Racism - Follow Up

[Phil D. Rolls]

We were talking about tackling racism last week. I had a good experience on this count today.

A guy behind me got a bit carried away and called the Celtic goalie a Polish ********, I said, "theres no need for that mate", and he acknowledged his error, I let him know I understood, and that was it.

Sometimes all it takes is a wee word. And it's nice to be able to report a positive on this subject.

[Bayern Bru]

Well played Mr Rolls.
I do think sometimes people blurt things out without really thinking - in that they're not "racists" per se, but they've just let something slip. I'm sure there are a few people who have said things without realising how it comes across. Your situation sounds similar to this.

I don't want anyone to think I'm excusing casual racism, but in my opinion and experience there's a difference between racial abuse and a throwaway remark such as the one mentioned.

Additionally the guy's response (if I can play the naive and positive card) suggests it was just a lack of thought rather than a reflection of his views on race.

Nice to see a positive outcome after last week's antics.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Well played Mr Rolls.
I do think sometimes people blurt things out without really thinking - in that they're not "racists" per se, but they've just let something slip. I'm sure there are a few people who have said things without realising how it comes across. Your situation sounds similar to this.

I don't want anyone to think I'm excusing casual racism, but in my opinion and experience there's a difference between racial abuse and a throwaway remark such as the one mentioned.

Additionally the guy's response (if I can play the naive and positive card) suggests it was just a lack of thought rather than a reflection of his views on race.

Nice to see a positive outcome after last week's antics.

The Celtic goalie was wasting time, the guy was exasperated and probably added the word "Polish" to emphasise how fed up he was. It wasn't right, but it didn't seem to be malicious.

Like you, I don't want to excuse casual racism, but the fact that guy acknowledged his mistake certainly made things better. It's the idiots who set out to deliberately be racist and defend their stupidity that get my goat.

Put it this way, you can blurt out "Polish", or "black" as a way of describing the target of your anger. Things like "jungle bunny", or "spear chucker" need a wee bit of thought.

[Jonnyboy]

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We were talking about tackling racism last week. I had a good experience on this count today.

A guy behind me got a bit carried away and called the Celtic goalie a Polish ********, I said, "theres no need for that mate", and he acknowledged his error, I let him know I understood, and that was it.

Sometimes all it takes is a wee word. And it's nice to be able to report a positive on this subject.

If only it were always that straighforward FR. I was told by a regular poster on here that upon hearing a fellow Hibby call Gomis a black b in the United game a decision was taken there and then by the regular poster to remonstrate with said Hibby. Not only was no back up offered to the person complaining, the perpetrator suggested there was nothing wrong with telling the truth.

[Big Frank]

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We were talking about tackling racism last week. I had a good experience on this count today.

A guy behind me got a bit carried away and called the Celtic goalie a Polish ********, I said, "theres no need for that mate", and he acknowledged his error, I let him know I understood, and that was it.

Sometimes all it takes is a wee word. And it's nice to be able to report a positive on this subject.

[hibsbollah]

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Well played Mr Rolls.
I do think sometimes people blurt things out without really thinking - in that they're not "racists" per se, but they've just let something slip. I'm sure there are a few people who have said things without realising how it comes across. Your situation sounds similar to this.

I don't want anyone to think I'm excusing casual racism, but in my opinion and experience there's a difference between racial abuse and a throwaway remark such as the one mentioned.

Additionally the guy's response (if I can play the naive and positive card) suggests it was just a lack of thought rather than a reflection of his views on race.

Nice to see a positive outcome after last week's antics.

I hope this is encouragement for more fellow Hibbys to challenge it when its heard. No place for it at our club

[Phil D. Rolls]

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If only it were always that straighforward FR. I was told by a regular poster on here that upon hearing a fellow Hibby call Gomis a black b in the United game a decision was taken there and then by the regular poster to remonstrate with said Hibby. Not only was no back up offered to the person complaining, the perpetrator suggested there was nothing wrong with telling the truth.

