Dundee in administration (merged)

***SteveHFC*** · 05-10-2010 10:37 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...ee/9044022.stm

Dundee appear 99% certain to go into administration after the football club failed to pay players and staff outstanding wages on Tuesday.

***matty_f*** · 05-10-2010 10:58 PM

I really don't have any sympathy for them. Especially when you consider this bit:

However, the taxman could lose out entirely with the club owing about £1.6m to directors Melville, Bob Brannan and landlord John Bennett in soft loans.
The trio could push through a creditors voluntary arrangement, which would apply to all creditors, writing off the money due and forcing the club into administration.
With HMRC no longer having preferred creditor status, it would lose out on almost all of the money due to them.

So they spend more than they can afford to, bump the tax man, then can get out of it on the back of three of their own directors pulling a fast one.

**Sir David Gray** · 05-10-2010 11:04 PM

I have sympathy with their fans and the ordinary people who do the day-to-day work at Dundee who would be made redundant if they were to go to the wall but, other than that, I would have no problems with them going out of business.

It would hopefully act as a lesson to all other football clubs who might think about acting irresponsibly with their finances in the future.

**monktonharp** · 05-10-2010 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

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I have sympathy with their fans and the ordinary people who do the day-to-day work at Dundee who would be made redundant if they were to go to the wall but, other than that, I would have no problems with them going out of business.

It would hopefully act as a lesson to all other football clubs who might think about acting irresponsibly with their finances in the future.

likewise,I feel for their diehard fans,and the ones (older) that have seen the club's demise so much over the years. A once proud club, that won the league eight years or so later than the last time our club did that. but,more than half o' Dundee/Angus is now OF country,imo. nothin' like seeing a fat burd,shovin' a buggy doon whitfield wi' a bag o' messages while wearing her Rangers top.

**IWasThere2016** · 06-10-2010 07:05 AM

Shame but that's life - and as much as I have a soft spot for them - I do believe the SFL should cancel their registration.

**franco** · 06-10-2010 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by monktonharp

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likewise,I feel for their diehard fans,and the ones (older) that have seen the club's demise so much over the years. A once proud club, that won the league eight years or so later than the last time our club did that. but,more than half o' Dundee/Angus is now OF country,imo. nothin' like seeing a fat burd,shovin' a buggy doon whitfield wi' a bag o' messages while wearing her Rangers top.

spot on

**bighairyfaeleith** · 06-10-2010 07:12 AM

yep feel sorry for the fans but then where the fans complaining when the board were spending big to try and win the first division?

teams need to start to realise that foolish spending to buy success won't go unpunished.

**heretoday** · 06-10-2010 07:58 AM

Dundee will be ok. Somehow football clubs always survive, except Gretna.

***Stevie Reid*** · 06-10-2010 08:10 AM

Is there now a chance that a high earner like Griffiths will be released and become a free agent?

***easty*** · 06-10-2010 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Stevie Reid

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Is there now a chance that a high earner like Griffiths will be released and become a free agent?

No chance he'll become a free agent, they'll not be able to sell him for what they possibly could have in the summer but they'll look to get a bit of cash for him.

***Caversham Green*** · 06-10-2010 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by heretoday

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Dundee will be ok. Somehow football clubs always survive, except Gretna.

I reckon another one will go soon but it's unlikely to be Dundee because the other creditors can outvote HMRC for a CVA. Rangers, on the other hand owe most of their debt to the taxman and the Murray group can neither find a buyer nor afford to bail them out. No doubt the SFA would engineer some sort of rescue if that happened though.

***Stevie Reid*** · 06-10-2010 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by easty

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No chance he'll become a free agent, they'll not be able to sell him for what they possibly could have in the summer but they'll look to get a bit of cash for him.

Ideally, I'm sure they would - but if they can't afford to pay him until the transfer window opens, they're ****ed.

**Pretty Boy** · 06-10-2010 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

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I have sympathy with their fans and the ordinary people who do the day-to-day work at Dundee who would be made redundant if they were to go to the wall but, other than that, I would have no problems with them going out of business.

It would hopefully act as a lesson to all other football clubs who might think about acting irresponsibly with their finances in the future.

