Playing for a draw. Acceptable?

[Hibbyradge]

Germany and Austria were lambasted for playing out a draw which saw them both through to the next stage of the 1990(?) world cup.

Mexico and Urugauy face a similar situation this afternoon.

They're entitled to play for a draw, aren't they? In the same way as Hibs accepted a draw against Rangers a few seasons ago which took us into Europe.

If Scotland ever faced a similar situation, (please, please, please, please) I'd be furious if they went for a win and lost out.

Waddya fink?

[hibsbollah]

If its my team, its OK.
If its anyone elses, its shocking cheating and they should have the book thrown at them.

[mim]

I think Hibs accepted a 1-0 defeat, did they not?

Anyway, I agree. It's about qualifying.There are no bad ways to do it.

[Greentinted]

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Germany and Austria were lambasted for playing out a draw which saw them both through to the next stage of the 1990(?) world cup.

Mexico and Urugauy face a similar situation this afternoon.


Waddya fink?

It was 1982 and West Germany won 1-0 which put both teams through at the expense of Algeria. Although sanctions were not applied, this convenient result precipitated the ruling that all WC group final games be played simultaneously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_FIFA_World_Cup

FWIW if both teams decide to go all out for a draw today then thats fair enough. Its when defeats are managed at the expense of other teams that dubiety comes in and tends to veer away from the 'spirit of the game'.

[Hibbyradge]

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I think Hibs accepted a 1-0 defeat, did they not?

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It was 1982 and West Germany won 1-0

Aye.

[PeeJay]

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Germany and Austria were lambasted for playing out a draw which saw them both through to the next stage of the 1990(?) world cup.

Mexico and Urugauy face a similar situation this afternoon.

They're entitled to play for a draw, aren't they? In the same way as Hibs accepted a draw against Rangers a few seasons ago which took us into Europe.

If Scotland ever faced a similar situation, (please, please, please, please) I'd be furious if they went for a win and lost out.

Waddya fink?

Personally find it inacceptable - match fixing IMO. Here in Germany most people found it extremely distasteful that the German national team was involved in that infamous game - FWIW I don't believe that winning at all costs is acceptable in sport. I think there is a difference in "tactically holding out for a draw" if the other team is pushing hard for a win and that Austrian v Germany game in which it was obvious that once the scoreline of 1-0 stood both teams decided to pass the ball around without any intention of playing to win - they basically "cheated".
I'm aware of course that for some people and indeed sporting (sic) nations cheating is acceptable, but it's not for me, just my particular opinion of course. I want Hibs or Scotland or whoever I happen to be supporting at any given time to win, but not by unfair means: no diving, no hand balls, no feigning injuries, bribing refs, no drugs, no match fixing. Fair play!

[pentlando]

Heard Roy Hodgson talking about this the other day and completely agree with him, both teams will start the game trying to win it. But they both know a defeat may put them out, so the will to win becomes overawed by the fear of defeat. They may not be consciously playing for the draw, but just taking extra precautions which will make goals very unlikely.

[Andy74]

Group games are abut getting the results you need. They are in this position and entitled to play for any result they want now.

[Musselbound]

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Personally find it inacceptable - match fixing IMO. Here in Germany most people found it extremely distasteful that the German national team was involved in that infamous game - FWIW I don't believe that winning at all costs is acceptable in sport. I think there is a difference in "tactically holding out for a draw" if the other team is pushing hard for a win and that Austrian v Germany game in which it was obvious that once the scoreline of 1-0 stood both teams decided to pass the ball around without any intention of playing to win - they basically "cheated".
I'm aware of course that for some people and indeed sporting (sic) nations cheating is acceptable, but it's not for me, just my particular opinion of course. I want Hibs or Scotland or whoever I happen to be supporting at any given time to win, but not by unfair means: no diving, no hand balls, no feigning injuries, bribing refs, no drugs, no match fixing. Fair play!

