Neil Lennon ... Again

[NAE NOOKIE]

Saw him on reporting Scotland saying how Henry McLeish's idea of kids playing in the summer on proper pitches would improve their ability was rubbish because it doesnt hurt the developement of players in Africa or South America.

What a pile of cack !!!

Does he think that all the pro players who come to Europe from Brazil or Argentina play on patches of waste ground until they are 17 and then get to play on a proper pitch when the join the first team at Boca or River or Santos or Vasco Da Gama.

Not a chance. They are picked up at age 5 and given the proper facilities they need to nurture and improve their game.

As for Africa:

For North Africa the deal is the same as South America. The facilities at the two biggest clubs in Egypt for instance are second to none.

Not so sure about Sub Saharan Africa, but what it does have is a population running into hundreds of millions, most of whom are under the age of 30. So the number of Africans playing in Europe is microscopic compared to the actual potential numbers there could be.

Ajax have run football schools in Africa for years on proper pitches and have discovered a number of decent players as a result. It would be interesting to ask them what they think of Mr Lennons comment.

No wonder Celtic's youth system is crap if that is the sort of thinking that currently goes on at their club.

[Jonnyboy]

Have never liked Lennon - he's a wee snide

[PC Stamp]

Wee erse is Lennon. Hope he gets the Celtc job full time cos he'll keep them stuck in the pool of mediocrity which they now languish!

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

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Saw him on reporting Scotland saying how Henry McLeish's idea of kids playing in the summer on proper pitches would improve their ability was rubbish because it doesnt hurt the developement of players in Africa or South America.

What a pile of cack !!!

Does he think that all the pro players who come to Europe from Brazil or Argentina play on patches of waste ground until they are 17 and then get to play on a proper pitch when the join the first team at Boca or River or Santos or Vasco Da Gama.

Not a chance. They are picked up at age 5 and given the proper facilities they need to nurture and improve their game.

As for Africa:

For North Africa the deal is the same as South America. The facilities at the two biggest clubs in Egypt for instance are second to none.

Not so sure about Sub Saharan Africa, but what it does have is a population running into hundreds of millions, most of whom are under the age of 30. So the number of Africans playing in Europe is microscopic compared to the actual potential numbers there could be.

Ajax have run football schools in Africa for years on proper pitches and have discovered a number of decent players as a result. It would be interesting to ask them what they think of Mr Lennons comment.

No wonder Celtic's youth system is crap if that is the sort of thinking that currently goes on at their club.

Never had any respect for Lennon as a player.

He's in management for 10 minutes and wants to express his opinion on everything.

boys an erse.

[Removed]

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Have never liked Lennon - he's a wee snide

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Wee erse is Lennon. Hope he gets the Celtc job full time cos he'll keep them stuck in the pool of mediocrity which they now languish!

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Never had any respect for Lennon as a player.

He's in management for 10 minutes and wants to express his opinion on everything.

boys an erse.

Yet there were some on here posting the other day he'd be a good shout for us

No ****ing danger

[marinello59]

Lennon declared that academies don't work because Celtic have only produced McGreedy through the youth system in recent years. Doesn't stop them buying up players prodiced through other clubs Youth Systems does it? Rumour has it that Lennon was one of the more intelligent football players. He hides it well.

[Hibbyradge]

Why all the angst?

Right or wrong, it's just an opinion.

I'm guessing he was asked a question by a journo and answered it. Badly or well.

Take a chill pill, guys. High blood presure is a silent threat.

[Pete]

I never heard the Lennon interview but if people are saying good technical ability, close control and touch is in direct relation to the state of the facilities they have access to as a youngster then I think they are wrong.

The best footballers in the world honed their skills on the streets playing with tennis balls and flyaways on uneven surfaces like concrete, mud and grass pitches like motherwells.

The whole strategy of football development in our country is flawed because it's centered on a few excellent facilities when in the past there were countless numbers of crap facilities.
At least these crap facilities were "free". You could go and kick a ball about till dusk and there was nobody stopping you. People played football more and without constraints and that's where proper skills were honed....not in some adult run class. The great players of yesteryear learnt to feint and trap a ball because they whacked and trapped balls off unpredictable surfaces like kerbs and walls without fear of someones car getting tanned. The unexpected bounce in the crap grass pitch time after time eventually made the ball stick to their feet in any circumstance.

