The 2007 "Revolt"

[RIP]

Anyone got any links, genuine facts, inside information?

What I'd like to know is

1. What was the revolt about?
2. Was it justified?
3. Were there just one or two complainers - or was it more than that?
4. What was Rob Jones role?
5. What was John Collins like to work for?
6. To what extent was it exaggerated by the Weegie Meejia to avoid a 2-cup double?
7. What was Wullie McKay's role if any?
8. What was Keith Jackson's role if any?

[Stevie Reid]

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Anyone got any links, genuine facts, inside information?

What I'd like to know is

1. What was the revolt about?
2. Was it justified?
3. Were there just one or two complainers - or was it more than that?
4. What was Rob Jones role?
5. What was John Collins like to work for?
6. To what extent was it exaggerated by the Weegie Meejia to avoid a 2-cup double?
7. What was Wullie McKay's role if any?
8. What was Keith Jackson's role if any?

A quick search found this: -

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle1663009.ece

I'm at work but will try to find more over the afternoon.

[Stevie Reid]

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A quick search found this: -

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle1663009.ece

I'm at work but will try to find more over the afternoon.

There's a bit more here too: -

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle1658214.ece

"The remarkable split between Collins and some of his team, just four weeks after they were united in celebrations after winning the CIS Insurance Cup on this very ground to secure Hibernian’s first silverware in 16 years, had been played out on the back pages of newspapers all last week. Collins learnt of the unrest when he returned from two days’ holiday in France to discover 19 players had used his absence to complain to Rod Petrie, the chief executive, about Collins’s training regime and methods."

[RIP]

Thanks Stevie - good to read

Although, as I suspected it doesn't answer any of the questions in my post.

Are we left with conjecture, or do any of our Hibs Net "insiders" know any more?

[--------]

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Thanks Stevie - good to read

Although, as I suspected it doesn't answer any of the questions in my post.

Are we left with conjecture, or do any of our Hibs Net "insiders" know any more?

I don't think anyone knows who's likely to spill the beans anytime soon.

Seems to me, though, that that was where our troubles began - or maybe a few months earlier when KT and Brown hooked up with McKay. We haven't been right, or anything like right, since.

[Hibs On Tour]

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Anyone got any links, genuine facts, inside information?

What I'd like to know is

1. What was the revolt about?
2. Was it justified?
3. Were there just one or two complainers - or was it more than that?
4. What was Rob Jones role?
5. What was John Collins like to work for?
6. To what extent was it exaggerated by the Weegie Meejia to avoid a 2-cup double?
7. What was Wullie McKay's role if any?
8. What was Keith Jackson's role if any?

What I was told, by two people within the club at the time, was this:


What was the revolt about?

JC's training - they reckoned it was taking the players backwards in terms of fitness and as players - they were concerned that it was damaging the team and its chances of success. They said the players wanted the best for the club and obviously for themselves in the way of progressing as players - they felt that it was going downhill fast and that something needed done. They said that the players had raised their concerns with JC during the trip abroad and that he flat refused to discuss the matter with them. They felt this left them with no option but to go above his head with it and speak to RP.

Was it justified?

Dunno. Unless you were actually there who can tell. Anyway, that's like asking two people their opinion on a painting. There are no real right and wrong answers...

Were there just one or two complainers - or was it more than that?

Most of the team is what I heard.

What was Rob Jones role?

They didn't go into any real details about RJ or any other individual...

What was John Collins like to work for?

They said he was aloof and didn't take the time to cultivate relationships with anyone at ER. Think to a certain extent this may have been exaggerated by how TM was [who seemed to take the time to know everyone on first-name terms and made a point of always letting onto them]

To what extent was it exaggerated by the Weegie Meejia to avoid a 2-cup double?

As far as I could tell at the time, very little although they no doubt would have if they needed to...

What was Wullie McKay's role if any?

Zip - as far as I know...

What was Keith Jackson's role if any?

