State of Scottish football - how bad is it?

[Lucius Apuleius]

What is wrong with Scottish football?

Not enough Scotsmen.

[sh00byd00]

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What is wrong with Scottish football?

Not enough Scotsmen.

Don't agree with that statement. There was a time when the OF rarely bought Scottish, and only ever played Scots because they had no choice but to meet the minimum home grown requirement in European competitions. Rangers for example have Scots from back to front nowadays and that just wasn't the case in the '80's. So if anything more clubs now field more home-grown players than they used to.

It's been spouted many times before, so it's nothing new, but the real problem is how we develop our players. Our coaches still use draconian methods, for example,a youngster's physical appearance dictates where the coach will play him regardless of whether it's playing to his real strengths or not. And that will be the position he will play in until the day he retires

There's not a hope in hell's chance had Cannavaro been Scottish he'd have been given a defensive role. He'd have been shoved up front due to his physical appearance. If a player is quick and nippy, oh... he must be a winger regardless of how good his actual crossing ability is. I could go on all day but i think you get the general jist.

add to that becasue UK players have this mentality drummed into them from an early age they moan when a manager has the audacity to move them into a position that may suit them better. You just need to look at Villa, Mueller etc to see those player can and will perform in different positions.



Our approach to youth football is our problem, not the lack of numbers available.

[Hibby Bairn]

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I agree with what you are saying - totally.

But rememebr, most (if not all) Boys change when they go to High School.

The peer pressure not to drink booze, smoke cigarettes, join a gang & have sex will come into it too.

Poor facilities, dog *****3, lack of fun will all be factors into chasing our youth players away.

Also remember, Professional clubs are hoping to get one player in the end, coming through the youth ranks each year - the rest are all shirt fillers!!

By the age of 13 or so most of the so called better players with highest potential are "playing" and training with senior clubs. But they play 11-a-side as well as far as I know. Just in their own little universe of mediocrity.

The facilities and dog ***** etc. is then left to the masses, most of whom will probably never be footballers.

[aberhibsfc]

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It might not be a popular point of view on here ut Scottissh footall is absolute garbage and quite frankly it's beyond a joke.

Celtic getting pumped by Braga, Hibs humped by Maribor, Rangers humiliated by Unirea, Hearts knocked out of Europe along with Aberdeen last year. These aren't small teams that constantly get blamed for ****ing our co efficient, these are supposed to be our games flagship clubs. The worst part is that none of these teams that are gubbing our teams are world beaters they are just able to do the basics right. Last night Hibs made 5 or 6 passes and then as soon as a bit pressure was put on the man in posession you just knew the next pass would be overhit or underhit, the intended target would miscontrol the ball and his 2nd touch would be a tackle or failing that the ball would just be passed straight to an opposing player.

The whole game is rotten to the core. It's easy to scapegoat the OF and they are part of the problem but our youth systems are terrible. Everyone gets excited when Scottish clubs youth teams(Hibs included) go abroad and win tournaments, thats all well and good but whilst we are winning tournaments because we can play a disciplined 4-4-2 with a couple of buig guys to bully the opposition, the Spanish and Italian clubs are teaching their players to express themselves, control the ball, pass the ball, recycle the ball and try new things. There is nothing like the same emphasis on winning at that level in some European countries. We have 11 and 12 year old boys playing on full size parks with a **** playing good football just get a big guy in there who can bully the other teams lads attitude.We have no under 21 or reserve league to nurture future talent and allow them to bridge the jump from youth to first team football.

No doubt people will point to talent like Darren Fletcher, Graham Dorrans, Steven Fletcher and a few others but these guys are the exception rather than the rule, the vast majority of our young players are jut not good enough and this gets shown in painful clarity at international level or against better quaity opposition. Only 3 clubs in our league own their own training facilities, another couple rent from universities, the rest still think in this day and age it's acceptable to train on pulic parks, and we have the cheek to wonder why our clubs can't compete in Europe.

Our game is a joke, time was we would have been glad to draw a Slovenian, Slovakian, Czech or some other Easter European team in a European game. Not now, now we should be terrified because these countries teach players how to pass and move, how to be technically decent, how to retain and use posession and how to do the basics right. This is something completely lacking in Scottish football and unfortunately the nonsense that passes as football in the SPL week in week out is set to continue for the forseeable future as there is nno desire to change it from the top down, including amongst far too many fans.

True, true.

No Scottish clubs 1st competitive game of the season should be an important European tie.

Maribor may only be 3-4 games into their season, competitively around 6 weeks ahead of ourselves.

With our co-efficient we are going to keep coming into Europe at this stage of the season until our teams start to fight back on the co-efficient front.

