History repeating

[patlowe]

I'm beginning to wonder whether the current side is an iteration of the Hughes team that went on a decent run in the early part of last season but remained utterly unconvincing and just as likely to suffer a disastrous turnaround. There's no doubt we've got better recently against the league's dross but I've yet to see Calderwood's team dominate a match (though you could argue the same for Yogi and Mixu) and we lack any sort of attacking flair. Should I get used to 5th-10th place finishes and scrappy wins or does CC have a long-term plan for improvement?

[Alex Trager]

How longs he been in the job now? As soon as the unbeaten run ends people begin to doubt him...AGAIN
Still has the same ***** players he had at the start except a few of his own... surely needs another transfer window? Personally i dont care if hibs dont play with 'flair' if they get results. I'd imagine he does indeed have a long term plan

[Franck is God]

Calderwood's job in January was to put a side on the pitch to avoid being dragged into a prolonged relegation battle. That has now been achieved with the minimum of fuss.

Top six two months ago would have been laughed at however we almost gave ourselves a wee chance of making it thanks to a good run of results.

Last night we got beat away from home by the best team in the country so to suggest that it is simply history repeating itself is surely the quickest kneejerk ever?

[Alex Trager]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Calderwood's job in January was to put a side on the pitch to avoid being dragged into a prolonged relegation battle. That has now been achieved with the minimum of fuss.

Top six two months ago would have been laughed at however we almost gave ourselves a wee chance of making it thanks to a good run of results.

Last night we got beat away from home by the best team in the country so to suggest that it is simply history repeating itself is surely the quickest kneejerk ever?

Just saying, after ayr i said as we left sommerset, we'll be challenging for top six and was laughed at, however i put hibernian to finish in the top six on at 80-1 and every week people would say that my bet had such a good chance to come in.. Obviously it wont now but thats not the point

[Andy74]

I don't think so.

Any team can go on a bad run but there was a combination of things that made our run happen and as it went on it became more difficult to get back out.

We currently don't really have any of those things happening, other than a couple of players missing, it was just a bad night against a good team.

[patlowe]

Gosh, people are sensitive on here. It's not a "kneejerk reaction", I'm quite happy with CC as manager and am impressed with the moderate stability he has brought. I could have just as easily posted this four weeks ago as I do not base my opinion on a defeat to Celtic at Parkhead! I just feel this is a similar scenario to the beginning of Yogi's tenure and as such, I have similar reservations about the current team.

[hibee62]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Gosh, people are sensitive on here. It's not a "kneejerk reaction", I'm quite happy with CC as manager and am impressed with the moderate stability he has brought. I could have just as easily posted this four weeks ago as I do not base my opinion on a defeat to Celtic at Parkhead! I just feel this is a similar scenario to the beginning of Yogi's tenure and as such, I have similar reservations about the current team.

The difference is that instead of being told a player he liked was available and signing him without any thought as to whether he was needed or not (Cregg, McBride) Calderwood has identified where improvements were needed and signed players on that basis:

Right back: Towell
Strong midfielder: Palsson
Creative: Vaz Te
Big guy upfront: Sodje

Given this he will do the same in the summer and we will be better still...

[patlowe]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The difference is that instead of being told a player he liked was available and signing him without any thought as to whether he was needed or not (Cregg, McBride) Calderwood has identified where improvements were needed and signed players on that basis:

Right back: Towell
Strong midfielder: Palsson
Creative: Vaz Te
Big guy upfront: Sodje

Given this he will do the same in the summer and we will be better still...

Fair point but I'd argue that some of Yogi's signings were similarly targeted. Hart appeared a good signing for RB which was a problem area (though it's not quite worked out!) and McBride/Miller were definitely required through the middle. As I say, the good results Yogi achieved early on gave the impression that he had the midas touch in terms of signings and results but the reality was that we scraped a few results before being found out.

As for CC's signings, I'm 100% giving them all the benefit of the doubt but I'm pretty unconvinced by Scott, Thornhill and Sodje. Pallson has the athleticism and potential to go far but I'd question his technical ability up to this point. Vaz Te I have high hopes for but he has "Benji" written all over him (not necessarily a bad thing!). Towell is another with potential and I'd like to see him stay.