It's easy to challenge people when you've got back up - which I knew was there.

[Jonnyboy]

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It's easy to challenge people when you've got back up - which I knew was there.

The disappointing thing FR was that the 'guilty party' is probably one of the best known faces in the Hibs support. I won't name and shame him here as I don't think he posts so it would deny him the right to reply. What I will do though is take him to task next time I see him

[HFC 0-7]

This racism thing is a difficult one. people like to jump on the racism thing and throw accusations about. I work in a college and I am continually getting e mails, handouts etc about how to avoid potential problems. A large study was conducted which highlighted a lot of surprising points.

The study focussed mainly on eastern europeans, because of the recent influx of people from these countries coming to the UK. The study asked some fairly direct question and at the end asked for some experiences of racism. Some of the points showed: Most people see eastern europeans as poles. The eastern europeans feel like racism is being highlighted to often in needless circumstances which is having an adverse effect on them in society as people are constantly having to watch what they say.

The main surprise was the question that related to someone insulting them in a mild to medium tone. The options were, insult related to colour. Insult related to nationality and insult related to appearance. Insult to nationality scored the lowest and insult to appearance was the highest in terms of offence caused. Some of the meetings after focussed on the part about us highlighting racism to easily and basically the feeling was that why do we jump on someone calling a person a polish B*strd more than someone calling a person a Bald B*strd? At this point the lecturers quickly swooped to say that the insult to poles was terrible and racist, until a group of eastern europeans said in most circumstances the insults arent meant to cause a lot of harm and when its like that they make no difference as both insults are aimed at something the person can do nothing about. I have been longwinded about this I know, but I thought it would be good to let you know about this as it certainly surprised me. And as for the polish B thing that was shouted at the match, you can usually tell how it was shouted whether the person was being a racist or not.

For me its something I try to keep away from as I think we are highlighting to many things these days as being racist.

[greenlex]

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This racism thing is a difficult one. people like to jump on the racism thing and throw accusations about. I work in a college and I am continually getting e mails, handouts etc about how to avoid potential problems. A large study was conducted which highlighted a lot of surprising points.

The study focussed mainly on eastern europeans, because of the recent influx of people from these countries coming to the UK. The study asked some fairly direct question and at the end asked for some experiences of racism. Some of the points showed: Most people see eastern europeans as poles. The eastern europeans feel like racism is being highlighted to often in needless circumstances which is having an adverse effect on them in society as people are constantly having to watch what they say.

The main surprise was the question that related to someone insulting them in a mild to medium tone. The options were, insult related to colour. Insult related to nationality and insult related to appearance. Insult to nationality scored the lowest and insult to appearance was the highest in terms of offence caused. Some of the meetings after focussed on the part about us highlighting racism to easily and basically the feeling was that why do we jump on someone calling a person a polish B*strd more than someone calling a person a Bald B*strd? At this point the lecturers quickly swooped to say that the insult to poles was terrible and racist, until a group of eastern europeans said in most circumstances the insults arent meant to cause a lot of harm and when its like that they make no difference as both insults are aimed at something the person can do nothing about. I have been longwinded about this I know, but I thought it would be good to let you know about this as it certainly surprised me. And as for the polish B thing that was shouted at the match, you can usually tell how it was shouted whether the person was being a racist or not.

For me its something I try to keep away from as I think we are highlighting to many things these days as being racist.

What if the Pole was Bald and Black?

[brythehibby]

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We were talking about tackling racism last week. I had a good experience on this count today.

A guy behind me got a bit carried away and called the Celtic goalie a Polish ********, I said, "theres no need for that mate", and he acknowledged his error, I let him know I understood, and that was it.

Sometimes all it takes is a wee word. And it's nice to be able to report a positive on this subject.

Spotted that. Sit 2 rows behind the boy. Black jacket? Well played especially as we have our own polish boys that go to the games and also sit in the famous five end. No need for the guys comment IMO.