I always feel for the fans in these situations (we've been there ourselves) and the everyday workers. However it's about time a reasonably big club went out of business just to show footbaal club that this paying on the never never and speculate to accumulate strategies don't work and a sensible business plan is the only true way to run a football club these days.

**down-the-slope** · 06-10-2010 08:32 AM

In reply to it being said the directors 'could pull a fast one' and bump HMRC...hardly the case when they would need to write off the 1.6m they loaned the club in exchange for pennies they have left.

Main point was ....what with SFL do if they do go into admin...the precedent is relegation to 3rd like Livi...but one rule for the big boys...another for the wee guy applies at all levels and i expect a fudge

As they don't even own the ground they have no assets except player registrations (and it would ned special dispensation from SPL / UEFA. to realise cash from these now)..but in exchange they also have player contracts as liabilities...so liquidation is more likley than in other situations

***easty*** · 06-10-2010 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Stevie Reid

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Ideally, I'm sure they would - but if they can't afford to pay him until the transfer window opens, they're ****ed.

Once the administrators come in they'll do all they can to make sure they can hold on to him untill they find a buyer. I dont doubt a lot of staff will go but they'll have to hold onto any saleable assets in the hope of generating some money.

I dont think there will be a shortage of sides willing to pay them a pittance in a transfer fee (perhaps with his wages from now to January 1st as an additional fee) to take him at the next transfer window.

***Stevie Reid*** · 06-10-2010 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by easty

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Once the administrators come in they'll do all they can to make sure they can hold on to him untill they find a buyer. I dont doubt a lot of staff will go but they'll have to hold onto any saleable assets in the hope of generating some money.

I dont think there will be a shortage of sides willing to pay them a pittance in a transfer fee (perhaps with his wages from now to January 1st as an additional fee) to take him at the next transfer window.

I would agree that they would do all they could, and that a pittance is all they'll get for him - but if his basic wage over the next 3 months is say £15-20K, how are they gonna pay him with no money? Surely non payment is a breach of contract and LG would rather be a free agent and have a pick of more clubs than go without wages and depend on clubs willing to pay a fee for him in January.

I must add that my understanding of these financial aspects are limited, hence the further questions. I'm not doubting what you've told me thus far.

***Sylar*** · 06-10-2010 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by down-the-slope

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In reply to it being said the directors 'could pull a fast one' and bump HMRC...hardly the case when they would need to write off the 1.6m they loaned the club in exchange for pennies they have left.

Main point was ....what with SFL do if they do go into admin...the precedent is relegation to 3rd like Livi...but one rule for the big boys...another for the wee guy applies at all levels and i expect a fudge

As they don't even own the ground they have no assets except player registrations (and it would ned special dispensation from SPL / UEFA. to realise cash from these now)..but in exchange they also have player contracts as liabilities...so liquidation is more likley than in other situations

They won't relegate them to the third division - they built a rod for their own back by doing it with Livingston, I agree, but Livingston were relegated before their season started, thus allowing the SFL to balance the leagues by adding other teams to the 2nd and 1st to balance it.

Also, all clubs who had lost to Dundee or drawn with Dundee would have a case to take action against the SFL and force them to remove all points from all teams who have played Dundee.

If the go into admin, I reckon it'll be a pitiful points reduction to preserve the integrity of the league til the seasons' close. Interesting if they end up going into liquidation though!

**HenryMonk** · 06-10-2010 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Caversham Green

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I reckon another one will go soon but it's unlikely to be Dundee because the other creditors can outvote HMRC for a CVA. Rangers, on the other hand owe most of their debt to the taxman and the Murray group can neither find a buyer nor afford to bail them out. No doubt the SFA would engineer some sort of rescue if that happened though.

i know you know what your talking about Cav, but how could the SFA possibly rescue rangers if things went belly up?

and FWIW i think rangers with champs league money this season will rescue themselves. heaven forbit they make it past group and into knockout rounds they could make best part of 20mill

***easty*** · 06-10-2010 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Stevie Reid

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I would agree that they would do all they could, and that a pittance is all they'll get for him - but if his basic wage over the next 3 months is say £15-20K, how are they gonna pay him with no money? Surely non payment is a breach of contract and LG would rather be a free agent and have a pick of more clubs than go without wages and depend on clubs willing to pay a fee for him in January.

I must add that my understanding of these financial aspects are limited, hence the further questions. I'm not doubting what you've told me thus far.

