16 team league (Portugal has three teams in Europa League 1/2 finals)

[Luna_Asylum]

Seems to work OK in one smallish european country - if you consider that getting 3 teams into the semi finals of the Europa Cup is any kind of achievement.
Yes that's a 16 team league which spells financial meltdown, maximum player quality Nish Rankin bla bla bla de bla. For those who think this is irrevelvent keep up your support for Doncaster/Petrie.

[millarco]

Porto have won 14 of the last 20 league titles, including this season where they are unbeaten and have only dropped 4 points. They are 19 points clear of second place, with another 14 point gap between 2nd and 3rd-hardly competitive.

One of the main differences is the clubs ability to fill their squads with Brazilian and Argentinian players. If you look at the Benfica and Braga squads they are filled with South Americans, due to the difference in work permit regulations. They are then able to sell players on for substantial profits, like Di Maria and David Luiz at Benfica. Revenue streams are also far in excess of anything we could achieve. I don't really know anything about Portuguese sides other than the ones that have played in Europe so I couldn't comment on overall standard of league, but I don't think it's a fair comparison of structures.

I think people are expecting too much from a league re-structuring. Changing to a 10 or 16 team league won't automatically mean that other teams will win the league, the OF will still have far greater resources than anyone else and so should be winning every season. We should aim to close the gap by improving ourselves rather than trying to drag them down. We have the infrastructure in place to develop and really push on, we just need to try get a winning team, focus on consistently bringing through youth players and try to gradually build from there.

[marinello59]

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Seems to work OK in one smallish european country - if you consider that getting 3 teams into the semi finals of the Europa Cup is any kind of achievement.
Yes that's a 16 team league which spells financial meltdown, maximum player quality Nish Rankin bla bla bla de bla. For those who think this is irrevelvent keep up your support for Doncaster/Petrie.

Do you favour a 16 team league over an 18 team league then? That would be only 30 league games. How do you propose making up the shortfall in income from that? Would a split be acceptable?

[marinello59]

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I think people are expecting too much from a league re-structuring. Changing to a 10 or 16 team league won't automatically mean that other teams will win the league, the OF will still have far greater resources than anyone else and so should be winning every season. We should aim to close the gap by improving ourselves rather than trying to drag them down. We have the infrastructure in place to develop and really push on, we just need to try get a winning team, focus on consistently bringing through youth players and try to gradually build from there.

Well said.

[Luna_Asylum]

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Do you favour a 16 team league over an 18 team league then? That would be only 30 league games. How do you propose making up the shortfall in income from that? Would a split be acceptable?

I don't have all the answers. Was just highlighting that a smallish county seemed to have some success with a 16 team league. If you don't agree it has an relevence to scotland feel free to ignore.

[marinello59]

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I don't have all the answers. Was just highlighting that a smallish county seemed to have some success with a 16 team league. If you don't agree it has an relevence to scotland feel free to ignore.

Sorry I thought you might want to engage in some constructive debate for a change rather than post your opinions as facts and sneering at anybody who disagrees with you. I can see how an 18 team league would work in terms of number of games, a straight home and away round robin giving 34 games. I still wonder how a 16 team league would function and given that you are advocating such a set up I thought it was a fair question.

[Zondervan]

Can we not consider something similar to what happens in Holland, what with play-offs at the top & bottom of the league?

Something like this would work in a 16 team top league in Scotland:

1st Place: Champions League

2nd Place: Champions League Qualifier

3rd Place: Europa League

4th - 7th Place: 4th vs 7th and 5th vs 6th; the two winners play each other to qualify for Europa League

14th - 15th Place: Play-off against 2nd & 3rd from the SFL 1st Division

16th Place: Relegation to SFL 1st Division (SFL winners promoted)

On the plus side, it would more or less remove meaningless games for the majority of teams; it also gives teams in the SFL more of an opportunity to make it to the top division thus freshening up the league each year.

On the down side it would remove 2 Old Firm Games & 2 Edinburgh derbies from the fixture list, which would obviously not be good from a TV money & sponsorship perspective. And that is why it will never happen!!

