Where are we going as a team/club?

[hibeerealist]

Can ANYONE tell me whats changed since JH was booted, cause I must be missing it? I KNOW CC can't bring in any new players until January, but we are STILL playing the same way as under JH, we are STILL the soft touches of the league in terms of our defence and very few of these players (playing regulary) strike me as playing for the cause or manager!!!
CC is setting his teams up same way with VERY SAME personnel so what has the new manager brought to the table? I agree with the guys who say "he is just in the door give him a chance" but a new manager normally gives the struggling team a lift over the short term, Ipox apart, I can't see it.
ICT and Motherwell are BOTH way ahead in the league despite a much lower player budget. Their success is not down to far better players than HFC has, they are simply better organised, playing for each other with a great team spirit and HARD WORK - that, I am afraid, is instilled/coached by the management team and although our guys (management) can only wee with winkle they have, I am NOT seeing any real improvement anywhere in the team.

CC has the fans, and presumably the board, on his side so he can afford to take a flyer with the odd youngster, WHY is he not doing this? Are any of the younger players going to get a shout with this guy?

Losing FIVE of first eight games is only a continuation of JH's record ad I for one am very concerned at CC's reluctance to shake this group of muppets up!!

[Dunbar Hibee]

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Can ANYONE tell me whats changed since JH was booted, cause I must be missing it? I KNOW CC can't bring in any new players until January, but we are STILL playing the same way as under JH, we are STILL the soft touches of the league in terms of our defence and very few of these players (playing regulary) strike me as playing for the cause or manager!!!
CC is setting his teams up same way with VERY SAME personnel so what has the new manager brought to the table? I agree with the guys who say "he is just in the door give him a chance" but a new manager normally gives the struggling team a lift over the short term, Ipox apart, I can't see it.
ICT and Motherwell are BOTH way ahead in the league despite a much lower player budget. Their success is not down to far better players than HFC has, they are simply better organised, playing for each other with a great team spirit and HARD WORK - that, I am afraid, is instilled/coached by the management team and although our guys (management) can only wee with winkle they have, I am NOT seeing any real improvement anywhere in the team.

CC has the fans, and presumably the board, on his side so he can afford to take a flyer with the odd youngster, WHY is he not doing this? Are any of the younger players going to get a shout with this guy?

Losing FIVE of first eight games is only a continuation of JH's record ad I for one am very concerned at CC's reluctance to shake this group of muppets up!!

Fact of it is CC has a ***** squad, full of players who don't play for the shirt or are simply not good enough. This will only change if CC is allowed some money to get this squad sorted..If not we are in trouble.

[GreenCastle]

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Can ANYONE tell me whats changed since JH was booted, cause I must be missing it? I KNOW CC can't bring in any new players until January, but we are STILL playing the same way as under JH, we are STILL the soft touches of the league in terms of our defence and very few of these players (playing regulary) strike me as playing for the cause or manager!!!
CC is setting his teams up same way with VERY SAME personnel so what has the new manager brought to the table? I agree with the guys who say "he is just in the door give him a chance" but a new manager normally gives the struggling team a lift over the short term, Ipox apart, I can't see it.
ICT and Motherwell are BOTH way ahead in the league despite a much lower player budget. Their success is not down to far better players than HFC has, they are simply better organised, playing for each other with a great team spirit and HARD WORK - that, I am afraid, is instilled/coached by the management team and although our guys (management) can only wee with winkle they have, I am NOT seeing any real improvement anywhere in the team.

CC has the fans, and presumably the board, on his side so he can afford to take a flyer with the odd youngster, WHY is he not doing this? Are any of the younger players going to get a shout with this guy?

Losing FIVE of first eight games is only a continuation of JH's record ad I for one am very concerned at CC's reluctance to shake this group of muppets up!!

Well put

Everyone keeps saying...

"wait till the January transfer window" - history shows nothing really happens in the transfer market at this time of year.

"wait till summer for the clear out" - will it be too late then and the clear out is forced - if we get relegated ?

"CC knows what he is doing" - well if this is the case - is he is putting the best of a bad bunch out each week and doesn't think the younger players are any good ?

If he doesn't think any of the youngsters are any good then that is worrying - what's happening with the youth teams ?