[HFC 0-7]

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What if the Pole was Bald and Black?

Look, I am only sharing the results of a study which a lot of eastern europeans, blacks, whites etc took part in. The general feeling was that it all depends on how the person is trying to insult someone. They said that in the grand scheme of things an insult directed at them relating to appearance in terms of weight, build, size, haircolour etc they would find more concerning as these are the things that people first see about them.

When it comes to racism, increasingly, people seem to look for it rather than coming across it.

[greenlex]

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Look, I am only sharing the results of a study which a lot of eastern europeans, blacks, whites etc took part in. The general feeling was that it all depends on how the person is trying to insult someone. They said that in the grand scheme of things an insult directed at them relating to appearance in terms of weight, build, size, haircolour etc they would find more concerning as these are the things that people first see about them.

When it comes to racism, increasingly, people seem to look for it rather than coming across it.

Calm doon min I'm only yanking yer chain.

[HFC 0-7]

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Calm doon min I'm only yanking yer chain.

Sorry mate, thought you were havin a go!

[monktonharp]

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What if the Pole was Bald and Black?

that is neither clever , or funny.

[greenlex]

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that is neither clever , or funny.

Sorry I wont do it again.
Edit- actually in the context of the study that is really quite an ironic comment.
2nd edit - Unless you are a bald black pole? If you are I will delete this and the other post.

[the_ginger_hibee]

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When it comes to racism, increasingly, people seem to look for it rather than coming across it.

I think this thread falls into that category. Polish bas***d? Yes in a certain context I could understand it being racist and it's not something I would shout or encourage to shout but I'm still unsure. Similar to calling a referee a black bas***d the insult is the bas***d part not the black or in this case, the Polish part.

If he was from Sweden the guy would have shouted 'Swedish bas***d' if he was English it would be 'English bas***d'. Therefore the nationality part is interchangeable which in turn IMO eliminates the racial part (in this case).

I'd be more insulted if someone called me a Fat bas***d, bald bas***d, ugly bas***d or ginger bas***d (dont get me started on that chestnut) than a Scottish bas***d, and I think most would agree. It's just the fact that racism against Polish people is well documented in this country and a lot of people face on a daily basis polish people and - rightly so, make a concerted effort to not insult them or come over as racist.

Summary - If the guy shouted 'Danish bas***d' I doubt we'd be having this conversation.

Now I await the flak

[ballengeich]

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I think this thread falls into that category. Polish bas***d? Yes in a certain context I could understand it being racist and it's not something I would shout or encourage to shout but I'm still unsure. Similar to calling a referee a black bas***d the insult is the bas***d part not the black or in this case, the Polish part.

If he was from Sweden the guy would have shouted 'Swedish bas***d' if he was English it would be 'English bas***d'. Therefore the nationality part is interchangeable which in turn IMO eliminates the racial part (in this case).

I'd be more insulted if someone called me a Fat bas***d, bald bas***d, ugly bas***d or ginger bas***d (dont get me started on that chestnut) than a Scottish bas***d, and I think most would agree. It's just the fact that racism against Polish people is well documented in this country and a lot of people face on a daily basis polish people and - rightly so, make a concerted effort to not insult them or come over as racist.

Summary - If the guy shouted 'Danish bas***d' I doubt we'd be having this conversation.

Now I await the flak

Not from me, quite the opposite. Boruc is Polish, and probably proud of the fact, so would not be insulted by it, though he might resent allegations about his parents' marital status.

Ruud Gullit once made the same point in an interview, saying that if he was called a black *** it was the *** that offended him as he is indeed black and proud of it.

If you're angry at someone you put in words that identify them - Polish, weegie, ginger, lanky etc. It's not in itself evidence of racism. If someone was shouting abuse at me the word Scottish would be the last thing that would worry me.

[hibeemikey21]

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I think this thread falls into that category. Polish bas***d? Yes in a certain context I could understand it being racist and it's not something I would shout or encourage to shout but I'm still unsure. Similar to calling a referee a black bas***d the insult is the bas***d part not the black or in this case, the Polish part.

