Mcleish report

[down the slope]

I t looks like Henry is going down the route of the rest of the muppets ,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/9291848.stm

Do they never ever listen to what the fans want ?, if this goes ahead then that's it for me.

[bingo70]

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I t looks like Henry is going down the route of the rest of the muppets ,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/9291848.stm

Do they never ever listen to what the fans want ?, if this goes ahead then that's it for me.

I agree that i'd prefer to play each other twice a season, however i don't think they're doing this just to piss the fans off so maybe after looking into it thats not viable?

Maybe the TV companies insist on four old firm and edinburgh derbies a season? or maybe the clubs rely on playing the old firm so many times? Maybe the likes of hibs and hearts said they would prefer the bigger games against each other and the old firm instead of playing the likes of Dundee, Partick and Dunfermline?

Whatever the reason, i hope they come out and are honest behind the reasons of going back to a 10 team league when its so unpopular but i won't be holding my breath.

[Jim44]

I was interested to hear, in a pre 6PM news advert that they would be reporting on ' what they would like to hear' in the second McLeish report. I thought it was a strange thing to say. They're one big happy Mafia family.

[Beefster]

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I t looks like Henry is going down the route of the rest of the muppets ,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/9291848.stm

Do they never ever listen to what the fans want ?, if this goes ahead then that's it for me.

What makes you think that the fans know what the best thing for Scottish Football, the clubs, the national team, youth development etc is?

McLeish has done an extensive review into the game so to write his findings off because of a headline seems fairly short-sighted.

[down the slope]

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What makes you think that the fans know what the best thing for Scottish Football, the clubs, the national team, youth development etc is?

McLeish has done an extensive review into the game so to write his findings off because of a headline seems fairly short-sighted.

Eh, we are the paying public, without us there is no league to reconstruct, to ignore the vast majority of fans views on this is utter contempt.

[Beefster]

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Eh, we are the paying public, without us there is no league to reconstruct, to ignore the vast majority of fans views on this is utter contempt.

How do you know that McLeish hasn't spoken to fans?

[Jim44]

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How do you know that McLeish hasn't spoken to fans?

How do you know he has? Going off topic for a minute, this reminds me of a great example of kid's logic. I was in a queue in a Pakistani corner shop when a kid of about seven asked the old guy for a KitKat. The shopkeeper gave the kid a five finger bar and and the kid said "I only wanted a wee one." Clearly annoyed, the old guy shouted back "How was I to know you wanted a wee one?" In a flash the kid asked "How did you know I wanted a big one?"

[brog]

I'm Hibs Net illiterate. Could someone please start a poll on league reconstruction? That way we may have a more accurate representation of Hibs fans' feelings which we could then ask RP to represent!

Personally I loathe the idea of 10 teams & I believe chairmen, including RP, are over influenced by the thought of 3 home games against OF & yams.

[blackpoolhibs]

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How do you know that McLeish hasn't spoken to fans?

I'm only guessing, so i don't know if this is correct or not, but my hunch is most non old firm fans want a league with more clubs. I also wonder what fans he will have talked to?

[Beefster]

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How do you know he has? Going off topic for a minute, this reminds me of a great example of kid's logic. I was in a queue in a Pakistani corner shop when a kid of about seven asked the old guy for a KitKat. The shopkeeper gave the kid a five finger bar and and the kid said "I only wanted a wee one." Clearly annoyed, the old guy shouted back "How was I to know you wanted a wee one?" In a flash the kid asked "How did you know I wanted a big one?"

I didn't say he had. I'm questioning the dismissal of his lengthy review because there's one thing in that that someone doesn't like. I'm not defending the review either because I don't know what's in it.

But saying that Scottish Football should be set up exactly how the fans want it is a bit like saying that governments should always bow to public pressure, which is patently nonsense.

[talking_wiss]

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Eh, we are the paying public, without us there is no league to reconstruct, to ignore the vast majority of fans views on this is utter contempt.

The proposals to me seem reasonable, I'm not sure how you can accuse this report of holding utter contempt for the fans???