[Luna_Asylum]

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Sorry I thought you might want to engage in some constructive debate for a change rather than post your opinions as facts and sneering at anybody who disagrees with you. I can see how an 18 team league would work in terms of number of games, a straight home and away round robin giving 34 games. I still wonder how a 16 team league would function and given that you are advocating such a set up I thought it was a fair question.

apology accepted

[marinello59]

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Can we not consider something similar to what happens in Holland, what with play-offs at the top & bottom of the league?

Something like this would work in a 16 team top league in Scotland:

1st Place: Champions League

2nd Place: Champions League Qualifier

3rd Place: Europa League

4th - 7th Place: 4th vs 7th and 5th vs 6th; the two winners play each other to qualify for Europa League

14th - 15th Place: Play-off against 2nd & 3rd from the SFL 1st Division

16th Place: Relegation to SFL 1st Division (SFL winners promoted)

On the plus side, it would more or less remove meaningless games for the majority of teams; it also gives teams in the SFL more of an opportunity to make it to the top division thus freshening up the league each year.

On the down side it would remove 2 Old Firm Games & 2 Edinburgh derbies from the fixture list, which would obviously not be good from a TV money & sponsorship perspective. And that is why it will never happen!!

Still not a fan of a 16 team set up but that does seem like a good way of making it work. .

[H18sry]

We could also bring back the group stages of the league cup home and away, which would also bring much needed revenue to the lower tiers of Scottish football

[marinello59]

I think we did this thread last week. I will back out now, I don't want to spoil the ending for anybody who may have missed it.

[easty]

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I think we did this thread last week. I will back out now, I don't want to spoil the ending for anybody who may have missed it.

Bruce Willis character is actually dead, and the boy is the only one who can see him?

[down the slope]

I have posted this before but if you can bear it here is the Norwegian structure a country similar in size and population to us. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tippeligaen
Sixteen teams with the bottom two relegated and the next one up in danger of a play off. Seems to work for them and you only see teams once a season-imagine , better than the system Donkey and Petrie have tried to foist on us. Maybe someone could tell us what the Norwegian national teams ranking is compared to Scotland's ?, i honestly don't know but they will not be much worse than us if any.
Thirty games leaves us short of the number we play just now but we could make the league cup a home and away fixture and same with the Scottish , by the way sixteen teams were in the league when we last won the league so if it was good enough then...

[Beefster]

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Seems to work OK in one smallish european country - if you consider that getting 3 teams into the semi finals of the Europa Cup is any kind of achievement.
Yes that's a 16 team league which spells financial meltdown, maximum player quality Nish Rankin bla bla bla de bla. For those who think this is irrevelvent keep up your support for Doncaster/Petrie.

Is their success down to the league? Is the league competitive or is it the same teams who win it again and again and again? What are the attendences like in Portugal?

Rangers got to the UEFA Cup final a couple of years ago - an endorsement for the 12 team league?

[H18sry]

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Is their success down to the league? Is the league competitive or is it the same teams who win it again and again and again? What are the attendences like in Portugal?

Rangers got to the UEFA Cup final a couple of years ago - an endorsement for the 12 team league?

3 Portuguese teams are battling it out in the semi finals of the Europa league this season, so I don't see your logic.

[StevieC]

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Is their success down to the league? Is the league competitive or is it the same teams who win it again and again and again?

Lets be honest, whatever the league set-up it will still be won by either Celtic or Rangers. What we have to consider, from both the fans perspective and the clubs, is what the league set-up will bring to the table in respect to the other games.

The fans, for the most part, accept it's not a competitive league and look towards variety. The clubs concentrate on revenue stream.

The bottom line though, for the league to expand you would need the Old Firm to agree to halving the number of times they meet each other in the league. If they don't then it doesn't get passed the discussion stage with the ridiculous 11-1 majority needed to incorporate any changes.

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Rangers got to the UEFA Cup final a couple of years ago - an endorsement for the 12 team league?