Don't give what I've posted any credence whatsoever! I'm as clueless about it all as you probably!

I'd be amazed if he's going to make near £15k in the next 3 months though. There will be plenty SPL lads who dont make near that I'd have thought.

The administrators wouldnt be doing a very good job if they let the clubs most saleable asset leave for free instead of finding a way to hold onto him and get him sold.

***Stevie Reid*** · 06-10-2010 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by easty

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Don't give what I've posted any credence whatsoever! I'm as clueless about it all as you probably!

I'd be amazed if he's going to make near £15k in the next 3 months though. There will be plenty SPL lads who dont make near that I'd have thought.

The administrators wouldnt be doing a very good job if they let the clubs most saleable asset leave for free instead of finding a way to hold onto him and get him sold.

The £15k is just a guess but I'd imagine that there is a fair chance that LG is making around £1500 a week if the crazy money that they're supposed to have been spending is to be believed. Big tax bills come from big wage bills.

***Caversham Green*** · 06-10-2010 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by Notting Hill Billy

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i know you know what your talking about Cav, but how could the SFA possibly rescue rangers if things went belly up?

and FWIW i think rangers with champs league money this season will rescue themselves. heaven forbit they make it past group and into knockout rounds they could make best part of 20mill

I don't know how they would do it, but I'm pretty sure they would contrive to keep a Glasgow team called Rangers in th SPL. You're probably right about the CL money as well, but it still looks a bit touch and go to me.

***easty*** · 06-10-2010 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Stevie Reid

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The £15k is just a guess but I'd imagine that there is a fair chance that LG is making around £1500 a week if the crazy money that they're supposed to have been spending is to be believed. Big tax bills come from big wage bills.

I just don't have any idea what Dundee are paying him but if you're correct then that's ridiculous.

If they continue to keep bumping the taxman then, at £1500 a week, they'd only have to find around maybe £9.5k in actual wages to him between now and January. It'd be moronic for Dundee/Administrators to allow him to go for free cos they can't find £9.5k when they could possibly bring in 10x that for him in selling him.

I'd love for him to be released and for Hibs to snap him up for free, I just don't see them letting it happen.

**hibbycha** · 06-10-2010 09:03 AM

we should all put a tenner in .. remember they gave us albert kidd in 1986

**Andy74** · 08-10-2010 12:31 PM

Dundee are to go into administration after all.

Should Rod make the call on Griffiths?!

**GloryGlory** · 08-10-2010 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Andy74

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Dundee are to go into administration after all.

Should Rod make the call on Griffiths?!

Griffiths will be their one asset (maybe Harkins, as well) - they will try to cash in in January. However, it will be a buyer's market, so the administrator will have to take what he can get.

BTW, thank goodness we have STF and RP at the helm.

**truehibernian** · 08-10-2010 12:47 PM

Would have liked MAC back for a 6 month stint. Loves the club, still goes to ER when not playing, and gives 100%. Apparently he is one being released straight away. With Nish and Trakys there I doubt it will happen.

***NORTHERNHIBBY*** · 08-10-2010 01:02 PM

A lot of the problems I think stem back to when Jocky Scott was in charge. His steady as you go football all but had them up, but then they started to look at how they would play in the SPL and they all, as a club, lost concentration. Somebdy told me that their quickest player over 100 metres was still slower than one of the girls that worked with their medical team. This player didn't need to improve though, as he was the quickest in the team.

**~~Phil D. Rolls~~** · 08-10-2010 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

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I have sympathy with their fans and the ordinary people who do the day-to-day work at Dundee who would be made redundant if they were to go to the wall but, other than that, I would have no problems with them going out of business.

It would hopefully act as a lesson to all other football clubs who might think about acting irresponsibly with their finances in the future.

Yes, it is for the fans of all clubs to be very careful about white knights who offer them the world. I only hope Hibs supporters aren't as stupid as to be fooled by sweet talking investors. I very much doubt it though.

**Andy74** · 08-10-2010 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Filled Rolls

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Yes, it is for the fans of all clubs to be very careful about white knights who offer them the world. I only hope Hibs supporters aren't as stupid as to be fooled by sweet talking investors. I very much doubt it though.

Brian Kennedy had more than a few fooled.