A winter break = Good idea especially for the fans who will get to see more football when the days are longer and potentially warmer.

Regionalisation of the lower leagues = Surely makes great sense for the lower league clubs financially and more importantly for fans who wish to travel to games.

Reduction in Football Authorities = Can only be a good thing for the game with a reduction in bureaucracy and blazers running the game.

Playoffs and Relegation = The one up one down has often brought about a tedious end to the season for many fans if one club is cast adrift.

The crowds in Scottish football have been falling steadily for years and no doubt this is in correlation to what is IMO a product on the park that is getting worse by the season.

I don't understand why these suggestions would be the reason for fans turning their back on Scottish Football. And I can't believe for a minute that fans would be turning up in greater numbers watching a scottish league with 18/20 teams and where the bulk of teams find themselves in mid-table with little to play for by xmas.

[--------]

Personally, I think an SPL of two ten-team divisions without a late 'split' would be a major improvement, provided they have the guts to implement proper relegation/promotion rules.

I'd like to see play-offs involving at least 4 teams - top 2 of Div 2 and bottom 2 of Div 1, for example - so that there's a real possibility of movement up and down between divisions rather than just a cosmetic exercise of cutting the numbers in the SPL and calling everything by another name.

Two up, two down would be my choice, with financial protection for relegated teams and assistance for promoted teams. Same for those coming into SPL2 from the SFL. And spread the SPL TV money (such as it is) around a lot more fairly than at present.

IMO the problem in Scottish football is rooted in vested interests. The OF work away like stink to protect their hold on the trophies and the Champions' League. The mid-range SPL clubs (Hibs included) work away to make sure that their chances of relegation form the SPL are minimal. With only one up, one down relegation/promotion, this is relatively easy. But it also leaves a lot of well-run smaller clubs in the SFL with nowhere to go, so THEY work away to protect their 'senior' League status by keeping even better-run clubs in the Juniors out of the SFL...

Football's business, but it's also supposed to be a sport. It needs to open up the competition so that success on the field brings dividends, while at the same time introducing financial structures to prevent clubs running up huge debts and liabilities. IMO clubs who default on their financial obligations or fail to live within their means should face sanctions, and those sanctions should be applied in an even-handed, transparent manner. Not a case of one rule for the big teams and another for the wee ones.

Accounts should be in the League's hands at the end of the season. Failure to produce should mean relegation; repeated failure to produce should put the club's League place in serious question.

[Saorsa]

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I'm Hibs Net illiterate. Could someone please start a poll on league reconstruction? That way we may have a more accurate representation of Hibs fans' feelings which we could then ask RP to represent!

Personally I loathe the idea of 10 teams & I believe chairmen, including RP, are over influenced by the thought of 3 home games against OF & yams.

Here's one done not long ago, vast majority in favour of extending the league, not a single vote for a ten team league

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?1...reconstruction

[bingo70]

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I'm Hibs Net illiterate. Could someone please start a poll on league reconstruction? That way we may have a more accurate representation of Hibs fans' feelings which we could then ask RP to represent!

Personally I loathe the idea of 10 teams & I believe chairmen, including RP, are over influenced by the thought of 3 home games against OF & yams.

Why do you think that is though? As much as we can turn our noses up at being influenced by money unfortuntely we need it, most clubs are losing money as it is so to lose ticket and TV revenue isn't going to improve the product, it's only going to have a negative effect on the quality that teams can afford and the spl is already pish.

As i said earlier in an ideal world i'd prefer to only play teams twice, however i just don't think it's an easy as a solution as some would believe.

[Beefster]

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Why do you think that is though? As much as we can turn our noses up at being influenced by money unfortuntely we need it, most clubs are losing money as it is so to lose ticket and TV revenue isn't going to improve the product, it's only going to have a negative effect on the quality that teams can afford and the spl is already pish.

As i said earlier in an ideal world i'd prefer to only play teams twice, however i just don't think it's an easy as a solution as some would believe.