If he was from Sweden the guy would have shouted 'Swedish bas***d' if he was English it would be 'English bas***d'. Therefore the nationality part is interchangeable which in turn IMO eliminates the racial part (in this case).

I'd be more insulted if someone called me a Fat bas***d, bald bas***d, ugly bas***d or ginger bas***d (dont get me started on that chestnut) than a Scottish bas***d, and I think most would agree. It's just the fact that racism against Polish people is well documented in this country and a lot of people face on a daily basis polish people and - rightly so, make a concerted effort to not insult them or come over as racist.

Summary - If the guy shouted 'Danish bas***d' I doubt we'd be having this conversation.

Now I await the flak

I agree with you to an extent. Although I never shout these things at games personally, inserting a nationality is just "beefing up" your insult and making it specific. "Hurry up ya *******" just doesn't pack much of a punch. You need another adjective in there and
as you point out, if someone doesn't have any noteworthy physical characteristics to ridicule, nationality is generally the second port
of call (unless they have been a jambo at some stage!). it's merely a way of distinguishing that player. I really don't think there is any malice in these insults.

I don't agree with you that black ******* etc are on the same level. I think when colour is brought into it, it's meant in a malicious and derogatory way.

Do you not agree you Ginger, Scottish *******?

[Bayern Bru]

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Not from me, quite the opposite. Boruc is Polish, and probably proud of the fact, so would not be insulted by it, though he might resent allegations about his marital status.

Ruud Gullit once made the same point in an interview, saying that if he was called a black *** it was the *** that offended him as he is indeed black and proud of it.

If you're angry at someone you put in words that identify them - Polish, weegie, ginger, lanky etc. It's not in itself evidence of racism. If someone was shouting abuse at me the word Scottish would be the last thing that would worry me.

Zaluska on the other hand...

[lEXO]

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I think this thread falls into that category. Polish bas***d? Yes in a certain context I could understand it being racist and it's not something I would shout or encourage to shout but I'm still unsure. Similar to calling a referee a black bas***d the insult is the bas***d part not the black or in this case, the Polish part.

If he was from Sweden the guy would have shouted 'Swedish bas***d' if he was English it would be 'English bas***d'. Therefore the nationality part is interchangeable which in turn IMO eliminates the racial part (in this case).

I'd be more insulted if someone called me a Fat bas***d, bald bas***d, ugly bas***d or ginger bas***d (dont get me started on that chestnut) than a Scottish bas***d, and I think most would agree. It's just the fact that racism against Polish people is well documented in this country and a lot of people face on a daily basis polish people and - rightly so, make a concerted effort to not insult them or come over as racist.

Summary - If the guy shouted 'Danish bas***d' I doubt we'd be having this conversation.

Now I await the flak

****** off ya ginger p***k.

[ballengeich]

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Zaluska on the other hand...

Sorry. I couldn't make it to ER today so jumped to an incorrect assumption. Anyway, are you accusing Zaluska of being an unpatriotic Polish goalkeeper?

[Bayern Bru]

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Sorry. I couldn't make it to ER today so jumped to an incorrect assumption. Anyway, are you accusing Zaluska of being an unpatriotic Polish goalkeeper?

Absolutely.

Nah, was just being unnecessarily pedantic. Totally agree with you though.

[the_ginger_hibee]

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I agree with you to an extent. Although I never shout these things at games personally, inserting a nationality is just "beefing up" your insult and making it specific. "Hurry up ya *******" just doesn't pack much of a punch. You need another adjective in there and
as you point out, if someone doesn't have any noteworthy physical characteristics to ridicule, nationality is generally the second port
of call (unless they have been a jambo at some stage!). it's merely a way of distinguishing that player. I really don't think there is any malice in these insults.

I don't agree with you that black ******* etc are on the same level. I think when colour is brought into it, it's meant in a malicious and derogatory way.