Thinking back to the Bobby Williamson days - he was forced to play the youngsters - as a result - they were backed by the fans and we got Brown, Thompson etc come through the ranks.

If CC plays the youngsters then surely they will be hungry - the fans will give them more time and it might be more exciting to go and watch than route one long ball we are playing right now.

[francobaresi]

Answering directly to the question my answer is - nowhere fast!
Since I started supporting Hibs I have had no expectations to win anything barring the odd league cup. We haven't competed for anything in my supporting lifetime. I support Hibs not for the football but for the fact that once upon a time we used to be a great football team & one day just one day maybe... Now we are just a squad of football players who kick a ball around a park on a Saturday afternoon. No passion, no soul, lifeless & mediocre...
Unfortunately I can't see anything changing for the next 20 years or so.... But I'll still go, still moan & still dream that maybe one day we can find a team that want to play for Hibernian FC...

ggtth

[Andy74]

Hibs.net in the main seems to have changed its collective tune from the argument that we have good players but a manager who has no clue about formations, tactics, or how to deal with players. That was the argument for sacking Hughes and it was all supposed to change with some better tactics and use of players.

Now the facts seem to be that we actually have very poor players and the manager is just to bide his time until January or the summer.

Sorry, but that doesn't really cut it.

We are playing the same way, with the same sorts of tactics and formations and the same results. We even have CC saying the same things after games as Hughes did. They seem to make sense to some people more tough which is strange.

I back CC totally and in the long run I'm sure he will bring better players in.

I'm just fairly sure that Hughes will have done the same thing. I'm also sure Hughes would have been looking forward to getting Duffy and Zemmama back as we are clearly very short up front.

So, for me, nothing has been achieved by changing manager.

The arguments about tactics, formations, playing Riordan midfield, playing Wotherspoon in the wrong position, not playing Galbraith, they have all been shown to not be the problems after all.

[greenlex]

The fact is CC still has to pick from the same squad. There will be a couple in January to help and we will not be relegated.
It was important to change the manager when we did to give CC time to assess the squad properly and he has done this. There are players that have been told they have no future and others that have been offered new contracts.
The season has all been written off by everyone from the board down and it will be all systems go come the seasons end.
In short we needed to go backwards to regroup before moving onwards and upwards. Patience is the watchword but as Hibbys we are in short supply of that. We have suffered for a wee while now and want relative success now as we deserve it.

[Andy74]

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The fact is CC still has to pick from the same squad. There will be a couple in January to help and we will not be relegated.
It was important to change the manager when we did to give CC time to assess the squad properly and he has done this. There are players that have been told they have no future and others that have been offered new contracts.
The season has all been written off by everyone from the board down and it will be all systems go come the seasons end.
In short we needed to go backwards to regroup before moving onwards and upwards. Patience is the watchword but as Hibbys we are in short supply of that. We have suffered for a wee while now and want relative success now as we deserve it.

I'm interested as to why it was important to have made the change and have someone else assess the squad?

What have the last few weeks proved about what the last guy was doing wrong?

[greenlex]

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Hibs.net in the main seems to have changed its collective tune from the argument that we have good players but a manager who has no clue about formations, tactics, or how to deal with players. That was the argument for sacking Hughes and it was all supposed to change with some better tactics and use of players.

Now the facts seem to be that we actually have very poor players and the manager is just to bide his time until January or the summer.

Sorry, but that doesn't really cut it.

We are playing the same way, with the same sorts of tactics and formations and the same results. We even have CC saying the same things after games as Hughes did. They seem to make sense to some people more tough which is strange.

I back CC totally and in the long run I'm sure he will bring better players in.

I'm just fairly sure that Hughes will have done the same thing. I'm also sure Hughes would have been looking forward to getting Duffy and Zemmama back as we are clearly very short up front.

So, for me, nothing has been achieved by changing manager.

The arguments about tactics, formations, playing Riordan midfield, playing Wotherspoon in the wrong position, not playing Galbraith, they have all been shown to not be the problems after all.

Disagree Andy most of the first team squad are Hughes signings. The clear out in the summer could well take place and be replaced with players of similar ability. De Graff? Harte? both didnt come cheap and have been hugely disappointing. Grounds has been no more than ok. Who knows if Duffy will be any better. Hughes had to go IMO

[greenlex]

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I'm interested as to why it was important to have made the change and have someone else assess the squad?

