Competitive Scottish League

[Septimus]

Levein in a Scotsman article today opts for a more "competitive 10 team league" which he believes is "the right thing for Scottish football. He does not make it clear why a ten team league would be more competitive than the present model. Rangers and Celtic will continue to dominate until it is recognised that the financial package has to be shared fairly between all for the benefit of all. Tinkering with the league structure is not the answer and attendances this year show that unless a radical change is introduced the game in Scotland is dead.

Hibs are now rapidly going the way of the Partick Thistles and Dundees of this world. These were competitive teams at the top of Scottish football when I was a boy and they have been frozen out financially.

Where I would agree with Levien is in his assessment that "we need clubs to recognise that they need to train more often". While the players in the Scottish league may arguably be less skillful than those in the English league surely they can be just as fit. What is needed is a strong dose of professionalism from our players.

[PISTOL1875]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Levein in a Scotsman article today opts for a more "competitive 10 team league" which he believes is "the right thing for Scottish football. He does not make it clear why a ten team league would be more competitive than the present model. Rangers and Celtic will continue to dominate until it is recognised that the financial package has to be shared fairly between all for the benefit of all. Tinkering with the league structure is not the answer and attendances this year show that unless a radical change is introduced the game in Scotland is dead.

Hibs are now rapidly going the way of the Partick Thistles and Dundees of this world. These were competitive teams at the top of Scottish football when I was a boy and they have been frozen out financially.

Where I would agree with Levien is in his assessment that "we need clubs to recognise that they need to train more often". While the players in the Scottish league may arguably be less skillful than those in the English league surely they can be just as fit. What is needed is a strong dose of professionalism from our players.

Both Paul Le Guen at Rangers and our every own John Collins tried that and look what happened to them ???

[Sas_The_Hibby]

Everyone that proposes a ten team SPL seems to merely look at it as a paper exercise. The fact that most fans do not want it and it would make the game in Scotland even more tedious doesn't seem to enter the equation.

It's time to stop the nonsense about a 'competitive 10 team league' which is purely about making the OF more able to compete in Europe (see how well that policy has worked so far!), and concentrate on the home product. 16 team league, 30 league games a season, make bizarre kick off times the exception rather than the rule.

Less money in the Scottish game? - yes, at least initially, but we'd all be in the same boat.
More incentive to develop young local talent - yes.
Less interest from the TV companies? - yes, but the game doesn't belong to them.
Better product and a more interesting league? - yes, I believe so and it may bring some of the crowds back.
More room for experimentation and less of a fear factor - yes.
Two derbies a season rather than 3 or 4? - yes, and a good thing too IMO: the more derbies there are, the less of an occasion they become.
Risk of the OF leaving for 'greener' pastures? - let's hope so.

[PISTOL1875]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Everyone that proposes a ten team SPL seems to merely look at it as a paper exercise. The fact that most fans do not want it and it would make the game in Scotland even more tedious doesn't seem to enter the equation.

It's time to stop the nonsense about a 'competitive 10 team league' which is purely about making the OF more able to compete in Europe (see how well that policy has worked so far!), and concentrate on the home product. 16 team league, 30 league games a season, make bizarre kick off times the exception rather than the rule.

Less money in the Scottish game? - yes, at least initially, but we'd all be in the same boat.
More incentive to develop young local talent - yes.
Less interest from the TV companies? - yes, but the game doesn't belong to them.
Better product and a more interesting league? - yes, I believe so and it may bring some of the crowds back.
More room for experimentation and less of a fear factor - yes.
Two derbies a season rather than 3 or 4? - yes, and a good thing too IMO: the more derbies there are, the less of an occasion they become.
Risk of the OF leaving for 'greener' pastures? - let's hope so.

Yeh that would be great.. Then our game would go right down the toilet...

[weecounty hibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Yeh that would be great.. Then our game would go right down the toilet...

Please explain. They are here at the moment and we are at the lowest ebb I have seen in 37 years of wathing Scottish football. They are the root cause of most of the problems in Scottish football and a lot of the problems in Scottish society!