The only way I can see Scottish teams achieving this would be for the SPL season to move forward 3-4 weeks.

Marbibor I'm sure will be a decent enough advisory, but would they really take the top SPL teams apart if we were a few games into our season. I don't think they would.

[Lucius Apuleius]

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Don't agree with that statement. There was a time when the OF rarely bought Scottish, and only ever played Scots because they had no choice but to meet the minimum home grown requirement in European competitions. Rangers for example have Scots from back to front nowadays and that just wasn't the case in the '80's. So if anything more clubs now field more home-grown players than they used to.

It's been spouted many times before, so it's nothing new, but the real problem is how we develop our players. Our coaches still use draconian methods, for example,a youngster's physical appearance dictates where the coach will play him regardless of whether it's playing to his real strengths or not. And that will be the position he will play in until the day he retires

There's not a hope in hell's chance had Cannavaro been Scottish he'd have been given a defensive role. He'd have been shoved up front due to his physical appearance. If a player is quick and nippy, oh... he must be a winger regardless of how good his actual crossing ability is. I could go on all day but i think you get the general jist.

add to that becasue UK players have this mentality drummed into them from an early age they moan when a manager has the audacity to move them into a position that may suit them better. You just need to look at Villa, Mueller etc to see those player can and will perform in different positions.



Our approach to youth football is our problem, not the lack of numbers available.

Quite happy to disagree. We did a helluva lot better when we had no foreigners in the game at all.

[w.connectionfc]

The problem with scottish football in the jurassic managers and the people who run our country.
People are to ready to knock it but for me there are some good and quality players who unfortunately aren't getting coached right. It's time to change the whole structure of the game from grass roots. To many team from the age of 8 years old will play big physical bairns rather than the more sophisticated ones because it's all about winning for them.

[euro Hibby]

scottish football has been set up to ensure that both Rangers and Celtic share keep ahead at domestic level. Meantime, sponsorship and money have taken hold of the game and the old firm now struggle to compete with the English Championship teams for players
We have fallen behind the rest also because we have become lazy and money driven and some players probably don't care too much about getting better as they have enough money to see them through a lifetime.
Worse has been the administration and general running of the game ...in short we have gone backwards for years now and as pointed out by others we have no chance in Europe if our season starts late. What we lack in technical ability still can be made up with a bit of huff and puff but if we are only at 60 % in the tank forget it.
This apart, to become a top sportsman you need total dedication and then some luck ! I wonder how many of our guys remain dedicated. Just think to become a top class swimmer you need to be in the pool from aged 10 - 17 averaging 4-5 hours per day , up and down a swimming pool and the rewards a small in comparison to a footballers. If our guys are doing 2 - 3 hours per day its not enough .......
The playing fields are not equal but with a little bit of common sense we should be doing better as a nation. Thankfully, we have a well run club which has survived a very negative period and now is run like a business and makes money. Now for the hard part of making the team winners.

[cjward2]

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I can understand the folks posting on this thread who are talking about giving up going to Easter Road on a Saturday and, for instance, buying a SKY package instead, for sure you will see a better standard of football.

But then I suppose if for you football is an entertainment, just like the Cinema or the Theatre, then the natural reaction is to stop watching a poor product and either move on to something else or through the medium of televison watch the very best available from the comfort of your living room.

As a consumer that is exactly how you are supposed to react to a poor product. I sure as hell wouldnt go to the pictures 18 times in the space of 10 months to see the same crap film.

But if that is what football is to you then you have never really understood what supporting a football club is about.

I am a Hibs supporter, not just a Hibs customer. Who ever heard a commentator shout " and the Hibs customers are going wild at that refs decision".

I for one will stick with Hibs as a paying supporter. I am not sure if my continued support will help Hibs and Scottish football in general get any better.

There is no doubt that Scottish football has been at a very low ebb over the last few decades and there doesnt at the moment look like being a quick fix on the horizon.

But I sure as hell know that if I withdraw my support as a paying fan and give my money to SKY so that the EPL can continue to pay its players £100,000 per week Hibs and Scottish football will have no chance of getting better and in the long run will not survive.

I love Hibs and I love Scottish football and I for one will not stand by and watch either one of them die.

And if that leaves me open to a charge of being a sucker or over sentimental about the club and game I support, then I'm happy to say 'guilty as charged'

well spoken, we need more people like you who want change, but are still supporters.

[sh00byd00]

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Quite happy to disagree. We did a helluva lot better when we had no foreigners in the game at all.

