Dundee

[Hibs Class]

Dundee's creditors have accepted 6p in the pound.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...ee/9390813.stm

If I read that correctly then Dundee racked up debt of £2.3m and only end up repaying c.£138k. That cannot be right - a 25 point penalty probably still leaves them in Div 1 next year. They should have been forced down a league or two - it may still happen depending on how closely the SFL choose to look at it.

[Exiled Hibby]

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Dundee's creditors have accepted 6p in the pound.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...ee/9390813.stm

If I read that correctly then Dundee racked up debt of £2.3m and only end up repaying c.£138k. That cannot be right - a 25 point penalty probably still leaves them in Div 1 next year. They should have been forced down a league or two - it may still happen depending on how closely the SFL choose to look at it.

while I agree with your sentiments, cannot see any further punishment coming their way from the league. The punishment has been set, appealed, appeal rejected, appealed again and appeal rejected again. No way can they make the punishment harsher now just coz Dundee proved capable of winning a lot of games even with the reduced squad.
SFL's mistake was not simply demoting them 2 divisions as they had done with Livi.

[CB_NO3]

The whole administration thing is a farce. Hypothetically what could stop Hearts going into Administration now, getting a 25 points deduction which means they will be safe and paying back 5 million in debt instead of 30 million. I think a new rule has to come into place. If I was Livi, I would be going crazy.

[Exiled Hibby]

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The whole administration thing is a farce. Hypothetically what could stop Hearts going into Administration now, getting a 25 points deduction which means they will be safe and paying back 5 million in debt instead of 30 million. I think a new rule has to come into place. If I was Livi, I would be going crazy.

the paying back less only works if the creditors agree to accept the lesser payments, so, in h****s case, given that their main creditor is the bank of toytown (or whatever) who they claim are also the owners, that debt could be written off at any time - but vlads not that mad

[MacBean]

I just dont get why clubs should be punished by being demoted / deducted points. Without the 25 point deduction Dundee would be sitting top of division 1 looking likely to join the SPL next season, allowing them to payback their creditors and not making other small businesses suffer.

I agree in punishing these teams however i think making it harder for them to have success is not the answer. Perhaps chuck them out the cup competitions or a transfer embargo.

[Exiled Hibby]

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I just dont get why clubs should be punished by being demoted / deducted points. Without the 25 point deduction Dundee would be sitting top of division 1 looking likely to join the SPL next season, allowing them to payback their creditors and not making other small businesses suffer.

I agree in punishing these teams however i think making it harder for them to have success is not the answer. Perhaps chuck them out the cup competitions or a transfer embargo.

very simple - its business and its the law. you either pay back what you owe or suffer the consequences. In the scenario you set out what would happen if they were top but blew promotion, as indeed happened last year - should the creditors keep giving them another year?....then another ...etc etc

[Sylar]

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I just dont get why clubs should be punished by being demoted / deducted points. Without the 25 point deduction Dundee would be sitting top of division 1 looking likely to join the SPL next season, allowing them to payback their creditors and not making other small businesses suffer.

I agree in punishing these teams however i think making it harder for them to have success is not the answer. Perhaps chuck them out the cup competitions or a transfer embargo.

Sod that - they should have punted right into the third division! How is it fair on your opposition if you rack up huge amounts of debt that you can't service, putting players salaries, supportive businesses and sponsors into temporary financial disarray whilst you gamble on getting to the big time? Without the players they couldn't afford, Dundee wouldn't be at the top of the division before their penalty.

Clubs need to live within their means and Dundee haven't, ergo, they should be hammered. 25 points wasn't enough, as they look likely to escape relegation and remain in division 1 next season. The SFL set a precedent with both Gretna and Livingston getting punted into the third division and the SFL bottled doing the same to a bigger, more established club in Dundee. That probably sounds like I have something against Dundee, but my real bugbear is the lack of clear cut rules on insolvency for the SFL clubs, whose fate then lies at the door of the other SFL chairmen. Consistency via rules is needed!

The SFL have said that they'll revisit the issue in March with a view to further punishment, but they'll bottle that too.

[MacBean]

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Sod that - they should have punted right into the third division! How is it fair on your opposition if you rack up huge amounts of debt that you can't service, putting players salaries, supportive businesses and sponsors into temporary financial disarray whilst you gamble on getting to the big time? Without the players they couldn't afford, Dundee wouldn't be at the top of the division before their penalty.

Clubs need to live within their means and Dundee haven't, ergo, they should be hammered. 25 points wasn't enough, as they look likely to escape relegation and remain in division 1 next season. The SFL set a precedent with both Gretna and Livingston getting punted into the third division and the SFL bottled doing the same to a bigger, more established club in Dundee. That probably sounds like I have something against Dundee, but my real bugbear is the lack of clear cut rules on insolvency for the SFL clubs, whose fate then lies at the door of the other SFL chairmen. Consistency via rules is needed!