[hibee62]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Fair point but I'd argue that some of Yogi's signings were similarly targeted. Hart appeared a good signing for RB which was a problem area (though it's not quite worked out!) and McBride/Miller were definitely required through the middle. As I say, the good results Yogi achieved early on gave the impression that he had the midas touch in terms of signings and results but the reality was that we scraped a few results before being found out.

As for CC's signings, I'm 100% giving them all the benefit of the doubt but I'm pretty unconvinced by Scott, Thornhill and Sodje. Pallson has the athleticism and potential to go far but I'd question his technical ability up to this point. Vaz Te I have high hopes for but he has "Benji" written all over him (not necessarily a bad thing!). Towell is another with potential and I'd like to see him stay.

I think Sodje is unspectacular but gives us something we don't have and definitely contributes to the team. Agree re Thornhill and Scott. Palsson I think looks the pick of them and I think Towell looks good but will probably be heading back...

[Elephant Stone]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'm beginning to wonder whether the current side is an iteration of the Hughes team that went on a decent run in the early part of last season but remained utterly unconvincing and just as likely to suffer a disastrous turnaround. There's no doubt we've got better recently against the league's dross but I've yet to see Calderwood's team dominate a match (though you could argue the same for Yogi and Mixu) and we lack any sort of attacking flair. Should I get used to 5th-10th place finishes and scrappy wins or does CC have a long-term plan for improvement?

I had similar worries, but I'm quite confident we won't see a similar pattern.

I see more potential in the current squad than I saw in Yogi's unconvincing team that went on the decent run and I'm hoping that they'll continue to improve further.

[dangermouse]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I think Sodje is unspectacular but gives us something we don't have and definitely contributes to the team. Agree re Thornhill and Scott. Palsson I think looks the pick of them and I think Towell looks good but will probably be heading back...

I think Thornhill will turn out to be a really good player for us. He was injured just before he signed and with a good pre season and regular first team action I reckon he will be a first pick next season.

[Albion Hibs]

I dont think we can say it is the same as with Yogi or that things have not improved. Since the January window we have been a much better team, and unlike the run under Yogi I dont think there are any games I would say we definatly got a result that we did not deserve, if anything maybe the opposite when you look at games like Sunday.

Whilst I am not convinced that some of the signings are anything more than 'get us safely to the end of the season ones', they have certainly managed to get rid of all of the relegation threads from this board, which in the space of 7 games is a pretty reasonable achievement.

I think Calderwood has showen he can identify a problem and prepare a fix. Hopefully come the summer window his judgements are as good and we can take on a couple more players that make us more competative at the end of the table we all want to be playing at.

[Andy74]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The difference is that instead of being told a player he liked was available and signing him without any thought as to whether he was needed or not (Cregg, McBride) Calderwood has identified where improvements were needed and signed players on that basis:

Right back: Towell
Strong midfielder: Palsson
Creative: Vaz Te
Big guy upfront: Sodje

Given this he will do the same in the summer and we will be better still...

Hold on, Cregg, McBride and Miller were required because we had a midfield of the likes of Chisholm and Keenan up to then. Cregg didn't work out, mainly because Miller then arrived, but Miller and McBride were key to a great run.

As mentioned further down Hart was needed as we had DVZ before and Wotherspoon wasn't really a right back.

Stack improved the keeper position, Stokes improved the striking position.

Dickoh and Stephens were identified to help with the height and muscle at the back.

So yes, Calderwood has done fine with the signings he has made so far but it's not correct to say he is alone in that in recent times and we still need to see how well they do over time.

Even De Graaf, Trakys and Duffy were actually the right type of players for gaps we had but evidently didn't work out.

[Hibs90]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'm beginning to wonder whether the current side is an iteration of the Hughes team that went on a decent run in the early part of last season but remained utterly unconvincing and just as likely to suffer a disastrous turnaround. There's no doubt we've got better recently against the league's dross but I've yet to see Calderwood's team dominate a match (though you could argue the same for Yogi and Mixu) and we lack any sort of attacking flair. Should I get used to 5th-10th place finishes and scrappy wins or does CC have a long-term plan for improvement?

