut and dried, im saying it its more complicated than that. Or do you only plan to follow Hibs for the short term?

No need to keep it simple for me, thanks.

And to think you complained of me mocking you!

I don't support Hibs because it was cheap to get in in the 60's/70's. In fact, I don't know anyone who supports their team because they went along to a cheap match. Do you?

Hibs already have proven discounting policies for younger fans, such as cheap season tickets, concessions and Hibs kids. Motherwell have the same.

I do know that Motherwell lost a lot of money, buckets of it, because Boyle was widely quoted as saying so. I heard him talking about it on off the ball, iirc.

What I'm saying is indeed, cut and dried. If a club can't pay it's day to day bills, it will cease to exist so it will never realise any future benefit that it may or may not get from reducing admission prices.

John Boyle saw that Motherwell's losses were so great, they would never recoup them so he put an end to the scheme.

Of course, he could have been wrong. I don't suppose you have a model projection of how your scheme would work and the ratio/timescale of current loss and future riches?

Keep it simple for me though.

[Hibbyradge]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

But wasn't that for a sustained period? Saw tons of kids walking away from the ground on Friday, clutching their MFC club shop bags etc - if they now become full-paying 'Well fans instead of Old Firm then they will most certainly see the benefit. Quite often with the scenario of reduced prices, clubs get sponsors to cover any perceived immediate shortfall, so maybe that was the case in this instance?

I don't think anyone is against occasional initiatives, like Green Days and 2 for 1's etc.

However, lets assume Motherwell lost out on only £50k on Friday.

How long is it going to take to get that back?

Most people get taken to games by their parents at some stage, whether or not there's a discount on offer.

I don't have any statistics, but I doubt the effectiveness of these initiatives as recruiting devices.

Winning games gets bums on seats.

During the last few games of CC's reign, it seemed to me that they wouldn't have filled Easter Road if it had been free to get in!

[LancashireHibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I don't think anyone is against occasional initiatives, like Green Days and 2 for 1's etc.

However, lets assume Motherwell lost out on only £50k on Friday.

How long is it going to take to get that back?

Most people get taken to games by their parents at some stage, whether or not there's a discount on offer.

I don't have any statistics, but I doubt the effectiveness of these initiatives as recruiting devices.

Winning games gets bums on seats.

During the last few games of CC's reign, it seemed to me that they wouldn't have filled Easter Road if it had been free to get in!

The gate receipts wouldn't have been anywhere near £50k even if there was 7,000 on at full price once you deduct season ticket holders, complimentary tickets, concessions etc. I think there is definitely a balance between how much 'full price' equates to and the offer on Friday - even keeping it below the £20 mark for an adult would be a start.

[Hibbyradge]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The gate receipts wouldn't have been anywhere near £50k even if there was 7,000 on at full price once you deduct season ticket holders, complimentary tickets, concessions etc. I think there is definitely a balance between how much 'full price' equates to and the offer on Friday - even keeping it below the £20 mark for an adult would be a start.

True.

1500 Hibs fans @ £20 a head = £30k so a potential loss of £15k (Putting aside the effect of the cheaper prices on the number for now.)

So even if they only take gate money from 500 Well fans, their total loss would be around £20k.

Will they ever recoup that money from folk turning up in future?

If not, they'll need to sell a lot of hats and scarves etc to cover it.

I'm not against lower prices, far from it. I just don't think that it works and I'm pretty sure that better business brains than mine have come to the same conclusion.

[lucky]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

There were two or three factors.

First the cheaper price. That might have persuaded a few but probably minimal.

Secondly I believe all Motherwell season ticket holders got another free ticket. That would have accounted for a decent uplift.

Then you have Hibs with a new manager. I think that was the main thing that added numbers to the Hibs support. Bear in mind we've filled that whole end in the past at full price. It's down to having something to go and watch and support.

Andy can't think when have filled that stand. It holds 5000.