Agree with this. Big difference between a defensive performance and some kind of agreement or understanding being in place. Teams playing defensively would probably argue that they also hope to nick one on the break and win the game. It will be no surprise if today's game ends in a draw but I sincerely hope this is not agreed beforehand.

[HibeeB]

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I think Hibs accepted a 1-0 defeat, did they not?

Anyway, I agree. It's about qualifying.There are no bad ways to do it.

Mowbray said at the time that he was happy with what happened.

When asked after the game by a reporter, he said that his responsibility was to look out for Hibs, not any other team.

Which I thought was fair enough.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

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Mowbray said at the time that he was happy with what happened.

When asked after the game by a reporter, he said that his responsibility was to look out for Hibs, not any other team.

Which I thought was fair enough.

I agree.

In a league its about all the results, not just one. If a team needs another to do them a favour then they will always be able to look back on a game they lost earlier.

Its not ideal and makes for bad TV but it is fair enough.

[Killiehibbie]

I think the second placed team in that group are likely to get Argentina. I think I would be going out to win the game and get, on paper, an easier game.

[RoslinInstHibby]

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I think the second placed team in that group are likely to get Argentina. I think I would be going out to win the game and get, on paper, an easier game.

thats the key point for me, they would both want to avoid Argentina

[Purehibee_MYB]

Both teams would much rather play South Korea than Argentina, don't think if you look at it in the long run a draw suits both of them, a win suits one of them so it should be a good game

[Hibs07p]

Will the bookies get it wrong?

Mexico and Uruguay are both 3/1 to win and 5/6 the draw.

[Pretty Boy]

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Group games are abut getting the results you need. They are in this position and entitled to play for any result they want now.

Spot on. They got the results they needed in their earlier games to put themselves in this fortunate position.

If the French or South Africans don't like it then tough. They had the chance to do something about it and failed.

[Hibernian Verse]

Completely different, but I'm sure that in the Champions League a few years back Liverpool and Galatasaray (Might not be 'pool but definitely the Turks) were both through to the next round and pretty much passed the ball to each other?

[BroxburnHibee]

It will be a draw

[Hibs On Tour]

1982 as another poster noted:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...ld-cup-algeria

A smattering of Algerian fans in the Gijón crowd burned peseta notes to show their suspicions of corruption, while most of the Spaniards in attendance waved hankies throughout the second half in a traditional display of disdain. The next day newspapers in Spain denounced "El Anschluss" and there was outrage in Wst Germany and Austria too. Eberhard Stanjek, commentating for the German channel ARD, almost sobbed during the match as he lamented: "What is happening here is disgraceful and has nothing to do with football. You can say what you like, but not every end justifies the means." The Austrian commentator, meanwhile, told viewers to turn off their sets and refused to speak for the last half-hour. Former West German international Willi Schulz branded the German players "gangsters".

The gangsters, however, were unapologetic. When German fans gathered at the team hotel to protest, the players responded by throwing water bombs at them from their balconies.

Even less bothered was the head of the Austrian delegation, Hans Tschak, who made these extraordinary comments: "Naturally today's game was played tactically. But if 10,000 'sons of the desert' here in the stadium want to trigger a scandal because of this it just goes to show that they have too few schools. Some sheikh comes out of an oasis, is allowed to get a sniff of World Cup air after 300 years and thinks he's entitled to open his gob."

Did the Algerian players take offence? Not at all, Merzekane says. "We weren't angry, we were cool," he says. "To see two big powers debasing themselves in order to eliminate us was a tribute to Algeria. They progressed with dishonour, we went out with our heads held high."

IMO, I think its harsh to call it cheating but its hardly in the spirit of the game, where you should IMHO go out to win every game. I *hate* this fear of losing crap - for me its killing the game. Its why good youngsters get taught not to go on mazy runs but to make square passes, its why in today's game the likes of George Best would likely not make the grade with coaches.