I seen Calderwoods team dominate an Edinburgh Derby on Sunday. FFS, he's also himself said its a continuing work in progress. Hibs fans were warned that scrappy wins are what he does. We are not Brazil. We are not Barcelona. Get over it and get used to it.

[CallumLaidlaw]

Under Hughes, we needed a right-back. Yes he got Hart, but I dont remember Hart ever having a decent game. CC brought in Towell, who apart from a couple of silly mistakes (which you can forgive a youngster) he has been solid and likes to go forward.

We needed a left back. Hughes loaned out Booth, and loaned in Grounds, who had maybe 1 decent game.

We need a tough presence in midfield. Hughes brought in Cregg & McBride. CC brought in Palsson & Scott. The 2nd two are literally in a different league!!

We needed a strong man upfront. Hughes brought in a very unfit Trakys. CC brought in an extremely fit and ready to go Sodje.

I have 100% faith in CC

[Andy74]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I dont think we can say it is the same as with Yogi or that things have not improved. Since the January window we have been a much better team, and unlike the run under Yogi I dont think there are any games I would say we definatly got a result that we did not deserve, if anything maybe the opposite when you look at games like Sunday.

.

I think that is being a little bit daft.

Under Hughes, to begin with, we were challenging for second place up until February. That was done by getting results against teams in all parts of the league.

We had one of the best defensive records up until the turn of the year, for decades, and we had Stokes and Riordan amongst the top scorers in the SPL.

So, things were going just fine, it's just not credible to say that wasn't deserved or that the run we have just produced betters it in any way. We've hardly been in sparkling, dominant and attacking form.

Yes, things went down from there but really, the arguments about that part of it would be a bit more credible without all the writing off the early results part.

[patlowe]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I seen Calderwoods team dominate an Edinburgh Derby on Sunday. FFS, he's also himself said its a continuing work in progress. Hibs fans were warned that scrappy wins are what he does. We are not Brazil. We are not Barcelona. Get over it and get used to it.

I have to bite on this one and respond to all your points:

We dominated most of the second half on Sunday because they got a man sent off at the end of an abject first half. I'm not criticising CC here, just stating how I felt the game went.

I understand that it's a work in progress and I (unlike some in recent months) am willing to give him as long as he needs, but that is what all managers say at all times so I'm not going to expect wonders as a result of that statement.

I'm not saying I wouldn't take scrappy wins if it meant relative success, I'm just asking whether that is what we should come to expect.

We are not Brazil or Barcelona but I have seen hibs completely overrun by just about every team in this league at some point over the last 3/4 years and I'd quite like to see us do the same at some stage.

[Andy74]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I seen Calderwoods team dominate an Edinburgh Derby on Sunday. FFS, he's also himself said its a continuing work in progress. Hibs fans were warned that scrappy wins are what he does. We are not Brazil. We are not Barcelona. Get over it and get used to it.

I suspect, that if that was a John Hughes side in the exact same circumstances the chat would be that were over-run for most of the first half, defended woefully, were lightweight in midfield and were very lucky, through bad finishing from Hearts, and some luck, not be two or three down.

That after we were a man up we were tippy tappy, slow, lacked ideas, pace or ingenuity and that the huddy he'd signed up front had a mare and didn't win a header all day.

And that having scored we had the usual calamity at the back and lacked the desire, experince or ability to defend a simple ball in the box.

That would have been the chat, without doubt, eh?

[Keith_M]

To be fair to the OP, he's perfectly entitled to raise his concerns. I'm not of the opionion that it's ever OK to go to Celtc Park and be happy that at least we weren't beaten by 6 or 7 goals.

CCs first job was to get us out of the relegation zone, which he's done. However, we need to move on from there. That will take time and the only thing we can do is wait and see. There are no guarantees that CC will take Hibs to the next level, but it's a bit early to say the team have fallen apart. I really hope to see yet more new players appear over the summer and a stronger squad developed.

Onward and upwards.