That's going back to the days when long ball football actually produced results. I don't think the actual quality has went down (we still have good players scattered around england), nor have the numbers nose dived, it's simply a case of our youth coaches applying the same methods as they did in the 70's and 80's when teaching the kids of today.

if the fault doesn't lie with the coaches, then i dunno where it lies as the only alternative is generations of Scottish kids have been born with 2 left feet.

[heretoday]

You've got to get kids enjoying the game and getting used to having the ball at their feet.

I'm fed up hearing fathers on the touchline screaming at their offspring to "get rid of it" and worse. That has ruined our game and just perpetuates the "lump it up the park" mentality.

Kids need to play on smaller pitches for longer to encourage a quick passing game and good ball control.

And we need to study how they do it abroad in the countries we used to beat but who now are ahead of us.

[TheEastTerrace]

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I can understand the folks posting on this thread who are talking about giving up going to Easter Road on a Saturday and, for instance, buying a SKY package instead, for sure you will see a better standard of football.

But then I suppose if for you football is an entertainment, just like the Cinema or the Theatre, then the natural reaction is to stop watching a poor product and either move on to something else or through the medium of televison watch the very best available from the comfort of your living room.

As a consumer that is exactly how you are supposed to react to a poor product. I sure as hell wouldnt go to the pictures 18 times in the space of 10 months to see the same crap film.

But if that is what football is to you then you have never really understood what supporting a football club is about.

I am a Hibs supporter, not just a Hibs customer. Who ever heard a commentator shout " and the Hibs customers are going wild at that refs decision".

I for one will stick with Hibs as a paying supporter. I am not sure if my continued support will help Hibs and Scottish football in general get any better.

There is no doubt that Scottish football has been at a very low ebb over the last few decades and there doesnt at the moment look like being a quick fix on the horizon.

But I sure as hell know that if I withdraw my support as a paying fan and give my money to SKY so that the EPL can continue to pay its players £100,000 per week Hibs and Scottish football will have no chance of getting better and in the long run will not survive.

I love Hibs and I love Scottish football and I for one will not stand by and watch either one of them die.

And if that leaves me open to a charge of being a sucker or over sentimental about the club and game I support, then I'm happy to say 'guilty as charged'

There was once a time that I would have totally agreed with you. I saved up money from my paper round to go watch Alex Miller's teams throughout the 90s so I can relate with those sentiments. Hibs were a big part of my life for me and my mates.

However, times have changed since then and Scottish football clubs have crossed the line for what is charged for attending football in this country. Used to cost me £6 to get into Easter Road, albeit as a juvenile, circa mid 90s. Now, up to £25 (inc. BF) for a Cat B game and up to £30 (inc. BF) for a Cat A game. If I thought these players were worth that outlay every other week, I'd be there like a shot. But for the last few seasons, I've sat through so much mediocre pesh, where these so called players are picking up thousands a week, and thought 'sorry, can't do this anymore'. If that makes me a customer now, then so be it. But with this country about to go through the ringer, I have to be much more selective about how I spend my cash. Sign of the times.

So, yes I am customer now I guess, not so much a fan anymore. But Scottish football pushed me that way i.e. if the clubs want to charge that kind of money for football, then they have to be prepared to compete with other leisure alternatives or even the bare necessities of life. Where's the shame in admitting that? And at this stage in my life, £20 extra a month on sky sports, I'm afraid is a no brainer. Yes, it will probably feed the EPL machine, but I still want to watch football. I am a fan and lover of football, so if that is the only way I can watch it without breaking the bank, hey so be it.

I am sad and depressed about the way Scottish football has gone, but I have no faith whatsoever in the SFA, clubs, government, etc to do anything about it. Therefore, sad to say that I see no bright future for the game in this country as it stands.

[MacBean]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/jimspence...e_need_fo.html

Brought up by Spencey on the Beeb today.

I have to say there are some good suggestions on the board there. like a C(K)eltic league between N.Ireland, Ireland, Wales and Scotland.

I like that idea, would give an edge to the competition, new teams, new faces, new stadiums.

People will gripe saying travelling down the Wales or over to Ireland is too far for away fans. Is it baws! Newcastle took 4000 down to Plymouth on a WEDNESDAY night last season. If you want to see the game, you'll go.

[Keith_M]

I had a short spell helping out at Primary school level football. I realise that doesn't make me an expert but my observations on it would be that the 7 aside, half size pitches they employed were definitely the way to go. However, there was a distinct lack of assistance from any professional bodies. There was actually an SFA assigned coach but he was the coach for what, at the time, was the whole Central Region (Stirling, Clacks' & Falkirk), therefore he was spread very thinly. I, in fact, never got a chance to meet the guy the whole season I was there, despite making multiple requests.