Ditto.

PS - fair bit paranoia seeping in there no, 49?

PPS - as I say, this is how it was retold to me by two people inside ER at the time - don't shoot the messenger!

[Andy74]

The way I'd heard it was after the Hearts game where we lost after winning the cup, some of the players went out and got drunk (and I met a few out and can confirm that bit!) and were also hung over at training the next day.

Collins was understandably upset at this but some of the players turned it back round saying under him they didn't have any opportunity to unwind as he had given them strict instructions on time off and what to do and not to do.

At this point they also dragged up the issue of having gone abroad and again not been allowed any time to enjoy themselves outside training.

I gather Collins was pretty rigid in saying that they could either stick to his rules or they could leave which prompted a lot of unhappinesss as they felt he wasn't being flexible in any way.

So, a group of players decided that if Collins wasn't listening they would complain to Petrie. I think some were more keen that others and many just got caught up in it.

I think some of the players got it wrong, Sproule for example is held up as a hero on here yet he was out drinking hours after an abysmal showing against Hearts and in a poor state to train for a semi final against Dunfermline a few days later.

I can confirm bits and pieces of that but the rest is just what I heard.

[Perspective]

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The way I'd heard it was after the Hearts game where we lost after winning the cup, some of the players went out and got drunk (and I met a few out and can confirm that bit!) and were also hung over at training the next day.

Collins was understandably upset at this but some of the players turned it back round saying under him they didn't have any opportunity to unwind as he had given them strict instructions on time off and what to do and not to do.

At this point they also dragged up the issue of having gone abroad and again not been allowed any time to enjoy themselves outside training.

I gather Collins was pretty rigid in saying that they could either stick to his rules or they could leave which prompted a lot of unhappinesss as they felt he wasn't being flexible in any way.

So, a group of players decided that if Collins wasn't listening they would complain to Petrie. I think some were more keen that others and many just got caught up in it.

I think some of the players got it wrong, Sproule for example is held up as a hero on here yet he was out drinking hours after an abysmal showing against Hearts and in a poor state to train for a semi final against Dunfermline a few days later.

I can confirm bits and pieces of that but the rest is just what I heard.

That's a crucial line. People get carried away with the number involved but there was a small group of players at the centre of it and a good few who tagged along to see what was happening.

Another group refused to attend because of their support of Collins.

I tend to come down on Collins' side on the whole issue and he conducted himself with great dignity throughout the whole mess.

Not saying he shouldn't have made slight concessions with his style of management, but the fact is his Hibs team were amongst the fittest and most tactically switched on team I've seen in green. That win at Ibrox was almost perfect football. It's also rubbish to say he didn't cultivate relationships with players - because many have been outspoken in their belief that his man-management skills were excellent. Young players thrived under his tutelage that have gone backwards since, he would train one-on-one with players to bring them on and I still see his reign as an opportunity missed to modernise.

Think Yogi has a lot of the same principles, as it happens. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.

[RoslinInstHibby]

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That's a crucial line. People get carried away with the number involved but there was a small group of players at the centre of it and a good few who tagged along to see what was happening.

Another group refused to attend because of their support of Collins.

I tend to come down on Collins' side on the whole issue and he conducted himself with great dignity throughout the whole mess.

Not saying he shouldn't have made slight concessions with his style of management, but the fact is his Hibs team were amongst the fittest and most tactically switched on team I've seen in green. That win at Ibrox was almost perfect football. It's also rubbish to say he didn't cultivate relationships with players - because many have been outspoken in their belief that his man-management skills were excellent. Young players thrived under his tutelage that have gone backwards since, he would train one-on-one with players to bring them on and I still see his reign as an opportunity missed to modernise.

Think Yogi has a lot of the same principles, as it happens. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.

yep, i would agree with all of that

[Stevie Reid]

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That's a crucial line. People get carried away with the number involved but there was a small group of players at the centre of it and a good few who tagged along to see what was happening.