[dangermouse]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I seen Calderwoods team dominate an Edinburgh Derby on Sunday. FFS, he's also himself said its a continuing work in progress. Hibs fans were warned that scrappy wins are what he does. We are not Brazil. We are not Barcelona. Get over it and get used to it.

Rome was not built in a day. I doubt even the "Special One" could get us from relegation contenders to top of the league (well 3rd) challengers in the short space of time CC has been in charge.

He has turned the team around of that there is no doubt but the real challenge will be to further improve what we have at present and of what I've seen so far I have more faith in CC to do so than in Hughes.

[Kato]

I'm beginning to wonder whether the current side is an iteration of the Hughes team that went on a decent run in the early part of last season but remained utterly unconvincing and just as likely to suffer a disastrous turnaround. There's no doubt we've got better recently against the league's dross but I've yet to see Calderwood's team dominate a match (though you could argue the same for Yogi and Mixu) and we lack any sort of attacking flair. Should I get used to 5th-10th place finishes and scrappy wins or does CC have a long-term plan for improvement?

You're missing out on the big difference.

Hughes is a balloon.

Calderwood isn't.

[jdships]

Surely the bottom line here is "WORK IN PROGRESS "
For pity's sake let's give CC a chance to show us what he is made of

[Sodje_18]

FFS the man clearly knows what he's doing, he still has the same dross he inherited, let him get more of his own players in then you'll see more change for the better. You can't doubt him every time things don't go his way

[bighairyfaeleith]

SACK HIM!!!!!

[sambajustice]

I would say that History is repeating itself in that Hughes was like Duff Jim, while Calderwood has come in and brought in some steady players a la McLeish! Mind McLeish had a very dodgy First Division start before we got on the straight and narrow. We were toiling right up til about November time! Calderwood has steadied the ship and hopefully we can progress next season.

if Hughes was still here I have no doubt we'd be looking at serious relegation scrap with Hamilton. Its a position a team like Hibs should never be in but that b'loon managed to drag us down.

I think we're over the worst of it!

[ginger_rice]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

How longs he been in the job now? As soon as the unbeaten run ends people begin to doubt him...AGAIN
Still has the same ***** players he had at the start except a few of his own... surely needs another transfer window? Personally i dont care if hibs dont play with 'flair' if they get results. I'd imagine he does indeed have a long term plan

I think he will aim to have Hibs like a top performing Championship side, which to some may seem lacking ambition, however if we could consistently perform to that level, I would argue that that would be good enough to make us consistently compete at the top of the SPL

I also like the way he goes about his business in a very professional manner, compare CC to the antics of the Hearts bench, or indeed to Yogi and Mixu.

I reckon I'd like to see him at ER for a few years.

[--------]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'm beginning to wonder whether the current side is an iteration of the Hughes team that went on a decent run in the early part of last season but remained utterly unconvincing and just as likely to suffer a disastrous turnaround. There's no doubt we've got better recently against the league's dross but I've yet to see Calderwood's team dominate a match (though you could argue the same for Yogi and Mixu) and we lack any sort of attacking flair. Should I get used to 5th-10th place finishes and scrappy wins or does CC have a long-term plan for improvement?

There IS no doubt we've got better against the teams in the lower half of the League - if they're 'dross', then so are we, realistically - but I do think we've shown clear signs of being better able to hold the ball and dictate play than we did over the previous 2 years at least.

I wouldn't say we lack any sort of attacking flair - we haven't been taking our chances, sure, but I would say that was more to do with the fact that Derek's been off the boil and we're carrying three forwards of rather limited capacity (to say the least) in Trakys, Duffy, and Nish, which severely limits CC's options up front.

The main thing after the New Year was to bring in players immediately who could keep us in the SPL. CC did this. We're not going down, and we're looking a lot more competitive and aggressive in defence and midfield. The next task is to plug a few more of the gaps in defence and up front and push for a top-6 finish and maybe even a Cup run or two.

I'm sure CC will be releasing a fair number of the present squad, and signing replacements for them. Palsson, Scott, Thornhill and Sodje all look more than useful; I hope we sign Vaz Te in the summer, and I'd like to see Richie Towell stay on, though I rather think he'll be back at Parkhead in July. We've yet to see what Divis can do; Stack should be fit by the end of the season and I hope he stays on too - with Brown that would make a useful trio of keepers. Of course, if CC spots a better one in the meantime....