What have the last few weeks proved about what the last guy was doing wrong?

See above. Headline signings that have disappointed. Add Dickoh who is a marginal improvement. We would IMO be in just the sameor arguably better position with the old guard.

[The Silver Fox]

As a club, Hibs have got it more right than most teams in Scotland. In terms of a stadium and training facilities they are up there with the best.

Regarding the team, apart from four or five, they are not good enough and need improving. It doesn't necessarily mean spend loads just get better in as the ones going out shortly will just go bringing in no money at all.

[yekimevol]

What has changed ???
The club has brought in a strong assistant manager in adams. Who was a manager in his own right at county. This is a statement of intent that the club is going to have the faith in this management team. The club has the stadium and the training facilities in place to take us back to glory, now there are no other projects bar the squad to improve. So there will be some improvements this window but the “new” squad will be create in august window. Don’t forget he has a idea of what he will be seeing from the returning players (that return from loan) because most have been training with the squad a few days a week. So you might see the likes of byrne and booth in the playing squad.

As far as current tactics go and the way we are playing. Calderwood has seen that we were weak in the midfield so brought murray back into the squad. Also the squad now attemps to get the ball wide and get balls into the box (witch is not a great idea without a out in out targetman).

[soproni1]

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Hibs.net in the main seems to have changed its collective tune from the argument that we have good players but a manager who has no clue about formations, tactics, or how to deal with players. That was the argument for sacking Hughes and it was all supposed to change with some better tactics and use of players.

Now the facts seem to be that we actually have very poor players and the manager is just to bide his time until January or the summer.

Sorry, but that doesn't really cut it.

We are playing the same way, with the same sorts of tactics and formations and the same results. We even have CC saying the same things after games as Hughes did. They seem to make sense to some people more tough which is strange.

I back CC totally and in the long run I'm sure he will bring better players in.

I'm just fairly sure that Hughes will have done the same thing. I'm also sure Hughes would have been looking forward to getting Duffy and Zemmama back as we are clearly very short up front.

So, for me, nothing has been achieved by changing manager.

The arguments about tactics, formations, playing Riordan midfield, playing Wotherspoon in the wrong position, not playing Galbraith, they have all been shown to not be the problems after all.

Completely agree - The spine of the team (Brown, Bamba, Miller, Riordan) is there but out of the players around them, there are very few who have had more than a handful of decent, solid games.

I am of the belief that if we can consolidate and stay up this year (whilst possibly blooding Byrne, Moyes, Booth etc), get the above players signed up then CC will have an idea of what kind of player is required by the league and also, more importantly, by our club.

We just have to hope he is given the backing which he will clearly need

[Part/Time Supporter]

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Hibs.net in the main seems to have changed its collective tune from the argument that we have good players but a manager who has no clue about formations, tactics, or how to deal with players. That was the argument for sacking Hughes and it was all supposed to change with some better tactics and use of players.

Now the facts seem to be that we actually have very poor players and the manager is just to bide his time until January or the summer.

Sorry, but that doesn't really cut it.

We are playing the same way, with the same sorts of tactics and formations and the same results. We even have CC saying the same things after games as Hughes did. They seem to make sense to some people more tough which is strange.

I back CC totally and in the long run I'm sure he will bring better players in.

I'm just fairly sure that Hughes will have done the same thing. I'm also sure Hughes would have been looking forward to getting Duffy and Zemmama back as we are clearly very short up front.

So, for me, nothing has been achieved by changing manager.

The arguments about tactics, formations, playing Riordan midfield, playing Wotherspoon in the wrong position, not playing Galbraith, they have all been shown to not be the problems after all.

Because Hughes had shown little to suggest that he would have made improvements to the squad when the opportunity arose. Hart and de Graaf were his two big signings this summer and they have both pretty much bombed.

[Perspective]

As far as I can see, we are a club who sell players to cover operating losses. Now all our sellable 'assets' - Bamba, potentially Miller, Riordan and Zemmama - are all out of contract. That's bad planning.

We have a squad assembled with no hint of long-term planning - bloated, with a lack of options in key positions across the team. Again, bad planning.