[PISTOL1875]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Please explain. They are here at the moment and we are at the lowest ebb I have seen in 37 years of wathing Scottish football. They are the root cause of most of the problems in Scottish football and a lot of the problems in Scottish society!

The whole selling point of our game is quite simply.. Celtic V Rangers..

Do you honestly think if those two up sticks and left , anybody would give a monkeys about our game ????

Teams would struggle financially and many of the lower league would have to part time and maybe even bust....

[TheEastTerrace]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Levein in a Scotsman article today opts for a more "competitive 10 team league" which he believes is "the right thing for Scottish football. He does not make it clear why a ten team league would be more competitive than the present model. Rangers and Celtic will continue to dominate until it is recognised that the financial package has to be shared fairly between all for the benefit of all. Tinkering with the league structure is not the answer and attendances this year show that unless a radical change is introduced the game in Scotland is dead.

Hibs are now rapidly going the way of the Partick Thistles and Dundees of this world. These were competitive teams at the top of Scottish football when I was a boy and they have been frozen out financially.

Where I would agree with Levien is in his assessment that "we need clubs to recognise that they need to train more often". While the players in the Scottish league may arguably be less skillful than those in the English league surely they can be just as fit. What is needed is a strong dose of professionalism from our players.

His argument is that the top ten teams play each other more often meaning more intensity playing against the best players in Scotland each week. Not saying I agree, but that's what he's getting at.

Problems for me go much deeper - I think the sheer lack of professionalism in some players is huge - as someone pointed out, Le Guen and Collins were ditched for trying to bring in a cleaner lifestyle and tougher training regime. The boys would rather have their midweek night on the lash. The Cameron House incident summed up Scottish players, perhaps British players too, for me.

I also read Rantic's highest earners are on £25k per week - rather inflated IMO for the gash churned out each week.

[Dashing Bob S]

The only way Levein could change of the many unacceptable faces of Scottish football is by getting rid of that stupid beard.

[Hibercelona]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The whole selling point of our game is quite simply.. Celtic V Rangers..

Do you honestly think if those two up sticks and left , anybody would give a monkeys about our game ????

Teams would struggle financially and many of the lower league would have to part time and maybe even bust....

Who currently gives a monkeys about our game anyway?

[PISTOL1875]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Who currently gives a monkeys about our game anyway?

You are right mate.. Games against hertz are the only time I get excited about these days....

[SRHibs]

A 16 team league would be a bad idea in my opinion, for the following reasons:

• Less of each lucrative game. Fine, playing Rangers, Celtic and Hearts 3-4 times in a season might be a little bit tedious, but these are our most profitable matches. Replacing those with lackluster affairs such as matches against Dundee, Ayr, Ross Country or whoever, wouldn't be that wise.
• Not enough European places to play for. With a small league like we currently have, unless you've been terrible throughout the entire season, then the chances are you'll still be in with a chance of Euro qualification in the latter stages of the season. Attendances would most likely plummet drastically were we to be in 12th place half way through the season with nothing to play for.
• Less money in the game = poorer standard of football. Again, we would expect a decrease in attendances as a result of this. We're already paying an extortionate amount for mediocre football.

We need to maximise our income, so I'm in support of whatever league system will do this. I don't want to play in a league akin to the Irish one - ***** standard of football, but competitive.

[Sas_The_Hibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The whole selling point of our game is quite simply.. Celtic V Rangers..

Do you honestly think if those two up sticks and left , anybody would give a monkeys about our game ????Teams would struggle financially and many of the lower league would have to part time and maybe even bust....

Who do you think gives a monkeys at the moment, outside of Scottish football fans? Nobody in any other country is interested and the TV companies seem to be losing interest too.

Celtic V Rangers is of absolutely no interest, whatsoever, to me, and I don't think I'm alone.

More money in the game doesn't automatically make it a better product, only a more expensive one for the fans. Personally, I'd rather see home grown (cheaper, if you like) young players dominating the game in Scotland, before moving on, than largely overpaid foreign / English journeymen. The current situation is untenable, IMO, and a ten team league would only make it worse.