Another group refused to attend because of their support of Collins.

I tend to come down on Collins' side on the whole issue and he conducted himself with great dignity throughout the whole mess.

Not saying he shouldn't have made slight concessions with his style of management, but the fact is his Hibs team were amongst the fittest and most tactically switched on team I've seen in green. That win at Ibrox was almost perfect football. It's also rubbish to say he didn't cultivate relationships with players - because many have been outspoken in their belief that his man-management skills were excellent. Young players thrived under his tutelage that have gone backwards since, he would train one-on-one with players to bring them on and I still see his reign as an opportunity missed to modernise.

Think Yogi has a lot of the same principles, as it happens. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.

I agree with much of what you have said there.

IMO, and I said this on the Rob Jones thread as well, the bottom line is how the **** can a group of players, however small, raise such a grievance a month after winning a trophy and immediately before a SC semi final that we had a great chance of winning? I could almost cry when I think back to how close the already-relegated Dunfermline ran Celtic in that final.

We had an excellent chance of adding 3rd place and at least another cup final appearance that season (which would've been a major achievement in itself) to the CIS win - regardless of what these players believed the long term effects of JC's management may be, there could be no argument that the results around that time were bringing success to the club. The guys that led the revolt proved that they were in it for themselves, not Hibs, and derailed a season of potentially unprecedented success.

[Peevemor]

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I agree with much of what you have said there.

IMO, and I said this on the Rob Jones thread as well, the bottom line is how the **** can a group of players, however small, raise such a grievance a month after winning a trophy and immediately before a SC semi final that we had a great chance of winning? I could almost cry when I think back to how close the already-relegated Dunfermline ran Celtic in that final.

We had an excellent chance of adding 3rd place and at least another cup final appearance that season - regardless of what these players believed the long term effects of JC's management may be, there could be no argument that the results around that time were bringing success to the club. The guys that led the revolt proved that they were in it for themselves, not Hibs, and derailed and a season of potentially unprecedented success.

Our league results after the final weren't great.

[Andy74]

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I agree with much of what you have said there.

IMO, and I said this on the Rob Jones thread as well, the bottom line is how the **** can a group of players, however small, raise such a grievance a month after winning a trophy and immediately before a SC semi final that we had a great chance of winning? I could almost cry when I think back to how close the already-relegated Dunfermline ran Celtic in that final.

We had an excellent chance of adding 3rd place and at least another cup final appearance that season (which would've been a major achievement in itself) to the CIS win - regardless of what these players believed the long term effects of JC's management may be, there could be no argument that the results around that time were bringing success to the club. The guys that led the revolt proved that they were in it for themselves, not Hibs, and derailed a season of potentially unprecedented success.

That's why I was severely hacked off to see a few of them out that night. It was only a few days before the semi, they had just allowed Hearts to spoil their cup celebration and they honestly couldn't care less. What was on their mind was having some time to get a few drinks and strippers in.

Sadly I don't think many of the players have changed their outlook that much.

[Stevie Reid]

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Our league results after the final weren't great.

My main point is that we had just won a trophy, and were in the semi final of another - visible and tangible success from the manager's methods (have we been in a semi final since then, incidentally?)

The league position was still healthy. And judging by Andy's post above, the revolt was rooted in certain players getting in a nick after the Hearts defeat immediately after the final.

[Stevie Reid]

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That's why I was severely hacked off to see a few of them out that night. It was only a few days before the semi, they had just allowed Hearts to spoil their cup celebration and they honestly couldn't care less. What was on their mind was having some time to get a few drinks and strippers in.

Sadly I don't think many of the players have changed their outlook that much.

Very true. I wonder how many footballers these days sign a 3 year contract and expect to still be managed by the same person, should they see it out.

[Golden Bear]

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That's why I was severely hacked off to see a few of them out that night. It was only a few days before the semi, they had just allowed Hearts to spoil their cup celebration and they honestly couldn't care less. What was on their mind was having some time to get a few drinks and strippers in.