What's got to change is the councils policy of getting rid of open green space and replacing it with these controlled footballing environments.

[hibsboy90]

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I never heard the Lennon interview but if people are saying good technical ability, close control and touch is in direct relation to the state of the facilities they have access to as a youngster then I think they are wrong.

The best footballers in the world honed their skills on the streets playing with tennis balls and flyaways on uneven surfaces like concrete, mud and grass pitches like motherwells.

The whole strategy of football development in our country is flawed because it's centered on a few excellent facilities when in the past there were countless numbers of crap facilities.
At least these crap facilities were "free". You could go and kick a ball about till dusk and there was nobody stopping you. People played football more and without constraints and that's where proper skills were honed....not in some adult run class. The great players of yesteryear learnt to feint and trap a ball because they whacked and trapped balls off unpredictable surfaces like kerbs and walls without fear of someones car getting tanned. The unexpected bounce in the crap grass pitch time after time eventually made the ball stick to their feet in any circumstance.

What's got to change is the councils policy of getting rid of open green space and replacing it with these controlled footballing environments.

On the flipside.....

A good pitch means they don't need to worry about the bounce of the ball, they know how it should react, and as such, only keep one eye on it. The other eye is focused on where the rest of the players are, and already thinking about where the next pass is.....

Opinions eh!

[Pete]

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On the flipside.....

A good pitch means they don't need to worry about the bounce of the ball, they know how it should react, and as such, only keep one eye on it. The other eye is focused on where the rest of the players are, and already thinking about where the next pass is.....

Opinions eh!

I'm now starting to realise why Ian Dowie commanded such high transfer fees.

[Pete]

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On the flipside.....

A good pitch means they don't need to worry about the bounce of the ball, they know how it should react, and as such, only keep one eye on it. The other eye is focused on where the rest of the players are, and already thinking about where the next pass is.....

Opinions eh!

Seriously...the players in the past had to worry about the bounce, and they still had to worry about where the rest of the players were.

It's the same pitch for everyone remember.

[Cropley10]

Summer football. Think you're all missing the point.

The problem is that the season, at the 7 a side level at least, is not continous. There's a break enforced by the lack of light in Winter, restricting access to parks, and the state of the pitches themselves where either rain frost or snow makes them unplayable, or they're not played to stop them from being ruined.

As a result not only are our young kids, the footballers of tomorrow playing on often poor quality pitches, in the freezing cold or like last Sunday freezing cold, pouring rain but they have their season broken up by frequent call offs and then a 3 month enforced break.

By the way - it's MUCH easier to teach children the basic skills to play the game on a good rather rather than bad surface. That's obvious surely

There's no downside to summer football for kids: better surfaces, the ball rolls so much better on proper cut grass, better weather and more light mean you can play more games over a week. Start playing in March end in October with a break for holidays in July.

However I fully expect it to stay exactly the same. Because this isn't the way we did it is it.

[Cropley10]

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Seriously...the players in the past had to worry about the bounce, and they still had to worry about where the rest of the players were.

It's the same pitch for everyone remember.

Aye and that's why Scotland has so many high quality technically gifted players and always has done eh

If you're right why don't they play the World Cup on ploughed fields??

[crash]

Agree 100% with Lennons comments, its got nothing to do with lack of facilities.

[judas]

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Saw him on reporting Scotland saying how Henry McLeish's idea of kids playing in the summer on proper pitches would improve their ability was rubbish because it doesnt hurt the developement of players in Africa or South America.

What a pile of cack !!!

Does he think that all the pro players who come to Europe from Brazil or Argentina play on patches of waste ground until they are 17 and then get to play on a proper pitch when the join the first team at Boca or River or Santos or Vasco Da Gama.

Not a chance. They are picked up at age 5 and given the proper facilities they need to nurture and improve their game.

As for Africa:

For North Africa the deal is the same as South America. The facilities at the two biggest clubs in Egypt for instance are second to none.