Do you not agree you Ginger, Scottish *******?

I was of course talking about calling a referee a black *******. Chant that used to go about a few years ago in reference to his strip. Not condoning a black ******* chant to a black footballer, because that is 100% racist and is something we would all love to see out of the terraces.

And yes I agree.......erse

[Jones28]

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We were talking about tackling racism last week. I had a good experience on this count today.

A guy behind me got a bit carried away and called the Celtic goalie a Polish ********, I said, "theres no need for that mate", and he acknowledged his error, I let him know I understood, and that was it.

Sometimes all it takes is a wee word. And it's nice to be able to report a positive on this subject.

Well done Sir for standing up to that.

Anyone else notice fans starting to get more and more moaney as the season goes on? Driving me ****ing crazy!! Couple of lower tier west standers kept going on and on a Stokes, Nish and McCormack. None were great but people go to football to support teams not to scream and shout abuse at them!!




**Being an Uber fan I am exempt from any accusations of Abuse of Players

[oldbutdim]

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The disappointing thing FR was that the 'guilty party' is probably one of the best known faces in the Hibs support. I won't name and shame him here as I don't think he posts so it would deny him the right to reply. What I will do though is take him to task next time I see him

Crowther!
No!

[jdships]

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This racism thing is a difficult one. people like to jump on the racism thing and throw accusations about. I work in a college and I am continually getting e mails, handouts etc about how to avoid potential problems. A large study was conducted which highlighted a lot of surprising points.

The study focussed mainly on eastern europeans, because of the recent influx of people from these countries coming to the UK. The study asked some fairly direct question and at the end asked for some experiences of racism. Some of the points showed: Most people see eastern europeans as poles. The eastern europeans feel like racism is being highlighted to often in needless circumstances which is having an adverse effect on them in society as people are constantly having to watch what they say.

The main surprise was the question that related to someone insulting them in a mild to medium tone. The options were, insult related to colour. Insult related to nationality and insult related to appearance. Insult to nationality scored the lowest and insult to appearance was the highest in terms of offence caused. Some of the meetings after focussed on the part about us highlighting racism to easily and basically the feeling was that why do we jump on someone calling a person a polish B*strd more than someone calling a person a Bald B*strd? At this point the lecturers quickly swooped to say that the insult to poles was terrible and racist, until a group of eastern europeans said in most circumstances the insults arent meant to cause a lot of harm and when its like that they make no difference as both insults are aimed at something the person can do nothing about. I have been longwinded about this I know, but I thought it would be good to let you know about this as it certainly surprised me. And as for the polish B thing that was shouted at the match, you can usually tell how it was shouted whether the person was being a racist or not.

For me its something I try to keep away from as I think we are highlighting to many things these days as being racist.

Good post ! Especially the highlighted parts.
I worked all over the world for many years and it would take me a sheet of paper to list the names I have been called for being a Scot.
Some were from drunks , some from would be comedians , some , very few , were openly "racist" .
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder " and as you rightly say you can usually tell how it was said whether the person was being a racist or not.
Southern USA was the worst for me, "Mick's and Jock's" were open season for abuse - wether this was racist or not again was down to how it was said .
Like you I think in many cases "PC" has taken over .

[deano6-2]

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Good post ! Especially the highlighted parts.
I worked all over the world for many years and it would take me a sheet of paper to list the names I have been called for being a Scot.
Some were from drunks , some from would be comedians , some , very few , were openly "racist" .
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder " and as you rightly say you can usually tell how it was said whether the person was being a racist or not.
Southern USA was the worst for me, "Mick's and Jock's" were open season for abuse - wether this was racist or not again was down to how it was said .
Like you I think in many cases "PC" has taken over .

**** those honky yank twats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bighairyfaeleith]

next time we play england, I'll be shouting english *******s plenty

Don't think I would be alone either, weird eh!

[.Sean.]

The 'PC Brigade' would've had a field day at Bolton, lots of 'racism' there, from both sides.