Relegate clubs with unsustainable debts

[jgl07]

An interesting musing from Brian Mawhinney on stepping down as Chairman of the English Football League:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/8608434.stm

"But in his final address Mawhinney went even further, suggesting a 'Fit to Trade' framework to deal with unsustainable debt with relegation to a lower division the punishment rather than a points deduction."

Has anyone in Scotland suggested such a course of action?

[Woody1985]

Did he have the balls to suggest it before he stepped down?

[Franck is God]

I would certainly back any plan that would not allow a club to spend beyond a reasonable percentage of its income on playing staff however if a club is in serious financial difficulties a potentially undeserved relegation is hardly likely to increase the quality of the league that they have left or help them solve their problem.

There is no easy or quick fix to this problem but something must be done to force clubs to live within their means.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I cant really think of any Scottish clubs that are spending beyond their means at the moment.

Can somebody tell me the names, as I think their fans should be told about this to give them a chance to save their club. It's only decent, and I would want someone to tell me if Hibs were in danger of sailing down the Swanee in a canoe, or even a submarine.

[Peevemor]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I would certainly back any plan that would not allow a club to spend beyond a reasonable percentage of its income on playing staff however if a club is in serious financial difficulties a potentially undeserved relegation is hardly likely to increase the quality of the league that they have left or help them solve their problem.

There is no easy or quick fix to this problem but something must be done to force clubs to live within their means.

It's meant to be a deterrent to getting into trouble in the first place.

[Franck is God]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

It's meant to be a deterrent to getting into trouble in the first place.

I understand it is a deterrent to avoid these situations but the rules are regarding clubs being declared insolvent not spending beyond their means.

The current rules have nothing to do with spending beyond their means only a punishment for getting caught out.

Look at Hearts right now, massive debt, no real way of paying it back but until they are declared insolvent or Vlad walks away and leaves them high and dry they are guilty of nothing at all.

Essentially the only way out of this would be to create a new league structure that is so lucrative that all the clubs would want to join, then the joining criteria would have to include strict rules regarding income and expenditure. It'll never happen though, too many clubs in Scotland and England would lose out and you would have to move to a more American style franchise system for it to work properly.

[Diclonius]

UEFA should ban all in-debt clubs from Europe.

Just watch, they'll magically pay them all off within a year.

[Martin]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Has anyone in Scotland suggested such a course of action?

If they did it would be a 3 team SPL. Hibs, St Mirren and Falkirk.

[greenlex]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

If they did it would be a 3 team SPL. Hibs, St Mirren and Falkirk.

My thoughts eggsactly.

[Martin]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

My thoughts eggsactly.

No doubt we'd finish 2nd

[Diclonius]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

No doubt we'd finish 2nd

You kidding me? Not with this clueless bunch of jokers. 4th at best.

[jgl07]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I understand it is a deterrent to avoid these situations but the rules are regarding clubs being declared insolvent not spending beyond their means.

The current rules have nothing to do with spending beyond their means only a punishment for getting caught out.

Look at Hearts right now, massive debt, no real way of paying it back but until they are declared insolvent or Vlad walks away and leaves them high and dry they are guilty of nothing at all.

The least that should be done is to try an prevent another Gretna type situation.

They were the worst offenders and were allowed into the SPL despite the crackpot idea of playing matches in Motherwell and not financial stability other than their chairman signing the cheques. The only problem was that his (now insolvent) company did not have the cash to back his grandiose ideas.

Livingston are a similar example of a club with 2,000 supporters outspending teams such as Hibs and getting in the UEFA cup and winning the League Cup (the latter whilst actually in administration).

The other problem with the lower reaches of Scottish football is trying to run a full time set up with 1,000 supporters. Most of the part time clubs tend to live within their means.

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Essentially the only way out of this would be to create a new league structure that is so lucrative that all the clubs would want to join, then the joining criteria would have to include strict rules regarding income and expenditure. It'll never happen though, too many clubs in Scotland and England would lose out and you would have to move to a more American style franchise system for it to work properly.

Maybe restructuring of Scottish Football with a 16 team SPL plus a 22 team SFL and a regional structure below.

Make a full time setup and financial guarantees a precondition for accession into the SPL.

[dangermouse]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The least that should be done is to try an prevent another Gretna type situation.