Not so sure about Sub Saharan Africa, but what it does have is a population running into hundreds of millions, most of whom are under the age of 30. So the number of Africans playing in Europe is microscopic compared to the actual potential numbers there could be.

Ajax have run football schools in Africa for years on proper pitches and have discovered a number of decent players as a result. It would be interesting to ask them what they think of Mr Lennons comment.

No wonder Celtic's youth system is crap if that is the sort of thinking that currently goes on at their club.

I'm with you.

I was thinking there might be a depth to Lennon. Now I am seeing it is more of a large empty chasm.

Summer football would improve the standard in this country for everyone.

[Antifa Hibs]

TBH I don't think academies are the be all and end all aswell.

There's nae point in having 20 academies when 95% of kids are playing on absulute pesh pitches. Every town/city/village should have a certain number of enclosed pitches, used by football/boys clubs only. How the heck is a kid meant to learn to play football on pitches like Inverleith on a massive slope. How's a kid meant to play fitba at Craigroyston and Pilton Park when they are dodging dog **** for 80 minutes. How they meant to play fitba at the Jewel when there's neds running about with motorbikes and smashed glass over the place. The basics need to be vastly improved aswell. There was no joy in getting up at 10am to get changed in a freezing cauld hut to play on pitches described above. Decent playing surfaces for boys clubs, schools etc are just as important in any acedemies IMO.

Something else that needs to change, and this is probably the biggest thing, which is unlikely to happen anytime soon is the mindset of of teenagers. In Scotland, appears a large percentage of kids can't wait til they're 17/18 so they can get reeking on a Saturday and Sunday now! I mind playing with some cracking players, players that had trials, some had signed for the likes of Aberdeen, Raith, Dunfi etc, but when they turned 18 they chucked it. They'd rather spend a Saturday in the boozer drinking flat lager sticking that ****** up their beak. I wonder if kids/teens in Croatia, Portugal, Holland and what have ye that same mindset? Absulutely no change. Scotlands drink problem is as big a problem to Scottish fitba than the lack of acedemies etc.

[Hibbyradge]

Diego Maradona learned to play football on the fields of the shanty town in which he was born.

By the age of 10 he was already exceptionally skilled.

He turned professional at the age of 15 and played in Argentina till he was 22.

My view is that if you can learn to football on a poor surface, you will be able to do so on a good one.

Clearly from the exploits, and exclamations, of our "stars", the reverse is not necessarily the same.

[Cropley10]

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Diego Maradona learned to play football on the fields of the shanty town in which he was born.

By the age of 10 he was already exceptionally skilled.

He turned professional at the age of 15 and played in Argentina till he was 22.

My view is that if you can learn to football on a poor surface, you will be able to do so on a good one.

Clearly from the exploits, and exclamations, of our "stars", the reverse is not necessarily the same.

But there aren't (m)any 'good surfaces' for kids to play, that's the problem...

And because Diego Maradona - the greatest player of all time - managed to learn on a poor surface, everyone else can?

So - bearing in mind - in Scotland we have lots of poor quality surfaces to learn the game how many technically gifted players have we produced in say the past 15 years??

[Hibbyradge]

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But there aren't (m)any 'good surfaces' for kids to play, that's the problem...

And because Diego Maradona - the greatest player of all time - managed to learn on a poor surface, everyone else can?

So - bearing in mind - in Scotland we have lots of poor quality surfaces to learn the game how many technically gifted players have we produced in say the past 15 years??

Lionel Messi learned on poor surfaces too as did many of the best players Scotland has ever produced. You didn't hear Jimmy Johnstone, Pat Stanton, Denis Law or your namesake, Alex, complaining about where they trained or played.

Get the jerseys down lads and get a game going. Anywhere. Facilities were much worse 40 years ago and that's when we were building our best ever world cup team.

I'm not against providing good playing surfaces, I just don't think that this is the root cause of Scotland's problem.

For a start, less and less people are playing football. There are too many other choices.

Secondly, the quantity of cheap foreign players is stiffling opportunities for home grown talent and if the route to the top is closed, there is a knock on effect all the way down.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Seriously...the players in the past had to worry about the bounce, and they still had to worry about where the rest of the players were.