We've signed and released a stupidly high number of players in recent years. In addition, we haven't built on the success of the youth structure and there's not much coming through the ranks at present.

It's all a vicious circle and the bottom line is it means there won't be much in the way of funds to adequately replace 16-odd players who are out of contract.

Despite all that we do have great facilities (even if the running costs will be a drain on finances) and the potential is there. What we do need is someone to drag the club forward by the scruff of the neck or it will all have been for nothing.

From my point of view, we need a Director of Football-type to oversee the Academy, scouting and player recruitment. It can't be left to managers to bring in/release players given how often we change the man in charge. It's a crucial appointment and has to be the right guy. Someone like George Adams may fit the bill.

Aside from that, I think Rod Petrie (who has done a lot of good things) has to take a step back and allow managers to manage with a bit more free rein. It's too much of a coincidence that Collins, Mixu and Hughes all left with similar gripes.

[Part/Time Supporter]

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As far as I can see, we are a club who sell players to cover operating losses. Now all our sellable 'assets' - Bamba, potentially Miller, Riordan and Zemmama - are all out of contract. That's bad planning.

We have a squad assembled with no hint of long-term planning - bloated, with a lack of options in key positions across the team. Again, bad planning.

We've signed and released a stupidly high number of players in recent years. In addition, we haven't built on the success of the youth structure and there's not much coming through the ranks at present.

It's all a vicious circle and the bottom line is it means there won't be much in the way of funds to adequately replace 16-odd players who are out of contract.

Despite all that we do have great facilities (even if the running costs will be a drain on finances) and the potential is there. What we do need is someone to drag the club forward by the scruff of the neck or it will all have been for nothing.

From my point of view, we need a Director of Football-type to oversee the Academy, scouting and player recruitment. It can't be left to managers to bring in/release players given how often we change the man in charge. It's a crucial appointment and has to be the right guy. Someone like George Adams may fit the bill.

Aside from that, I think Rod Petrie (who has done a lot of good things) has to take a step back and allow managers to manage with a bit more free rein. It's too much of a coincidence that Collins, Mixu and Hughes all left with similar gripes.

I think we are now seeing the full effect of the loss of John Park. Not as much in terms of the youth development, but more in the identifying of players. In the three seasons started with Mowbray as manager, the success / failure ratio in signings was pretty high - there was the odd dud (ie Zibi or Konte), but there were far more remarkable successes relative to the amount of wages / fees involved. Since 2007, Hibs have been spending far more on wages and fees than before, but have been signing a much lower calibre of player.

[Cropley10]

Whilst results and performances have been disappointing under CC, a continuation of the JH tenure, by and large, I think it's now apparent that our long-term strategy has been flawed.

I think CC a decent manager alright - I think he and Adams are what we need, but what you can now tell without fear of contradiction is that we have an absolutely desperate first team squad; with weaknesses in every key position.

This isn't a new problem, we've sold quality and replaced them with dross, year after year. Doesn't matter what business you're in - eventually that catches up with you and it's well and truly caught up with us.

At the risk of going over old ground - even taking Scott Brown out of the equation - compare the CIS team of 07 with this one and tell me who'd get into that team from this side? And who we'd take from that team?

I've never bought this idea that so many players being out of contract at once was part of some master plan. That's a nonsense.

Hughes had to go because of his home record, in signings, player development, performances and post match interviews.

We've backed this management team - but there are too many players of insufficient quality, ability and desire in that team. Mr Petrie and Mr Hughes have to shoulder the blame for that, no question.

[Perspective]

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I think we are now seeing the full effect of the loss of John Park. Not as much in terms of the youth development, but more in the identifying of players. In the three seasons started with Mowbray as manager, the success / failure ratio in signings was pretty high - there was the odd dud (ie Zibi or Konte), but there were far more remarkable successes relative to the amount of wages / fees involved. Since 2007, Hibs have been spending far more on wages and fees than before, but have been signing a much lower calibre of player.

Don't know how much John Park had to do with identifying guys (outwith the ones I've read about like Fletcher, Benji, Zemmama etc) so couldn't say for certain on him.

But there has to be a real emphasis on scouting. It's the only way a club like ours can continue to grow. So when you have an established first-team player you can afford to sell him at the right time, for the right price because you have planned for a Callum Booth or someone to be there to step in.