Not if you actually watched the games and their style of play.

[Liberal Hibby]

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Can we not consider something similar to what happens in Holland, what with play-offs at the top & bottom of the league?

Something like this would work in a 16 team top league in Scotland:

1st Place: Champions League

2nd Place: Champions League Qualifier

3rd Place: Europa League

4th - 7th Place: 4th vs 7th and 5th vs 6th; the two winners play each other to qualify for Europa League

14th - 15th Place: Play-off against 2nd & 3rd from the SFL 1st Division

16th Place: Relegation to SFL 1st Division (SFL winners promoted)

On the plus side, it would more or less remove meaningless games for the majority of teams; it also gives teams in the SFL more of an opportunity to make it to the top division thus freshening up the league each year.

On the down side it would remove 2 Old Firm Games & 2 Edinburgh derbies from the fixture list, which would obviously not be good from a TV money & sponsorship perspective. And that is why it will never happen!!

That would require removing the Euro place from the cup winners. It also means that six teams - nearly 40% - still have nothing to play for.

I'd keep the split, but do it after two rounds of games. You could either then have a 32 game season (and have an extra relegation/playoff place) or if you invited the top four from from the first to join the bottom four - to make two leagues of eight (one playing for the title and Europe, the other for relegation/promotion) - you would have a 36 game season.

[Luna_Asylum]

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I have posted this before but if you can bear it here is the Norwegian structure a country similar in size and population to us. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tippeligaen
Sixteen teams with the bottom two relegated and the next one up in danger of a play off. Seems to work for them and you only see teams once a season-imagine , better than the system Donkey and Petrie have tried to foist on us. Maybe someone could tell us what the Norwegian national teams ranking is compared to Scotland's ?, i honestly don't know but they will not be much worse than us if any.
Thirty games leaves us short of the number we play just now but we could make the league cup a home and away fixture and same with the Scottish , by the way sixteen teams were in the league when we last won the league so if it was good enough then...

Interesting

Norway - league size 16 FIFA ranking 11
Portugal - league size 16 FIFA ranking 8
Scotland - league size 12 FIFA ranking 66

perhaps means nothing

[Dinkydoo]

I'm undecided on what I think would suit Scottish football best in terms of league reconstruction if I'm to be honest.

I however fail to see how you can try to justify a 16 team league by using Portugal's european success as an example, especially since the quality of players are so much better there than here.

I doubt the number of teams in the league has any significance.

[PaulSmith]

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Interesting

Norway - league size 16 FIFA ranking 11
Portugal - league size 16 FIFA ranking 8
Scotland - league size 12 FIFA ranking 66

perhaps means nothing

Your right it doesn't. What does it is full sized indoor facilities in every large district, coaches who are properly coached to teach kids plus an environment which allows young players to express themselves rather than being verbally abused from their own parent, coaches and other parents.

What league size they end up playing in as an adult is totally irrelivent IMO.

[Luna_Asylum]

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I'm undecided on what I think would suit Scottish football best in terms of league reconstruction if I'm to be honest.

I however fail to see how you can try to justify a 16 team league by using Portugal's european success as an example, especially since the quality of players in are so much better there than ourselves.

I doubt the number of teams in the league has any significance.

Not trying to justify anything. Merely highlighting that 16 team leagues do not all fail miserebly like doncaster/pertie tell us ours would.

[down the slope]

To be honest you will never get rid of meaningless games whatever the size of league you have but what a chance we have here to be a bit more inclusive instead of being ever more greedy as Donkey/Petrie would have. Expand the league and spread whatever wealth there is towards a few other teams , yes it would mean less money for us but maybe just maybe the freshness a new and bigger set up might actually increase the crowds ? , as it is our football is dying on it's feet and and to insist that a more concentrated and repetitive version of what we have will sort it is bordering on the farcical.

[marinello59]

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Not trying to justify anything. Merely highlighting that 16 team leagues do not all fail miserebly like doncaster/pertie tell us ours would.