They were the worst offenders and were allowed into the SPL despite the crackpot idea of playing matches in Motherwell and not financial stability other than their chairman signing the cheques. The only problem was that his (now insolvent) company did not have the cash to back his grandiose ideas.

Livingston are a similar example of a club with 2,000 supporters outspending teams such as Hibs and getting in the UEFA cup and winning the League Cup (the latter whilst actually in administration).

The other problem with the lower reaches of Scottish football is trying to run a full time set up with 1,000 supporters. Most of the part time clubs tend to live within their means.


Maybe restructuring of Scottish Football with a 16 team SPL plus a 22 team SFL and a regional structure below.

Make a full time setup and financial guarantees a precondition for accession into the SPL.

Which 4 teams would get left out?

[Woody1985]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Which 4 teams would get left out?

Presumably the ****test 4 in the league at that point who'd then go into their regional league.

I think that the second division could be reduced further, to say 18 teams, with more regional fixtures.

[WindyMiller]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Presumably the ****test 4 in the league at that point who'd then go into their regional league.

I think that the second division could be reduced further, to say 18 teams, with more regional fixtures.

I was thinking that on Tuesday when the results came in.
Ross County at home to QOS.
Elgin at home to Annan.( IIRC).
The leagues outside the SPL should be regional.

[Toaods]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

If they did it would be a 3 team SPL. Hibs, St Mirren and Falkirk.

yogi said "if you're offering me third place now, I'll shake yer hand on it."

[BenjiOscar]

I think the key message here is 'unsustainable debt'. There are clubs who have debts that on the face of it are quite considerable but are sustainable, e.g. Arsenal's debt in building the Emirates.That is an example of significant capital expenditure for the right reason.

You've then got clubs like Rangers who have heavy debt that was accrued for the wrong reasons, i.e. it was simply an attempt to buy success. I don't know if any debt is actually being repaid or if the interest is simply being serviced. They're still in a precarious position though.

Then in La La Land it's the Yams whose debt is such that in any other business sector they'd have been wound-up long ago. Surely these jokers should be targeted first for relegation / points deduction / liquidation.

We've seen a number of clubs in other countries relegated / dissolved due to their financial position and breach of rules. Surely now is the time for the SPL to introduce stringent financial parameters that will not allow such financial negligence to be permitted.

[WindyMiller]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I think the key message here is 'unsustainable debt'. There are clubs who have debts that on the face of it are quite considerable but are sustainable, e.g. Arsenal's debt in building the Emirates.That is an example of significant capital expenditure for the right reason.

You've then got clubs like Rangers who have heavy debt that was accrued for the wrong reasons, i.e. it was simply an attempt to buy success. I don't know if any debt is actually being repaid or if the interest is simply being serviced. They're still in a precarious position though.

Then in La La Land it's the Yams whose debt is such that in any other business sector they'd have been wound-up long ago. Surely these jokers should be targeted first for relegation / points deduction / liquidation.

We've seen a number of clubs in other countries relegated / dissolved due to their financial position and breach of rules. Surely now is the time for the SPL to introduce stringent financial parameters that will not allow such financial negligence to be permitted.

As yet Hertz are still afloat, and as long as they don't default on any payments within the our football world, will be left to get on with it.
The SFA/SPL won't care about the Den Mothers and the small local businesses who might have to wait a long time for their money.

[Phil D. Rolls]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I think the key message here is 'unsustainable debt'. There are clubs who have debts that on the face of it are quite considerable but are sustainable, e.g. Arsenal's debt in building the Emirates.That is an example of significant capital expenditure for the right reason.

You've then got clubs like Rangers who have heavy debt that was accrued for the wrong reasons, i.e. it was simply an attempt to buy success. I don't know if any debt is actually being repaid or if the interest is simply being serviced. They're still in a precarious position though.

Then in La La Land it's the Yams whose debt is such that in any other business sector they'd have been wound-up long ago. Surely these jokers should be targeted first for relegation / points deduction / liquidation.

We've seen a number of clubs in other countries relegated / dissolved due to their financial position and breach of rules. Surely now is the time for the SPL to introduce stringent financial parameters that will not allow such financial negligence to be permitted.

No club with its own war memorial could ever be wound up.