But of course, CC may just have decided to spite us all by building a completely mediocre team that has just enough ability to stay in the SPL without ever challenging for anything other than an occasional top-6 finish.

[I would say we were actually a bit unlucky on Sunday. As for last night, I would say that if nothing else it shows that the team isn't anything more than a work in progress right now, and that we urgently need to sign a right-back all of our very own before the new season opens. And our back four needs to learn to push up the park a bit more - we were defending on a dreadfully deep line too often in the first half IMO.]

[Beefster]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I suspect, that if that was a John Hughes side in the exact same circumstances the chat would be that were over-run for most of the first half, defended woefully, were lightweight in midfield and were very lucky, through bad finishing from Hearts, and some luck, not be two or three down.

That after we were a man up we were tippy tappy, slow, lacked ideas, pace or ingenuity and that the huddy he'd signed up front had a mare and didn't win a header all day.

And that having scored we had the usual calamity at the back and lacked the desire, experince or ability to defend a simple ball in the box.

That would have been the chat, without doubt, eh?

That might have been the chat but only after Hughes had broken records for runs without wins and we had been piss-poor for months. It certainly wouldn't have been the chat if Hughes had had us currently unbeaten in 7 games (or since January) at the time of the game.

I'm all for a bit of revisionism-spotting but let's not pretend that folk were always ultra-critical of Hughes. A manager doing well gets the benefit of the doubt, a manager having a mare doesn't.

[patlowe]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

There IS no doubt we've got better against the teams in the lower half of the League - if they're 'dross', then so are we, realistically - but I do think we've shown clear signs of being better able to hold the ball and dictate play than we did over the previous 2 years at least.

I wouldn't say we lack any sort of attacking flair - we haven't been taking our chances, sure, but I would say that was more to do with the fact that Derek's been off the boil and we're carrying three forwards of rather limited capacity (to say the least) in Trakys, Duffy, and Nish, which severely limits CC's options up front.

The main thing after the New Year was to bring in players immediately who could keep us in the SPL. CC did this. We're not going down, and we're looking a lot more competitive and aggressive in defence and midfield. The next task is to plug a few more of the gaps in defence and up front and push for a top-6 finish and maybe even a Cup run or two.

I'm sure CC will be releasing a fair number of the present squad, and signing replacements for them. Palsson, Scott, Thornhill and Sodje all look more than useful; I hope we sign Vaz Te in the summer, and I'd like to see Richie Towell stay on, though I rather think he'll be back at Parkhead in July. We've yet to see what Divis can do; Stack should be fit by the end of the season and I hope he stays on too - with Brown that would make a useful trio of keepers. Of course, if CC spots a better one in the meantime....

But of course, CC may just have decided to spite us all by building a completely mediocre team that has just enough ability to stay in the SPL without ever challenging for anything other than an occasional top-6 finish.

[I would say we were actually a bit unlucky on Sunday. As for last night, I would say that if nothing else it shows that the team isn't anything more than a work in progress right now, and that we urgently need to sign a right-back all of our very own before the new season opens. And our back four needs to learn to push up the park a bit more - we were defending on a dreadfully deep line too often in the first half IMO.]

One of only a small number on this thread that has answered the question with reason. I have no vendetta against Calderwood!

As I've said earlier, I like the athleticism and aggression of Palsson. However, I have concerns regarding the other new signings but as you say they were brought in to do a job until the summer. I'm interested to see CC's ability to bring in players with more of an emphasis on ball retention, disciplined technical ability and pace (if they are available on our budget) as while I'm delighted with the stability achieved in recent months, I'm desperate to see entertaining football at ER again in the long term.

[Arch Stanton]

Having had 3 transfer windows Hughes went into a new season getting results (not convincing results but with the likes of Stokes in your team who needs to be convincing) - then a downward spiral started.

CC on the other hand started off in mid-season with a team heading towards relegation and after one transfer window got us unto a winning streak with a run of convincing performances.

Now, I must tell you, I'm struggling to see the historic parallels here.