It's the same pitch for everyone remember.

It certainly worked for British football up until the late 60s, early 70s. Since then our game has been overtaken by emerging countries who have trained their kids in a more structured way.

I'm thinking particularly of Holland, but also the Scandanavian countries.

[Pretty Boy]

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Diego Maradona learned to play football on the fields of the shanty town in which he was born.

By the age of 10 he was already exceptionally skilled.

He turned professional at the age of 15 and played in Argentina till he was 22.

My view is that if you can learn to football on a poor surface, you will be able to do so on a good one.

Clearly from the exploits, and exclamations, of our "stars", the reverse is not necessarily the same.

Maradonna is the exception rather than the rule. It's a total myth that all South Americans are street kids and from shanty towns who learned football playing with a tine can in bare feet. The only other example i can think of in recent years is Rivaldo who came from absolute poverty hence his bandy legs caused by rickets.

Most of the other prominent Brazilians and Argentinians in football today have either come from reasonably decent neighbourhoods. Kaka, Ronaldinho and Robinho being key examples. Even the like of Messi who came from a poor family was looked after by Barcelona from the age of 13.

Good facilities and more importantly good scouts with the right philosophy produce good players. Scottish football has to lose the mentality that to be decent you need to be physical. Billy Stark, the head of youth football in the country, admitted that Xavi and Iniesta would have struggled to get picked up in Scotland because they wouldn't have been physically able to cope with the game here. Some of the comments on this forum prove his views aren't isolated but rather integral to the Scottish view on football.

France proved that a complete overhaul of the system doesn't have to take an age. After the disasters of the early 1990s they put a scouting structure in place to ensure that no young player slipped through the net, they built a state of the art academy and insisted top flight clubs invest heavily in youth football. They also implemented a rule that made clubs play French youngsters in domestic cup competitions, Monaco unleashed 2 unknown youngsters by the names of David Trezeguet and Thierry Henry thanks to this rule. Within 6 years of these changes France were World Cup winners, 2 years later they added the European Championsips.

The Dutch again focussed heavily on youth in the 1970s and went on to produce a constant conveyor belt of talent which continues to this day. Van Der Sar, Davids, Seedorf, Van Basten, Van Nistelrooy, Van Persie, the De Boer brothers, Kluivert etc etc all came through the academies of Holland.

You only have to look at the basic technical abilitiy of most Eastern European teams to see how a decent philosophy can build a competitive team. They get the ball down, let it do the work, kepp it on the ground and if theres no pass on they constantly recycle the ball until they have an option. Unirea Uricezni played Rangers of the park at Ibrox by simply having players who have a decent first touch and who could make a simple 10 yard pass. Rangers had players who could win a physical battle but because Unirea could move the ball so quickly there was no physical battle.

Good pitches, good facilities and the right philosophy might not produce Scotland a Maradonna but it will produce us plenty more in the mould of Darren Fletcher which would be a pretty good start.

[Brizo]

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TBH I don't think academies are the be all and end all aswell.

There's nae point in having 20 academies when 95% of kids are playing on absulute pesh pitches. Every town/city/village should have a certain number of enclosed pitches, used by football/boys clubs only. How the heck is a kid meant to learn to play football on pitches like Inverleith on a massive slope. How's a kid meant to play fitba at Craigroyston and Pilton Park when they are dodging dog **** for 80 minutes. How they meant to play fitba at the Jewel when there's neds running about with motorbikes and smashed glass over the place. The basics need to be vastly improved aswell. There was no joy in getting up at 10am to get changed in a freezing cauld hut to play on pitches described above. Decent playing surfaces for boys clubs, schools etc are just as important in any acedemies IMO.

Something else that needs to change, and this is probably the biggest thing, which is unlikely to happen anytime soon is the mindset of of teenagers. In Scotland, appears a large percentage of kids can't wait til they're 17/18 so they can get reeking on a Saturday and Sunday now! I mind playing with some cracking players, players that had trials, some had signed for the likes of Aberdeen, Raith, Dunfi etc, but when they turned 18 they chucked it. They'd rather spend a Saturday in the boozer drinking flat lager sticking that ****** up their beak. I wonder if kids/teens in Croatia, Portugal, Holland and what have ye that same mindset? Absulutely no change. Scotlands drink problem is as big a problem to Scottish fitba than the lack of acedemies etc.