The SFL have said that they'll revisit the issue in March with a view to further punishment, but they'll bottle that too.

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very simple - its business and its the law. you either pay back what you owe or suffer the consequences. In the scenario you set out what would happen if they were top but blew promotion, as indeed happened last year - should the creditors keep giving them another year?....then another ...etc etc

fair points.

[ancienthibby]

The responsibility here clearly rests with the Board of Directors alone.

Maybe this should silence all the Hibs Board critics!!

(posted that before The Falcon or Andy 74 got wind of it!!)

[Pretty Boy]

The way i look at it is that it is cheating plain and simple.

Spending money you don't have to acheive success at the expense of other clubs who are trying to balance the books whilst still being competitive on the park.

This isn't the 1st time Dundee have been guilty of this. I have a certain degree of sympathy for the fans although i do have 2 Dundee supporting mates who are always bleating on about how they are being picked on. Theyaren't being picked on they tried to live outwith their means, they didn't acheive the success they hoped for this season, a rich businessman pulled out and they were left with an unsustainable debt, the people i feel really sorry or are the small businesses who are losing out on vast sums of cash here.

I just can't wait for the day it happens to a really big club or 2, then football might get a sense of perspective back.

[truehibernian]

To be fair Dundee are still not out of the mirky woods.

They still have to find the money to pay back the creditors, regardless of how much in the pound. They also now have to cut their cloth accordingly having been twice bitten. Assuming they survive this season, they will still need to get rid of top earners like Harkins etc and then scrabble about the same kind of market as their competitors, or the lower Scottish divisions.

Good fanbase for a Division 1 club, however they simply don't have the finance these days to get back to where they once were. They will continue to struggle and toil IMHO.

Was the punishment correct.....I am torn between football sentimentality, not wanting to see a great Scottish club disappear, and the harsh truth that their actions have seen people at the club and in the community lose jobs, money and livelihood.......difficult one. Just goes to show how well run a club we are at the end of the day.

[ancienthibby]

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The way i look at it is that it is cheating plain and simple.

Welcome to the real world.

Spending money you don't have to acheive success at the expense of other clubs who are trying to balance the books whilst still being competitive on the park.

Is what many companies (other than footy) do anyway!!

This isn't the 1st time Dundee have been guilty of this. I have a certain degree of sympathy for the fans although i do have 2 Dundee supporting mates who are always bleating on about how they are being picked on. Theyaren't being picked on they tried to live outwith their means, they didn't acheive the success they hoped for this season, a rich businessman pulled out and they were left with an unsustainable debt, the people i feel really sorry or are the small businesses who are losing out on vast sums of cash here.

Is always the case - capitalism rules!!

I just can't wait for the day it happens to a really big club or 2, then football might get a sense of perspective back.

Yams, maybe??

[Kaiser1962]

While "administration" is designed to protect a company from its creditors for a short term period while its cash flow is restricted it is increasingly being used (by football clubs in particular) as a means of dumping debt and shafting other businesses. It is tool that is, quite legally, regularly used by the reckless, ****less and clueless to hump their fellow man up the arse while walking away laughing with little or no consequences.

A firm that is owed £600 byDundee FC for services/goods provided honestly and in good faith will now recieve reimbursement of £36.

Why did creditors vote for this?

They have little choice as its made crystal clear to them that its £36 now or, more likely £3.60 in two years time. And Dundee continue on moaning about their 25 point penalty.

It is cheating, of opponents, suppliers and taxpayers, as well as abusing the spirit of the Law, which was drawn up to protect business's at a time when they are vulnerable, and is being exploited for selfish gain.

Sadly while football does not punish such profligacy, or reward responsible, prudent and honest management then the practice will continue unabated.

[Kaiser1962]

The swear filter dosent like the word ****less which is a perfectly legitimate word? Bizarre.

Thats f-e-c-k-l-e-s-s....cos that didnt get through either. !!

[ancient hibee]

Who are their biggest creditors?You and me guys,you and me.

[ancienthibby]

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While "administration" is designed to protect a company from its creditors for a short term period while its cash flow is restricted it is increasingly being used (by football clubs in particular) as a means of dumping debt and shafting other businesses. It is tool that is, quite legally, regularly used by the reckless, ****less and clueless to hump their fellow man up the arse while walking away laughing with little or no consequences.

A firm that is owed £600 byDundee FC for services/goods provided honestly and in good faith will now recieve reimbursement of £36.

Why did creditors vote for this?

They have little choice as its made crystal clear to them that its £36 now or, more likely £3.60 in two years time. And Dundee continue on moaning about their 25 point penalty.