Sadly I don't think many of the players have changed their outlook that much.

I've absolutely no evidence to suggest that this is the case but for some reason I get the feeling that all is not well behind the scenes.

[Cropley10]

I seem to recall we went on a shocking run after the CIS - didn't we go 12 without a win? JC kept playing the Cup Final team and we couldn't buy a win IIRC.

Interestingly the only players left from his reign are Lewis, McCann, Hogg, Benji and Zouma. But we still seem to have the same not-really-very-professional attitude.

As for JC he's the last manager I can recall making unforced, tactical substitutions. Seems as if forays into the transfer market and the fall out from the revolt did for him in the end.

I still think it's a shame.

[Stevie Reid]

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I seem to recall we went on a shocking run after the CIS - didn't we go 12 without a win? JC kept playing the Cup Final team and we couldn't buy a win IIRC.

Interestingly the only players left from his reign are Lewis, McCann, Hogg, Benji and Zouma. But we still seem to have the same not-really-very-professional attitude.

As for JC he's the last manager I can recall making unforced, tactical substitutions. Seems as if forays into the transfer market and the fall out from the revolt did for him in the end.

I still think it's a shame.

I do think that Collins could be guilty of picking his starting eleven to suit the opposition all the time when it wasn't necessary (sometimes a winning team should be kept together imo) - but he was a forward thinking manager and certainly wasn't afraid to change things.

As you say, his transfer record wasn't great, but the fact that the revolt left an indelible mark on the history of his brief period as manager of Hibs is a real, real shame.

[GreenPJ]

Re an ealier post if the players honestly thought their fitness was going down where do they think it was under Mixu or Yogi. I don't think I have seen a fitter team than under JC. That doesn't make them good necessarily but it means they should be able to compete/fight for the full 90 mins and there was pace and acceleration in the team.

[Stevie Reid]

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Re an ealier post if the players honestly thought their fitness was going down where do they think it was under Mixu or Yogi. I don't think I have seen a fitter team than under JC. That doesn't make them good necessarily but it means they should be able to compete/fight for the full 90 mins and there was pace and acceleration in the team.

We made quite a few comebacks from 2 goals down under JC as well.

[BEEJ]

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What was the revolt about?

JC's training - they reckoned it was taking the players backwards in terms of fitness and as players - they were concerned that it was damaging the team and its chances of success. They said the players wanted the best for the club and obviously for themselves in the way of progressing as players - they felt that it was going downhill fast and that something needed done. They said that the players had raised their concerns with JC during the trip abroad and that he flat refused to discuss the matter with them. They felt this left them with no option but to go above his head with it and speak to RP.

Speaking to a couple of players that year, their main gripe was that training was predictable and boring, lacking variety. Under Mowbray the training regime had apparently been mixed and varied and therefore more enjoyable.

Their other main complaint was that "Collins expected us to behave like gentlemen, but treated us like kids."

[jacomo]

My take on it is that, after winning the Cup, the players somehow felt they deserved the rest of the season off.

(Incidentally, the same thing happened at Spurs after they won the League Cup under Ramos - they were abysmal for the rest of the season. This is another club with a proud past that has lost its winning mentality.)

Tactically, Collins was a great manager, and he was an excellent coach too, with exacting standards.

Had his signings worked out better then he might still be manager. But O'Brien, Kerr and others were poor, and his pleading to the Board for a bigger budget fell on deaf ears.

[hibsbollah]

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I seem to recall we went on a shocking run after the CIS - didn't we go 12 without a win? JC kept playing the Cup Final team and we couldn't buy a win IIRC.

Interestingly the only players left from his reign are Lewis, McCann, Hogg, Benji and Zouma. But we still seem to have the same not-really-very-professional attitude.

As for JC he's the last manager I can recall making unforced, tactical substitutions. Seems as if forays into the transfer market and the fall out from the revolt did for him in the end.