Your spot on about the likes of Inverleith and the Jewel. My personal favourite was always the Jack Kane where if you managed to dodge the dog sh@te you'd then have to dodge all the wee sh@tes on their trailbikes and quadbikes. The beautiful game

Your also spot on about the Scottish culture where when guys turn 17 or 18 they jack in the fitba for the drink and drugs. Binge drinking just doesnt seem to be an aspiration for teenagers in the likes of Spain or Italy. FWIW I also think a downside of getting kids involved so early (Ive heard of wee ones being sent to fitba "coaching" at 3 and 4) is that when they hit 17 or 18 theyve been playing organised fitba for so long theyve got bored with the game.

As for academies,any trainings only as good as the coach taking it. And that imo is the major problem. There are too few ex pros in Scotland willing to get involved in coaching youngsters and too many clueless maybury league radges coaching youngsters in Scotland.

[blackpoolhibs]

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Maradonna is the exception rather than the rule. It's a total myth that all South Americans are street kids and from shanty towns who learned football playing with a tine can in bare feet. The only other example i can think of in recent years is Rivaldo who came from absolute poverty hence his bandy legs caused by rickets.

Most of the other prominent Brazilians and Argentinians in football today have either come from reasonably decent neighbourhoods. Kaka, Ronaldinho and Robinho being key examples. Even the like of Messi who came from a poor family was looked after by Barcelona from the age of 13.

Good facilities and more importantly good scouts with the right philosophy produce good players. Scottish football has to lose the mentality that to be decent you need to be physical. Billy Stark, the head of youth football in the country, admitted that Xavi and Iniesta would have struggled to get picked up in Scotland because they wouldn't have been physically able to cope with the game here. Some of the comments on this forum prove his views aren't isolated but rather integral to the Scottish view on football.

France proved that a complete overhaul of the system doesn't have to take an age. After the disasters of the early 1990s they put a scouting structure in place to ensure that no young player slipped through the net, they built a state of the art academy and insisted top flight clubs invest heavily in youth football. They also implemented a rule that made clubs play French youngsters in domestic cup competitions, Monaco unleashed 2 unknown youngsters by the names of David Trezeguet and Thierry Henry thanks to this rule. Within 6 years of these changes France were World Cup winners, 2 years later they added the European Championsips.

The Dutch again focussed heavily on youth in the 1970s and went on to produce a constant conveyor belt of talent which continues to this day. Van Der Sar, Davids, Seedorf, Van Basten, Van Nistelrooy, Van Persie, the De Boer brothers, Kluivert etc etc all came through the academies of Holland.

You only have to look at the basic technical abilitiy of most Eastern European teams to see how a decent philosophy can build a competitive team. They get the ball down, let it do the work, kepp it on the ground and if theres no pass on they constantly recycle the ball until they have an option. Unirea Uricezni played Rangers of the park at Ibrox by simply having players who have a decent first touch and who could make a simple 10 yard pass. Rangers had players who could win a physical battle but because Unirea could move the ball so quickly there was no physical battle.

Good pitches, good facilities and the right philosophy might not produce Scotland a Maradonna but it will produce us plenty more in the mould of Darren Fletcher which would be a pretty good start.

[Hibbyradge]

Interesting debate.

However, there is no single panacea for all our ails.

One thing I definitely believe is that the people in charge of Scottish football must change their philosophy and their attitude to the game at every level.

If we keep doing the same things, why are we surprised when we keep getting the same results?

[snooky]

:notworthy:

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Maradonna is the exception rather than the rule. It's a total myth that all South Americans are street kids and from shanty towns who learned football playing with a tine can in bare feet. The only other example i can think of in recent years is Rivaldo who came from absolute poverty hence his bandy legs caused by rickets.