[PISTOL1875]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Who do you think gives a monkeys at the moment, outside of Scottish football fans? Nobody in any other country is interested and the TV companies seem to be losing interest too.

Celtic V Rangers is of absolutely no interest, whatsoever, to me, and I don't think I'm alone.

More money in the game doesn't automatically make it a better product, only a more expensive one for the fans. Personally, I'd rather see home grown (cheaper, if you like) young players dominating the game in Scotland, before moving on, than largely overpaid foreign / English journeymen. The current situation is untenable, IMO, and a ten team league would only make it worse.

Yeh but they are a interest of the millions of fans they have all over the world.. These are the people who watch them on TV and thats where the money thats in our game comes from.. Albeit , its very little , its better than nothing.....

[SRHibs]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Who do you think gives a monkeys at the moment, outside of Scottish football fans? Nobody in any other country is interested and the TV companies seem to be losing interest too.

Celtic V Rangers is of absolutely no interest, whatsoever, to me, and I don't think I'm alone.

More money in the game doesn't automatically make it a better product, only a more expensive one for the fans. Personally, I'd rather see home grown (cheaper, if you like) young players dominating the game in Scotland, before moving on, than largely overpaid foreign / English journeymen. The current situation is untenable, IMO, and a ten team league would only make it worse.

The prices are never going to drop. The Scottish game will end up six feet under if we vote to expand to a 16 or 18 team league, IMO. Would be even worse if the OF were to leave us. Can't imagine many will be too keen to pay £28 a ticket for football that's of Sunday league quality.

[Moulin Yarns]

We had a more com
petetive league when more teams were able to compete against the old firm, and that was when all gate money was shared equally. Next question.

[Sas_The_Hibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

A 16 team league would be a bad idea in my opinion, for the following reasons:

• Less of each lucrative game. Fine, playing Rangers, Celtic and Hearts 3-4 times in a season might be a little bit tedious, but these are our most profitable matches. Replacing those with lackluster affairs such as matches against Dundee, Ayr, Ross Country or whoever, wouldn't be that wise.
• Not enough European places to play for. With a small league like we currently have, unless you've been terrible throughout the entire season, then the chances are you'll still be in with a chance of Euro qualification in the latter stages of the season. Attendances would most likely plummet drastically were we to be in 12th place half way through the season with nothing to play for.
• Less money in the game = poorer standard of football. Again, we would expect a decrease in attendances as a result of this. We're already paying an extortionate amount for mediocre football.

We need to maximise our income, so I'm in support of whatever league system will do this. I don't want to play in a league akin to the Irish one - ***** standard of football, but competive.

There's no reason games against these sides should be any more lacklustre than the current fare, TBH. As far as playing Hearts 3 or 4 times a season is concerned, it merely devalues these games. Yes we make a bit more money out of them but even at these games attendances seem to be falling and I suspect we're in danger of 'killing the golden goose'.

All the SPL can think of is more games between the top teams, as if that's a panacea, rather than looking at the overall product. "Maximising our income", as you put it, is not an end in itself.

[Sas_The_Hibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Yeh but they are a interest of the millions of fans they have all over the world.. These are the people who watch them on TV and thats where the money thats in our game comes from.. Albeit , its very little , its better than nothing.....

With all due respect, this is a "crumbs from the master's table" counsel of despair.

[Hibercelona]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

You are right mate.. Games against hertz are the only time I get excited about these days....

I don't think the OF leaving would have a negative effect on the league at all, quite the opposite IMO.

Our best players have almost always been brought up through the youth system. If the OF were to leave, the lack of money would force clubs into developing their own youngsters through their youth set ups.

This would be great because:

1) We would have players that were loyal to their clubs and would play for the strip
2) No longer would we experience over priced and over-rated dross from other countries
3) In todays youth-lazy country, it would give more youngsters something to aim for and something to get motivated about
4) The SPL would no longer get such a negative rep with those 2 monsters gone

Things would certainly be tough to begin with, but I reckon in the long run, with the right attitude and keeping football a fun, involving sport, the SPL could certainly thrive.