You're spot on. The difference between 2 homes games against each of Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Aberdeen and Dundee United to one home game against them and one each against the likes of Dundee, Dunfermline, Partick Thistle, Raith Rovers and Falkirk could reastically be 30,000 paying customers - probably the equivalent of over £500k per annum.

[Ronaldo9]

At the end of the day the whole set up is geared up to favour the Old Firm. 11-1 majority is needed to implement any change. If the OF dont like the plans they wont happen. Since when was a 7-5 split not a majority?? Until this changes the cluns outside the OF with get royally shafted.

[truehibernian]

Have to say I think the report is reasonable and pretty much spot on.

Ten team league means games which are more meaningful, better gate revenue and income, better TV and sponsorship deals and also means an easier reintroduction of reserve league.

Second tier have something worth aiming for too.

Winter shutdown is good in theory, but unless luck is on our side, Scottish winters can be anywhere from November to February as we have seen and witnessed over the years. Summer football, which I think is mentioned (or starting the season earlier) is a must.

Never usually agree with him, but Jim Traynor came out with a very good idea/proposal that teams in both leagues should have a minimum commitment to youth development and youth football. Without that commitment they don't participate.

The lower leagues being constructed geographically is also an excellent move, and means that our smaller clubs can survive a bit better and maybe means the inclusion of clubs like Spartans and Edinburgh City.

All in all I think McLeish puts some common sense into the report IMHO. Scottish football whether we like it or not, needs the Old Firm to survive. Harsh but very true at this present time (unless they form a Euro League)

[degenerated]

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Scottish football whether we like it or not, needs the Old Firm to survive. Harsh but very true at this present time (unless they form a Euro League)

and as no-one else will take them, the old firm need the rest of us in order to survive. it's about time that the rest of the clubs took note of that!

[Keith_M]

Currently, Hibs have six category A games per season. The board aren't going to vote for anything that reduces that to three, thereby missing out on roughly 20,000 people through the gates per year.

The other clubs have four category A games, and so have the same motivation. It's easy to blame it all on the OF but I'm sure this is an across the board decision of chairmen.

So far, I've only read one manager's comment that he's happy with a 10 team league, but the football aspect won't affect a financial decision.

[Mikey]

Are people genuinely going to turn their back on Hibs because of the make up of the league?

[StevieC]

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Ten team league means games which are more meaningful

How?

Why is it more meaningful to play Dundee United 4 times than Dundee United twice and St Mirren twice?

IMO, the latter is more meaningful because you only get one shot at beating each team at each others grounds.

There's no doubt that there would be less money available from advertising and sponsorship, but if this was shared more equally then it wouldn't really affect the teams that would be more likely to find it an issue. Every team had to cut their cloth accordingly when we lost the last big TV deal so whats to stop every team doing the same for any new set up?

The original 10 team league was set up so that the big teams could get more money and it seems to me that the idea to revert back to this is once again based on money!

[StevieC]

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Are people genuinely going to turn their back on Hibs because of the make up of the league?

I honestly think they would Mikey.


I can't because I'm roped into a 3 year deal!

[down the slope]

We have tried a ten team league and it did not work, why should it work now ?. The league has been tinkered with since the seventies and can anyone honestly say that the standard of football on offer has improved ?, it may have been gash when we had the old eighteen team league but there was less pressure in some games and you could afford to play your youngsters as the threat of relegation was obviously a lot lower. One of the reasons the league was changed was that the standard of some teams was pretty low but with the advent of modern coaching there is no such thing any more as we have witnessed with the likes of Ross County need i say more. Can you honestly say that we would feel confident on beating the likes of Dundee Dunfermline Partick ?, voting for this might ensure we are playing them in a couple of seasons anyway !.