Romanov has done a lot of crazy, stupid things at Hearts. But one thing Hearts have done well is identify young players, develop them and sell them on. Aside from guys they've brought through their own system, how much did they pay for Templeton? And how much are they going to be able to sell him for?

Identify, sign, develop, sell is the only way we can improve (hopefully with a Scottish Cup thrown into the mix).

Not convinced the people at boardroom have the expertise or ambition to push this through but hopefully I'm wrong.

[Cropley10]

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I think we are now seeing the full effect of the loss of John Park. Not as much in terms of the youth development, but more in the identifying of players. In the three seasons started with Mowbray as manager, the success / failure ratio in signings was pretty high - there was the odd dud (ie Zibi or Konte), but there were far more remarkable successes relative to the amount of wages / fees involved. Since 2007, Hibs have been spending far more on wages and fees than before, but have been signing a much lower calibre of player.

- and who would need to shoulder the blame for this?

[Part/Time Supporter]

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Don't know how much John Park had to do with identifying guys (outwith the ones I've read about like Fletcher, Benji, Zemmama etc) so couldn't say for certain on him.

But there has to be a real emphasis on scouting. It's the only way a club like ours can continue to grow. So when you have an established first-team player you can afford to sell him at the right time, for the right price because you have planned for a Callum Booth or someone to be there to step in.

Romanov has done a lot of crazy, stupid things at Hearts. But one thing Hearts have done well is identify young players, develop them and sell them on. Aside from guys they've brought through their own system, how much did they pay for Templeton? And how much are they going to be able to sell him for?

Identify, sign, develop, sell is the only way we can improve (hopefully with a Scottish Cup thrown into the mix).

Not convinced the people at boardroom have the expertise or ambition to push this through but hopefully I'm wrong.

Not 100% convinced by that. They've also *****ed a lot of money on foreign "prospects" (eg Copil, Kostadinov) who never amounted to anything. The players who they have sold for big £££ (Berra, Gordon and Hartley) were already there before Romanov.

[Perspective]

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Not 100% convinced by that. They've also *****ed a lot of money on foreign "prospects" (eg Copil, Kostadinov) who never amounted to anything. The players who they have sold for big £££ (Berra, Gordon and Hartley) were already there before Romanov.

I agree, but I think they've learned from that.

Their player drive now seems to be focused in Scotland or in regions like Scandinavia, where there isn't such a big cultural or footballing difference from over here.

And obviously the better the scouting the less chance you have of expensive mistakes, though you'll never remove that from something that isn't an exact science.

Just annoys me that we've frittered away so much money that took years to build up and what have we been left with? As bad a team as I've seen at Hibs. Just want us to be a bit more switched on at signing guys like Morgaro Gomis, Andy Webster, Danny Swanson, David Templeton, Ryan Flynn etc before they're outwith our grasp.

[Part/Time Supporter]

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I agree, but I think they've learned from that.

Their player drive now seems to be focused in Scotland or in regions like Scandinavia, where there isn't such a big cultural or footballing difference from over here.

And obviously the better the scouting the less chance you have of expensive mistakes, though you'll never remove that from something that isn't an exact science.

Just annoys me that we've frittered away so much money that took years to build up and what have we been left with? As bad a team as I've seen at Hibs. Just want us to be a bit more switched on at signing guys like Morgaro Gomis, Andy Webster, Danny Swanson, David Templeton, Ryan Flynn etc before they're outwith our grasp.

Add Murray Davidson to that list. Or any of the other (more than decent) young players at Livi (just down the road FFS!) who were available for tuppence ha'penny when they melted down.

[Perspective]

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Add Murray Davidson to that list. Or any of the other (more than decent) young players at Livi (just down the road FFS!) who were available for tuppence ha'penny when they melted down.

Yup, Davidson's another perfect example. Decent technique, real hunger and a goal threat. Exactly the sort our midfield is missing.

[RickyS]

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I agree, but I think they've learned from that.

Their player drive now seems to be focused in Scotland or in regions like Scandinavia, where there isn't such a big cultural or footballing difference from over here.

And obviously the better the scouting the less chance you have of expensive mistakes, though you'll never remove that from something that isn't an exact science.