[Sas_The_Hibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The prices are never going to drop. The Scottish game will end up six feet under if we vote to expand to a 16 or 18 team league, IMO. Would be even worse if the OF were to leave us. Can't imagine many will be too keen to pay £28 a ticket for football that's of Sunday league quality.

How many feet above ground do you think the Scottish game is right now?

The cynic in me says that you may well be right that prices won't ever drop, in which case my proposition falls. My preferred (idealistic) option would be that clubs wise up and cut their cloth accordingly, the game becomes cheaper for fans, whether the OF stays or goes, and the game is run for the benefit of the fans, rather than the TV companies, Rangers and Celtic.

I accept this is unlikely in the immediate future, but it may be more likely than you think, if and when football's financial bubble, particularly in England and Spain, finally bursts and deflation comes into effect. On the other hand, I'm probably talking b*****ks!

[alexedwards]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Levein in a Scotsman article today opts for a more "competitive 10 team league" which he believes is "the right thing for Scottish football. He does not make it clear why a ten team league would be more competitive than the present model. Rangers and Celtic will continue to dominate until it is recognised that the financial package has to be shared fairly between all for the benefit of all. Tinkering with the league structure is not the answer and attendances this year show that unless a radical change is introduced the game in Scotland is dead.

Hibs are now rapidly going the way of the Partick Thistles and Dundees of this world. These were competitive teams at the top of Scottish football when I was a boy and they have been frozen out financially.

Where I would agree with Levien is in his assessment that "we need clubs to recognise that they need to train more often". While the players in the Scottish league may arguably be less skillful than those in the English league surely they can be just as fit. What is needed is a strong dose of professionalism from our players.

The fact that Levein does not say why a 10-team league is more competitive suggests there is no why and that someone else is doing the talking for him.
Levein and some others think all is well with the Scottish national team - and that would mean qualification for a major tournament - we'll see!

[Sas_The_Hibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The fact that Levein does not say why a 10-team league is more competitive suggests there is no why and that someone else is doing the talking for him.
Levein and some others think all is well with the Scottish national team - and that would mean qualification for a major tournament - we'll see!

The ten team league has just become a mantra, like "There Is No Alternative". There are several alternatives but they just don't happen to suit the OF, IMO.

[weecounty hibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The whole selling point of our game is quite simply.. Celtic V Rangers..

Do you honestly think if those two up sticks and left , anybody would give a monkeys about our game ????

Teams would struggle financially and many of the lower league would have to part time and maybe even bust....

There is NO selling point to our game. Just look at the tv money we get. Even with the disgusting institution that is the OF no one and I mean no one is interested. How interested are you in Argentinian football? They arguably have bigger derbies than the OF game. Do you want to pay to see them? No, didn't think so. That is how the OF is seen around the world, It is a freak show that people will watch once or twice and then become bored of it. We as a country need to stop pandering to them at every level.

[HibsNibs]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Yeh but they are a interest of the millions of fans they have all over the world.. These are the people who watch them on TV and thats where the money thats in our game comes from.. Albeit , its very little , its better than nothing.....

Wrong - next time there's an OF derby look at this site

http://liveonsat.com/index.html

and you'll see it's on in about 3 countries while the corresponding EPL or La Liga match will be on in about 30 or 40. Nobody outside Scotland except a few sad bigoted ex-pats give a flying one about the gruesome twosome.

[PISTOL1875]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

With all due respect, this is a "crumbs from the master's table" counsel of despair.

But these are the facts mate.. You can't hide from it can you ????

[PISTOL1875]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Wrong - next time there's an OF derby look at this site

http://liveonsat.com/index.html

and you'll see it's on in about 3 countries while the corresponding EPL or La Liga match will be on in about 30 or 40. Nobody outside Scotland except a few sad bigoted ex-pats give a flying one about the gruesome twosome.

That is complete tosh.. It doesn't matter where you go in the world.. You will always see Celtic or Rangers tops...