I don't think that accurately reflects what they are saying. The longer term aim IS to expand the league but the argument is that we don't have enough strength in depth to go straight to a 16 or 18 team top league at present. You may disagree with that viewpoint but there is a logic in their thinking.

[Luna_Asylum]

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I don't think that accurately reflects what they are saying. The longer term aim IS to expand the league but the argument is that we don't have enough strength in depth to go straight to a 16 or 18 team top league at present. You may disagree with that viewpoint but there is a logic in their thinking.

that's was highlighted by someone already (correctly IMHO) as a smokescreen

[Dashing Bob S]

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that's was highlighted by someone already (correctly IMHO) as a smokescreen

Of course it is. The authorities will never lower the number of OF games.

[Beefster]

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3 Portuguese teams are battling it out in the semi finals of the Europa league this season, so I don't see your logic.

I suppose my point is that the size of the league has nothing to do with how successful the teams are in Europe. It's not like a 16 team league is suddenly going to have any team outwith the OF capable of being successful in Europe.

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Lets be honest, whatever the league set-up it will still be won by either Celtic or Rangers. What we have to consider, from both the fans perspective and the clubs, is what the league set-up will bring to the table in respect to the other games.

The fans, for the most part, accept it's not a competitive league and look towards variety. The clubs concentrate on revenue stream.

The bottom line though, for the league to expand you would need the Old Firm to agree to halving the number of times they meet each other in the league. If they don't then it doesn't get passed the discussion stage with the ridiculous 11-1 majority needed to incorporate any changes.



Not if you actually watched the games and their style of play.

If it wasn't for the 11-1 majority, we'd probably have a ten team league by now.

[marinello59]

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that's was highlighted by someone already (correctly IMHO) as a smokescreen

That's an opinion, not fact. It may be, it may not be.
You don't have any argument against the logic of a delayed progression to an expanded league then?

[Luna_Asylum]

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That's an opinion, not fact. It may be, it may not be.
You don't have any argument against the logic of a delayed progression to an expanded league then?

Correct. Mostly everything I say is an opinion. The clue you may have missed in this opinion was "that's was highlighted by someone already (correctly IMHO) as a smokescreen"

And for your question no I dont.

[marinello59]

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Correct. Mostly everything I say is an opinion. The clue you may have missed in this opinion was "that's was highlighted by someone already (correctly IMHO) as a smokescreen"

And for your question no I dont.

Well I can't argue with that. Straight to a 16 team league it is then.

(I know you probably won't answer this but is there any reason why you prefer a 16 team set up to an 18 team set up? Just curious.)

[Zondervan]

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Still not a fan of a 16 team set up but that does seem like a good way of making it work. .

Must admit, I am not sure what is the best number of teams for the top flight is. But I am getting bored of playing teams 4 times a season and I think it generally needs to be expanded to get rid of the monotony and boredom (as seen at the last 2 home games!). I'd like to think that a top league could succeed with teams like Raith Rovers, Dunfermline, Falkirk, Morton competing on a regular basis. Whether or not 10/14/16 is the answer I am not sure, but the current 12 team set up with the split has run its course.

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That would require removing the Euro place from the cup winners. It also means that six teams - nearly 40% - still have nothing to play for.

I'd keep the split, but do it after two rounds of games. You could either then have a 32 game season (and have an extra relegation/playoff place) or if you invited the top four from from the first to join the bottom four - to make two leagues of eight (one playing for the title and Europe, the other for relegation/promotion) - you would have a 36 game season.

Agree that this would be dependant on our co-efficiency and this will vary from season to season, but generally it is known 12 - 18 months in advance how many Euro places a league has. As for the cup, I would get rid of the Euro place but UEFA insist on this for the national cup competitions.

I disagree with the fact that teams would have nothing to play for. You could be in 10th place with a few games to play and you could end up 7th and in a Euro play off; or you could get dragged down to 14th and be in a relegation play-off!

I do like the idea of a split after 2 rounds though, as long as play-off were introduced as you suggest to keep things interesting & meaningful for as many teams as possible.