Two other things I noticed were: The 'coaches' (usually poorly trained parents, like myself) normally picked the larger players over the technically gifted; Once the kids left Primary School, there was no outlet for those on the fringes, therefore most kids were lost to the game.

Kid football should not be about singling out the few kids at the top and rejecting everyone else, and definitely should not be about winning a cabinet full of trophies. It should be about giving every kid the opportunity to have training and to make continual improvement. Sadly, there just aren't enough trained/motivated people to provide that.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Scottish football is down the pan! Its only cos Scotland is a nation full of football fanatics that'll go along to watch any old crap that it has any sort of meaningful existence IMHO.

[Andy74]

I'm not sure the basis of this thread is even correct.

The other night we played Slovenia's most succesful team, who last year finished second in their league.

We are far from scotland's most succesful team and we finihed fourth.

We were not given any sort of masterclass, it wasn't really a 3-0 game and some individual mistakes cost us. we also chose to play without our top two goalscorers!

We also have a second leg coming up and we've yet to see how that will go. i'd bet we create more chances in our home game tham they did in theirs.

How would we have fared against the team that finished fourth in Slovenia? Probably better.

How would we have done having played some league games?

I'm not sure it's right to judge Scottish football on how out fourth and fifth teams do against teams that are inevitably well into their season and are generally placed above us in their own leagues.

I haven't checked but who did Slovenia have in ther group to qualify for the World Cup? Was it tougher than ours?

[heretoday]

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There was once a time that I would have totally agreed with you. I saved up money from my paper round to go watch Alex Miller's teams throughout the 90s so I can relate with those sentiments. Hibs were a big part of my life for me and my mates.

However, times have changed since then and Scottish football clubs have crossed the line for what is charged for attending football in this country. Used to cost me £6 to get into Easter Road, albeit as a juvenile, circa mid 90s. Now, up to £25 (inc. BF) for a Cat B game and up to £30 (inc. BF) for a Cat A game. If I thought these players were worth that outlay every other week, I'd be there like a shot. But for the last few seasons, I've sat through so much mediocre pesh, where these so called players are picking up thousands a week, and thought 'sorry, can't do this anymore'. If that makes me a customer now, then so be it. But with this country about to go through the ringer, I have to be much more selective about how I spend my cash. Sign of the times.

So, yes I am customer now I guess, not so much a fan anymore. But Scottish football pushed me that way i.e. if the clubs want to charge that kind of money for football, then they have to be prepared to compete with other leisure alternatives or even the bare necessities of life. Where's the shame in admitting that? And at this stage in my life, £20 extra a month on sky sports, I'm afraid is a no brainer. Yes, it will probably feed the EPL machine, but I still want to watch football. I am a fan and lover of football, so if that is the only way I can watch it without breaking the bank, hey so be it.

I am sad and depressed about the way Scottish football has gone, but I have no faith whatsoever in the SFA, clubs, government, etc to do anything about it. Therefore, sad to say that I see no bright future for the game in this country as it stands.

Yup. That just about sums it up.

[mjhibby]

You only have to compare this hibs team with the team of sauzee and latapy and even hertz in comparison to 5 years ago to see how far and how quickly it has gone backwards.10 years ago celtic wouldnt be signing sunderland reserves and scunthorpes centre forward and rangers would not have lost six players and got none in.No club with the possible exception of the arabs is better than they were say 8 to 10 years ago and the likes of aberdeen are a shadow of their former selves.
Lets not kid ourselves on with the motherwell result as most people accept they got a favourable draw and took advantage of it.The point of not starting the season early enough is so obvious to all bar the spl that should we not address it for next season then scottish teams will spend years in the wilderness and god knows when will will be competetive again.If the rangers scores of last season(who the heck are unirea before they thumped them 4-1 at ibrox) and celtics humbling by braga and of course aberdeen record defeat surely shows just how bad we were.What has been noticable in all the reports of hibs preseason is how much sharper the opposition were yet we won 4-0 against two of the strongest 1st division sides.
That tells you that we are reasonable in a scottish sense but miles off the pace as regards europe.Yogi was unlucky to draw a team of maribors calibre and it will be interesting to see how far they get.we look to have set up preseason to be ready for the well game and hoped we could squeeze through in the europa league.Id be happy just to win on thursday but cant see us going though.Im not being pessimistic but realistic and what we will all wonder that had we started back a week or 10 days earlier could the result have been different.I for one certainly think so.Good luck to the lads on thursday and hopefully we get some momentum for the start of the season and either get bamba back in the team or sell him and get a canning type ch in.Rant well and truly over.