Most of the other prominent Brazilians and Argentinians in football today have either come from reasonably decent neighbourhoods. Kaka, Ronaldinho and Robinho being key examples. Even the like of Messi who came from a poor family was looked after by Barcelona from the age of 13.

Good facilities and more importantly good scouts with the right philosophy produce good players. Scottish football has to lose the mentality that to be decent you need to be physical. Billy Stark, the head of youth football in the country, admitted that Xavi and Iniesta would have struggled to get picked up in Scotland because they wouldn't have been physically able to cope with the game here. Some of the comments on this forum prove his views aren't isolated but rather integral to the Scottish view on football.

France proved that a complete overhaul of the system doesn't have to take an age. After the disasters of the early 1990s they put a scouting structure in place to ensure that no young player slipped through the net, they built a state of the art academy and insisted top flight clubs invest heavily in youth football. They also implemented a rule that made clubs play French youngsters in domestic cup competitions, Monaco unleashed 2 unknown youngsters by the names of David Trezeguet and Thierry Henry thanks to this rule. Within 6 years of these changes France were World Cup winners, 2 years later they added the European Championsips.

The Dutch again focussed heavily on youth in the 1970s and went on to produce a constant conveyor belt of talent which continues to this day. Van Der Sar, Davids, Seedorf, Van Basten, Van Nistelrooy, Van Persie, the De Boer brothers, Kluivert etc etc all came through the academies of Holland.

You only have to look at the basic technical abilitiy of most Eastern European teams to see how a decent philosophy can build a competitive team. They get the ball down, let it do the work, kepp it on the ground and if theres no pass on they constantly recycle the ball until they have an option. Unirea Uricezni played Rangers of the park at Ibrox by simply having players who have a decent first touch and who could make a simple 10 yard pass. Rangers had players who could win a physical battle but because Unirea could move the ball so quickly there was no physical battle.

Good pitches, good facilities and the right philosophy might not produce Scotland a Maradonna but it will produce us plenty more in the mould of Darren Fletcher which would be a pretty good start.

I believe that at one time Norway were losing heavily on a regular basis that the government decided they would either withdraw from all international competitions or pump money into the game. They chose the latter and the Norway side rose to a very respectable standard.
I'm not saying investment into the grass roots of the game isn't the solution. It's part of it and, despite what people say, IMO Neil <spit> Lennon was only making the point that money investment isn't everything - i.e. sow's ears & silk purses.

[crewetollhibee]

Henry McLeish quoted as saying £500 million would be needed from the Scottish Parliament. That's the SAME amount they allocated to Edinburgh's crazy tram system !!!!!! Priorities eh ?

[NAE NOOKIE]

A few folk have posted about the fact that playing football on a bad surface, The street, waste ground etc makes you a better player.

There is something in that probably. I think the Brazilians address this problem by getting their kids to play for most of the time with a ball thats about a third of the size of a regulation ball.

When I was at school ( a while ago now ) we played in the playground, or on a hockey pitch with a tennis ball.

I never got above pub league level, but at least I could trap a ball and do a few tricks.

I remember when I was about 14 there was a TV prog where Pele was showing how to do some tricks. One was how to flick a ball from between your feet over your head from behind and volley it as it came down in front of you.

Me and a mate of mine practiced for hours and hours until we could do that trick.

Cant remember who said it now, but the adage ' the more I practice the luckier I get ' has a lot to be said for it.

[crewetollhibee]

It was Gary Player.

[Jim44]

Despite the general hatred of Celtic and Lennon, I hope they manage to get it together today to beat D.Utd. as the unthinkable likelihood of United getting second place and putting Ross County into Europe could become a real threat to our chances of European football next season.

[basehibby]

What a contentious fud Lennon is showing himself to be.

There's glaringly obvious benefits from summer football that are particularly of benefit to northern countries like Scotland - it's obvious to any 8 year old with a reasonable grasp of geography that this wouldn't really apply to Brazil and South Africa with their tropical climates.

Not so obvious to the likes of Lennon it would seem

As far as good facilities are concerned it's fair comment that these aren't the whole answer, but to just dismiss them as of no consequence in this crass manner is the folly of someone who's potato headed appearance would seem to be no coincidence - reflecting as it does the contents of his heid!