I still think it's a shame.

AbsolutelyNeither Mixu nor Yogi seemed(s) to be able to make substitutions creatively. Collins sometimes got it wrong, but at least he tried. I know what Yogi's subs are going to be before he's made them, so the opposing manager probably does too.

[HFC 0-7]

From what I heard going on at the time was Collins wanted to fine certain players for drinking after a game and getting in a state. Petrie, apparently never carried through the fines on the basis that the players werent told about drinking rules and that some players went out, had a drink and were in a perfectly fit state the next day whereas others were well hung over. Petrie couldnt exactly fine the players that had a couple when they were not told they couldnt. Meanwhile JC was trying to change the diet, training methods and mind sets which annoyed many, and when JC went on holiday and Petrie taking their sides around fines they felt safe to go to Petrie and complain.

IMO, JC had it right in terms of how they should conduct themselves and the training methods, he just didnt have the skills to bring it through slowly. I always got the feeling he never had much patience for anything. As for the players, they seemed to feel that they were doing enough and didnt want to change after they won the cup, but JC had different ideas and wanted to kick on.

Obviously this may be inaccurate but a lot of this is from people close to the club and from a mate who works for the papers.

[johnbc70]

I wanted Collins to stay as I think, given the time, he would have brought together a group of professional footballers who had the same ideas and philosophy as himself i.e. work hard, be as fit as I can be and live my life in the way a professional athlete should do. This would have in my opinion started to show dividends on the park and he would have built up a team with winners in it, or at the very least a bunch of players who would give their best week in and week out and live their life dedicated to improving themselves as a footballer.

I felt the whole revolt was a disgrace and the players really let themselves down and should be very ashamed. Another problem we have is that players are professional footballers so very few actually hold any affinity for the club they are playing for and they will behave accordingly i.e. getting drunk up town after a defeat by Hearts and days before an important semi-final.

[Jamesie]

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I tend to come down on Collins' side on the whole issue and he conducted himself with great dignity throughout the whole mess.

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Young players thrived under his tutelage that have gone backwards since, he would train one-on-one with players to bring them on and I still see his reign as an opportunity missed to modernise.

I remember being in Shanghai nightclub, on a Saturday night some time in mid 2007, and speaking to a tee-total Lewis Stevenson who told me he had to be up early on the Sunday morning to go running round Arthurs Seat with JC and, IIRC, Kevin McCann. I wonder if such extra-cirricular activities are undertaken by the current management?

John Collins was the last football manager to be in charge at Easter Road and I have no doubt that in the fullness of time the history of Hibernian FC will record that his departure was a major step back for the club.

[Jamesie]

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I felt the whole revolt was a disgrace and the players really let themselves down and should be very ashamed. Another problem we have is that players are professional footballers so very few actually hold any affinity for the club they are playing for and they will behave accordingly i.e. getting drunk up town after a defeat by Hearts and days before an important semi-final.

I think the club doesn't do enough to instil what Hibernian is all about into our players. I would have any new player in for a week of afternoon sessions with somebody like Alan Lugton or Tom Wright to give an introduction to the history of the club and just what Hibs are all about. I very much doubt anything of the kind goes on at Easter Road these days.

[hibsdaft]

seeing as its a few years on and such things are being discussed...

Collins DID show his abs off.

[Jamesie]

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seeing as its a few years on and such things are being discussed...

Collins DID show his abs off.

Did he not also challenge the whole first team squad to a 100m metre sprint and beat them all, or is that just legend?

[TheMentalHibees]

A few years down the line, I'd have Collins back. He has the right mentality and IMO, if given an extended period of time, he could bring sustained success to the club. But as has been said above, Yogi has a lot of the same traits as Collins, and he has my full backing.

[hibsdaft]

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Did he not also challenge the whole first team squad to a 100m metre sprint and beat them all, or is that just legend?

don't remember that one actually.

btw the abs one is 100%. that happened.