It is cheating, of opponents, suppliers and taxpayers, as well as abusing the spirit of the Law, which was drawn up to protect business's at a time when they are vulnerable, and is being exploited for selfish gain.

Sadly while football does not punish such profligacy, or reward responsible, prudent and honest management then the practice will continue unabated.

Because if they didn't, they would not have received even the £36!!

[Kaiser1962]

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Because if they didn't, they would not have received even the £36!!

I think I said that in the next line

Still scandalous that they have to accept this though.

[Mixu62]

When can we expect to see Hibs awarded 25 points for financial prudence?

[Kaiser1962]

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When can we expect to see Hibs awarded 25 points for financial prudence?

Or clubs like Hamilton or St.Mirren for that matter who along with us occupy the three bottom places.

Compare these three with the season on season figures (and debts) of Aberdeen, Kilmarnock, Dundee Utd, Hearts or even Rangers.

[crash]

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Dundee's creditors have accepted 6p in the pound.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...ee/9390813.stm

If I read that correctly then Dundee racked up debt of £2.3m and only end up repaying c.£138k. That cannot be right - a 25 point penalty probably still leaves them in Div 1 next year. They should have been forced down a league or two - it may still happen depending on how closely the SFL choose to look at it.

Surely the creditors could force the sale of the ground?

[Alfred E Newman]

The whole administration racket is just legalised theft. Whether its a football club spending money like water or a dodgy building firm its a disgrace. Way down the chain of crediters there are hard working honest small time business men and women getting shafted by these hoods.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Surely the creditors could force the sale of the ground?

If they did that, who would benefit?

The bank, who would probably have a charge over the ground, would get first dibs. And there would be FA left for the rest of the creditors.

[crash]

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If they did that, who would benefit?

The bank, who would probably have a charge over the ground, would get first dibs. And there would be FA left for the rest of the creditors.

How come? The debt was only 2.3M. Dundee had a plan to sell off some land before to finance a new stand.

[SouthamptonHibs]

Dundee should have ben punted to the 3rd division and had all there assets taken fom them (up to the value of there debt)!
It's the 2nd time in less than 10 years that they've been in this position, there over spending season after season living well beyond there means...

If Dundee want to survive they should base there club round income from 2,500 fans and what ever sponsorship money they get...

Have no sympathy for them...i defo think they've played a blinder here, they'll be debt free again and still in Div 1, well done the SFA for setting an example tut tut

[ScottB]

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While "administration" is designed to protect a company from its creditors for a short term period while its cash flow is restricted it is increasingly being used (by football clubs in particular) as a means of dumping debt and shafting other businesses. It is tool that is, quite legally, regularly used by the reckless, ****less and clueless to hump their fellow man up the arse while walking away laughing with little or no consequences.

A firm that is owed £600 byDundee FC for services/goods provided honestly and in good faith will now recieve reimbursement of £36.

Why did creditors vote for this?

They have little choice as its made crystal clear to them that its £36 now or, more likely £3.60 in two years time. And Dundee continue on moaning about their 25 point penalty.

It is cheating, of opponents, suppliers and taxpayers, as well as abusing the spirit of the Law, which was drawn up to protect business's at a time when they are vulnerable, and is being exploited for selfish gain.

Sadly while football does not punish such profligacy, or reward responsible, prudent and honest management then the practice will continue unabated.

Totally agree 100%

Clubs that willfully choose to spend themselves into oblivion, ignore their tax commitments and the like, as Dundee did, should be expelled from the league.

It may sound harsh, but what in the current set up is a punishment exactly? A few points off here and there? Dundee have done this TWICE now, which surely proves the current system is not enough of a deterrent.

The system should also reward clubs that make the effort to be responsible, the only way to do that is to punish those who cross the line and punish them hard.

[FifeeHibee]

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When can we expect to see Hibs awarded 25 points for financial prudence?

A worthy suggestion, but over in Smellsville, Gorgie...

...the Jambos will think they're only £1.8million in debt!

[The Falcon]

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If they did that, who would benefit?

The bank, who would probably have a charge over the ground, would get first dibs. And there would be FA left for the rest of the creditors.

Did they not do that the last time? Is it not already owned by one of the Dundee Utd, directors?

[The Falcon]

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Who are their biggest creditors?You and me guys,you and me.

100% correct that man

[CropleyWasGod]

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Did they not do that the last time? Is it not already owned by one of the Dundee Utd, directors?

Think you're right.

So... there's the answer as to why they couldn't sell the ground.

[Mixu62]

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A worthy suggestion, but over in Smellsville, Gorgie...

...the Jambos will think they're only £1.8million in debt!

Yes, apparently they "owe the money to themselves". So why do they charge themselves intrest?