[PISTOL1875]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

There is NO selling point to our game. Just look at the tv money we get. Even with the disgusting institution that is the OF no one and I mean no one is interested. How interested are you in Argentinian football? They arguably have bigger derbies than the OF game. Do you want to pay to see them? No, didn't think so. That is how the OF is seen around the world, It is a freak show that people will watch once or twice and then become bored of it. We as a country need to stop pandering to them at every level.

The OF are the main attraction in our game and that's the facts.. There is no getting away from it..

Celtic need Rangers..
Rangers need Celtic.
Everybody needs Celtic and Rangers..

[weecounty hibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

That is complete tosh.. It doesn't matter where you go in the world.. You will always see Celtic or Rangers tops...

With respect you need to stop listening to your OF supporting mates and the OF biased media. I have travelled all over the world and can honestly say that I have seen very few OF tops except when you go to the package holiday resorts and that is usually holiday makers. Even if you go to Dublin, which I have done a number of times, most recently on business two months ago you will see very few Celtic tops, they are more interested in the EPL teams and rugby than Celtic.

[weecounty hibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The OF are the main attraction in our game and that's the facts.. There is no getting away from it..

Celtic need Rangers..
Rangers need Celtic.
Everybody needs Celtic and Rangers..

I agree with you on your first two points but think you are way off the mark with the third. They need us more than we need them. We would have another 37 senior teams to play, they would only be able to play each other!

[HiBremian]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Levein in a Scotsman article today opts for a more "competitive 10 team league" which he believes is "the right thing for Scottish football. He does not make it clear why a ten team league would be more competitive than the present model. Rangers and Celtic will continue to dominate until it is recognised that the financial package has to be shared fairly between all for the benefit of all. Tinkering with the league structure is not the answer and attendances this year show that unless a radical change is introduced the game in Scotland is dead.

Hibs are now rapidly going the way of the Partick Thistles and Dundees of this world. These were competitive teams at the top of Scottish football when I was a boy and they have been frozen out financially.

Where I would agree with Levien is in his assessment that "we need clubs to recognise that they need to train more often". While the players in the Scottish league may arguably be less skillful than those in the English league surely they can be just as fit. What is needed is a strong dose of professionalism from our players.

C'mon boys and girls, give the OP a bit more respect. He states clearly that tinkering is not the answer, and we get (with some fine exceptions!) a series of posts about.......


....tinkering.

* no of teams in the league
* with or without the OF
* the selling point of the league as presently consituted

The original question was how to make the league more competitive - which might just get the fans returning. The OP gives a hint - the financial structure. FFS, don't just accept the financial structure, and then go on about the OF leaving if we don't make it attractive enough. The game needs radical change, and that means some political will to take on the money men. Football clubs don't have to be based on raw capitalism - we used to share all gate monies, remember, and for a good reason. The league was once seen as a cooperative enterprise amongst sports teams who agreed to compete under a commonly owned umbrella. That's what leagues used to be. Then the money men took over, and decided that football clubs were just another stock market plaything.

I now live in Germany, and there's one ugly club here as well (you all know who they are). Frankly, they could GTF tomorrow, and the rest of the Bundesliga would hardly notice. The league here is more competitive because there are still some basic rules in place about what owners can and cannot do with a football club. The German model is not great panacea for our troubles, but it shows that there are other ways to run football.

No nationalist myself, but if they were smart, this would be another one of these SNP issues that clearly distinguishes us from south of the border.

Just my view...

PS Werder won again today, top equal with the Uglies

[PISTOL1875]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

With respect you need to stop listening to your OF supporting mates and the OF biased media. I have travelled all over the world and can honestly say that I have seen very few OF tops except when you go to the package holiday resorts and that is usually holiday makers. Even if you go to Dublin, which I have done a number of times, most recently on business two months ago you will see very few Celtic tops, they are more interested in the EPL teams and rugby than Celtic.

You wanna stop patronising me here. . I am giving you my view on the topic and I find it offensive that you think that I don't see my view without input from other angles..

Moving on, You see OF tops everywhere.. Why do you think Celtic go to places like Australia to play friendlies ?? They go to help promote themselves in that neck of the woods.. I was in Australia last year and there was OF tops kicking about.. Have you ever been to Boston mate ???