[degenerated]

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Are people genuinely going to turn their back on Hibs because of the make up of the league?

i probably woudn't but can understand why people might. the format of playing teams a minimum of 4 times a season is hardly inspiring especially when you are being asked to fork out near enough £400 for the priveledge and when you consider that this very format has already been tried, tested and cosigned to the dustbin of other nonsense ideas brought to us by the old firm sycophants ruining scottish football. with ten in the league and the prospect of perhaps 2 being relegated this is only going to lead to more negative football in what is possibly one of the dullest leagues i can think of in europe.
As long as clubs think more of the tv money than they do they do of the paying customer then there isnt really much hope. The idiots in charge of the game in this country and the greed of the clubs is killing the game, and it's not even a slow death anymore.
a 16 team league would allow clubs being promoted to flourish and theoretically for the teams that now covet 3rd place the fact they only have to play the old firm twice should help narrow that gap.
lets get back to playing games at 3pm on a saturday afternoon, playing teams a sensible amount times per season, cut our cloth to suit and tell the old firm and the tv companies to blow it oot their @rse, and i bet the number of punters coming through the gates increases dramatically.

[BEEJ]

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We have tried a ten team league and it did not work, why should it work now ?.

Have to agree with this. It was completely tedious playing the same teams again and again (and again if you drew them in a cup match). Even the players were bored beyond belief.

As for the financial advantages, whatever happened to the 14 team proposal with the top eight / bottom six split after two rounds of matches. That had all the means of preserving the benefits of an additional home OF fixture for the teams who finished in the top eight after 26 games.

Much prefer that concept. A league split is not ideal but the finances of the game in Scotland dictate that we need to have one.

The ten team league option will bore the pants of the paying punters, just as it did before. I detest the idea.

[Gatecrasher]

he recommends the merging of the SPL and Scottish Football League as a governing body

his other suggestions are an earlier start to the season and the regionalisation of the lower leagues.

A two-tier top flight with divisions of 10 would introduce a play-off system and spell the end for the current split, which sees the 12-team SPL divide in two for the final five fixtures.

OH Come on! Is that really the best you people can think off?
Fans are bored, the crowds are dropping off and the only thing that they are saying for scotlands top league is more of the same please!

We are about to play Kilmarnock for the 3rd time this season and its no even Christmas yet

A Premier League of 14 teams which would be more in tune with what the fans and spectators have been asking for but which would run the risk of some serious financial difficulties and a reduction in the current financial distribution going to the clubs,"

TBH the 14 team league sounded worse than the 10 team league IMO

100 pages long

.net has come up with better in a few posts

We are committed to change and we believe now is the time to act for the sake of the game at all levels, from grassroots to elite performance.

Prove it then ! all i see is the same pish over and over


that sums up my feelings, not impressed

[blackpoolhibs]

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Have to agree with this. It was completely tedious playing the same teams again and again (and again if you drew them in a cup match). Even the players were bored beyond belief.

As for the financial advantages, whatever happened to the 14 team proposal with the top eight / bottom six split after two rounds of matches. That had all the means of preserving the benefits of an additional home OF fixture for the teams who finished in the top eight after 26 games.

Much prefer that concept. A league split is not ideal but the finances of the game in Scotland dictate that we need to have one.

The ten team league option will bore the pants of the paying punters, just as it did before. I detest the idea.

Thats my opinion too, I'd love a 16 team league playing everyone twice, with the league cup played in sections. It seems thats not going to happen, and a 10 team league is on the way. As you say it bored the pants of us before, it did not work when we tried it the last time, whats changed now?

[hibs0666]

There are two ways you can think about change - customer-driven (which works) or process-driven (which normally fails).

I predict failure both to implement and to make any noticeable difference.

[500miles]

I wonder what is more tedious.

A ten team league with all 10 teams with something to play for for 3/4s of the season, or a 18 team league with 8 or 10 teams seasons being regularly over by Christmas?

Maybe the grass is not always greener.

[truehibernian]

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I wonder what is more tedious.

A ten team league with all 10 teams with something to play for for 3/4s of the season, or a 18 team league with 8 or 10 teams seasons being regularly over by Christmas?

Maybe the grass is not always greener.

That's my take on it.

They could of course also have looked at ticket pricing and making football a far more affordable day out for all walks of life. A season ticket in Germany is a third sometimes of what we pay here, same in La Liga. Yes they have TV revenue streams way above ours, but their stadiums are packed to the rafters week in week out. Has to be something for looking at reducing ticket prices all across Scotland. Chicken and egg I suppose