Might sound like boyish naievity but for me, I'd rather my team went out to win and lost 1-0 than went out to draw 0-0 with whatever result. And if that cost us a chance of Europe likewise it wouldn't have been that game alone, it would have been the season leading up to it.

I'm just an old-fashioned purist!

[7Hero]

and so it was a win...

[Danderhall Hibs]

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I think the second placed team in that group are likely to get Argentina. I think I would be going out to win the game and get, on paper, an easier game.

If you were going to finish 2nd after a draw you'd be inclined to go for the win, especially with it being Argentina or Greece in the last 16 - you'd want Greece everyday.

[Speedy]

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and so it was a win...

It was a win for the wrong team as well

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Just stuck £20 on Mexico to beat Uruguay @ 11/4. I know they both only need a draw but Mexico are sitting second at the moment so I think they'll be less content with a draw than Uruguay.

Edit: I don't really see anything wrong with playing for a draw. If Uruguay needed a draw to win the group then why shouldn't they play cautiously?

[hibsbollah]

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1982 as another poster noted:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...ld-cup-algeria

A smattering of Algerian fans in the Gijón crowd burned peseta notes to show their suspicions of corruption, while most of the Spaniards in attendance waved hankies throughout the second half in a traditional display of disdain. The next day newspapers in Spain denounced "El Anschluss" and there was outrage in Wst Germany and Austria too. Eberhard Stanjek, commentating for the German channel ARD, almost sobbed during the match as he lamented: "What is happening here is disgraceful and has nothing to do with football. You can say what you like, but not every end justifies the means." The Austrian commentator, meanwhile, told viewers to turn off their sets and refused to speak for the last half-hour. Former West German international Willi Schulz branded the German players "gangsters".

The gangsters, however, were unapologetic. When German fans gathered at the team hotel to protest, the players responded by throwing water bombs at them from their balconies.

Even less bothered was the head of the Austrian delegation, Hans Tschak, who made these extraordinary comments: "Naturally today's game was played tactically. But if 10,000 'sons of the desert' here in the stadium want to trigger a scandal because of this it just goes to show that they have too few schools. Some sheikh comes out of an oasis, is allowed to get a sniff of World Cup air after 300 years and thinks he's entitled to open his gob."

Did the Algerian players take offence? Not at all, Merzekane says. "We weren't angry, we were cool," he says. "To see two big powers debasing themselves in order to eliminate us was a tribute to Algeria. They progressed with dishonour, we went out with our heads held high."

IMO, I think its harsh to call it cheating but its hardly in the spirit of the game, where you should IMHO go out to win every game. I *hate* this fear of losing crap - for me its killing the game. Its why good youngsters get taught not to go on mazy runs but to make square passes, its why in today's game the likes of George Best would likely not make the grade with coaches.

Might sound like boyish naievity but for me, I'd rather my team went out to win and lost 1-0 than went out to draw 0-0 with whatever result. And if that cost us a chance of Europe likewise it wouldn't have been that game alone, it would have been the season leading up to it.

I'm just an old-fashioned purist!

It wasnt that widely reported, but the Algerians did exactly the same this year in the African Cup of Nations. They and Angola manufactured a 0-0 draw in the final group game which eliminated Mali and sent Algeria through to the 2nd round. They played tippy-tappy for the entire 2nd half, just like the much maligned Germany-Austria match in 82.

[Hibs On Tour]

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It wasnt that widely reported, but the Algerians did exactly the same this year in the African Cup of Nations. They and Angola manufactured a 0-0 draw in the final group game which eliminated Mali and sent Algeria through to the 2nd round. They played tippy-tappy for the entire 2nd half, just like the much maligned Germany-Austria match in 82.

Ach well, I suppose they learned something from 82 then?

No how the game should be played IMHO.

[deek]

Just an idea about going for a draw and goal difference. What if there was a penalty competition before the group stages kicked off. The goal difference from that could count towards the games played. Only 5 penalties no extras and the same 5 players for all penalties. Each team would play their group opponents. Might spice it up a bit???