Just annoys me that we've frittered away so much money that took years to build up and what have we been left with? As bad a team as I've seen at Hibs. Just want us to be a bit more switched on at signing guys like Morgaro Gomis, Andy Webster, Danny Swanson, David Templeton, Ryan Flynn etc before they're outwith our grasp.

there is hope for him yet from what I hear

[Beefster]

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Hibs.net in the main seems to have changed its collective tune from the argument that we have good players but a manager who has no clue about formations, tactics, or how to deal with players. That was the argument for sacking Hughes and it was all supposed to change with some better tactics and use of players.

Now the facts seem to be that we actually have very poor players and the manager is just to bide his time until January or the summer.

Sorry, but that doesn't really cut it.

We are playing the same way, with the same sorts of tactics and formations and the same results. We even have CC saying the same things after games as Hughes did. They seem to make sense to some people more tough which is strange.

I back CC totally and in the long run I'm sure he will bring better players in.

I'm just fairly sure that Hughes will have done the same thing. I'm also sure Hughes would have been looking forward to getting Duffy and Zemmama back as we are clearly very short up front.

So, for me, nothing has been achieved by changing manager.

The arguments about tactics, formations, playing Riordan midfield, playing Wotherspoon in the wrong position, not playing Galbraith, they have all been shown to not be the problems after all.

Ultimately, nothing may change by changing manager. Calderwood may turn out to be useless.

The difference is Hughes had already proven himself to be useless. He got the summer window to improve the first half of 2010's form and made the square root of zero difference.

Hughes was in charge for 10 games this season - 1 win, 2 draws and 7 losses. Calderwood's been in charge for 8 games - 2 wins, 1 draw and 5 losses. As it stands, Calderwood has made a minor improvement.

[RickyS]

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Ultimately, nothing may change by changing manager. Calderwood may turn out to be useless.

The difference is Hughes had already proven himself to be useless. He got the summer window to improve the first half of 2010's form and made the square root of zero difference.

Hughes was in charge for 10 games this season - 1 win, 2 draws and 7 losses. Calderwood's been in charge for 8 games - 2 wins, 1 draw and 5 losses. As it stands, Calderwood has made a minor improvement.

[King Paddy]

Appointing a new manager was what most of us wanted as Yogi had seemingly lost the plot. Who do we get CC, which did not fill me with any great excitment. OK you normally get a reaction with a few decent results, this has not happened and as a result we are now in a relegation dogfight. How he can pick players who have no pace like Edward Deslow and tortoise Hart beggars belief. Only hope he rectifies these problems before to long.

[Kato]

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I'm interested as to why it was important to have made the change and have someone else assess the squad?

What have the last few weeks proved about what the last guy was doing wrong?

Signing most the dross we have to get rid of, the loss of confidence amongst certain players and the total collapse of team spirit.

[IWasThere2016]

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Because Hughes had shown little to suggest that he would have made improvements to the squad when the opportunity arose. Hart and de Graaf were his two big signings this summer and they have both pretty much bombed.

AND the worst home record in our history. Not to mention the insults to the support and the havering utter pish! Unbelievable that there are still apologists for Yogi! Unbelieveable!

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

To answer the question in the thread title - particularly with regard to on the park at least - the answer has to be backwards and I doubt much will change after Jan. A big few months for the club after the window closes and it may not be too pleasant!

[ekhibee]

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Whilst results and performances have been disappointing under CC, a continuation of the JH tenure, by and large, I think it's now apparent that our long-term strategy has been flawed.

I think CC a decent manager alright - I think he and Adams are what we need, but what you can now tell without fear of contradiction is that we have an absolutely desperate first team squad; with weaknesses in every key position.

This isn't a new problem, we've sold quality and replaced them with dross, year after year. Doesn't matter what business you're in - eventually that catches up with you and it's well and truly caught up with us.

At the risk of going over old ground - even taking Scott Brown out of the equation - compare the CIS team of 07 with this one and tell me who'd get into that team from this side? And who we'd take from that team?

I've never bought this idea that so many players being out of contract at once was part of some master plan. That's a nonsense.

Hughes had to go because of his home record, in signings, player development, performances and post match interviews.

We've backed this management team - but there are too many players of insufficient quality, ability and desire in that team. Mr Petrie and Mr Hughes have to shoulder the blame for that, no question.

Excellent post.