Cowdenbeath and Spartans in merger talks

[Hainan Hibs]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...th/8594141.stm

(I checked the date to see if big Jim Spence was hitting us with an April Fool)

Always had a soft spot for Cowdenbeath so I'd be sad to see them go.

[Diclonius]

As much as I'd like to see another Edinburgh club in the SFL, not at the expense of one of its age old clubs. Shame, really.

[Gatecrasher]

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As much as I'd like to see another Edinburgh club in the SFL, not at the expense of one of its age old clubs. Shame, really.

Agreed and for me another reason why we need promotion into the SFL for clubs like Spartans to reach their potential.

[J-C]

There should be relegation from the 3rd div like they have in England.

[johnrebus]

Will be sad to see Cowdenbeath dissapear and over 100 years of history with them.

Sadly, the Fife town is just another Hun invested carbuncle on the face of Scottish Football.

They won't be the last to go either. This countrys grotesque obsession with the Old Firm will see the game stuck in the mire of mediocrity for the forseeable future.

The house of cards that make up the lower leagues is about to fold.

Stirling Albion will probably be next.

[Diclonius]

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There should be relegation from the 3rd div like they have in England.

Yeah, but I think you're mistaking the SFA, SPL, SFL, SJFA etc etc with a modern organisation.

As long as multiple governing bodies within Scottish football exist, and for as long as no one gives a **** about any other team than Celtic or Rangers, nothing will happen. So that'll be never.

[PaulSmith]

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Agreed and for me another reason why we need promotion into the SFL for clubs like Spartans to reach their potential.

And what is Spartans potential, just curious what peoples thoughts are?

I see them as a club that had some great support from the local authority and now have a great set-up from youth to senior but will be nothing more than a club that flirts with promotion and relegation from Div 2 and Div 3 playing in front of crowds of 500-600 if they achieve SFL status.

Would be a disaster for the Cowdenbeath players as if the merger does go through would the new Cowdenbeath/Spartans club have to start in SFL 3 rather than the 1st division (if they get promotion)

[Gatecrasher]

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And what is Spartans potential, just curious what peoples thoughts are?

I see them as a club that had some great support from the local authority and now have a great set-up from youth to senior but will be nothing more than a club that flirts with promotion and relegation from Div 2 and Div 3 playing in front of crowds of 500-600 if they achieve SFL status.

Would be a disaster for the Cowdenbeath players as if the merger does go through would the new Cowdenbeath/Spartans club have to start in SFL 3 rather than the 1st division (if they get promotion)

I think they (plus a few others) have the potential to make more of a contribution to the SFL than the likes of Elgin and Annan, i Think they could have the potential to reach the top end of Div 2 and mid table Div 1, Whatever Potential the do reach i think scottish football should be set up to allow teams like this the oppertunity to play SFL football and avoid situations like this.

[Leithenhibby]

My take on this is that a Country the size of Scotland with so many teams is madness. We have too many chiefs and the quicker the leagues are revamped the better.

Hence, we will be stuck in the dark ages for ever as the Muppet's running Scottish football can't see the wood for the trees.

All those different bodies wanting a piece of the action is choking our game to a very, very slow death..

[down-the-slope]

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My take on this is that a Country the size of Scotland with so many teams is madness. We have too many chiefs and the quicker the leagues are revamped the better.

Hence, we will be stuck in the dark ages for ever as the Muppet's running Scottish football can't see the wood for the trees.

All those different bodies wanting a piece of the action is choking our game to a very, very slow death..

except the bit in bold...I think it will be soon and quick, as the knife edge that a great number were on is now cutting due to downturn with less gate / tv / transfer fees filtering down.

[GloryGlory]

Agree with the comments on here re too many clubs, too many bodies, too many time-servers in Scottish football.

It's also good, however, that if a club like Cowdenbeath fails, then ambitious and seemingly well-run clubs like Spartans are able to step up and take their place.

Ross County came up from the Highland League not too long ago, didn't they, (as did ICT and Elgin)? What happened to them, remind me?

[jgl07]

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And what is Spartans potential, just curious what peoples thoughts are?

I see them as a club that had some great support from the local authority and now have a great set-up from youth to senior but will be nothing more than a club that flirts with promotion and relegation from Div 2 and Div 3 playing in front of crowds of 500-600 if they achieve SFL status.

Would be a disaster for the Cowdenbeath players as if the merger does go through would the new Cowdenbeath/Spartans club have to start in SFL 3 rather than the 1st division (if they get promotion)

What gives you that idea?

If there was a merger the new club would take up the place where the higher of the two would have been.

When Airdrie went bust (Division 1) the new Airdrie United club applied the vacancy in Division 3 and lost out to Gretna. They then bought up Clydebank and took their place in Division 2.

[jgl07]

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Agree with the comments on here re too many clubs, too many bodies, too many time-servers in Scottish football.

It's also good, however, that if a club like Cowdenbeath fails, then ambitious and seemingly well-run clubs like Spartans are able to step up and take their place.

Ross County came up from the Highland League not too long ago, didn't they, (as did ICT and Elgin)? What happened to them, remind me?

Gretna came up from the English League system and what happened to them?

[--------]

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Agree with the comments on here re too many clubs, too many bodies, too many time-servers in Scottish football.

It's also good, however, that if a club like Cowdenbeath fails, then ambitious and seemingly well-run clubs like Spartans are able to step up and take their place.

Ross County came up from the Highland League not too long ago, didn't they, (as did ICT and Elgin)? What happened to them, remind me?

I don't think it's so much a case of too many clubs as the absence of an adequate pyramid-system whereby the failing clubs can be replaced by those with genuine potential.

For a small country we have an awful lot of teams in the SFL, in the Juniors, and in the smaller senior professional leagues (like Spartans) with 250-500 regular fans - teams that are going to struggle to develop yet are strong enough to stay around. And those fans aren't going to stop supporting their own team and start supporting an SPL team.

I would think that Fife can realistically support one senior (SPL) team, plus - maybe - a second-ranked side in the lower leagues. In other words, Dunfermline, and either Raith or East Fife, not both. Probably only Dunfermline. So Cowdenbeath may be doing the sensible thing here.

ICT got a lot of help from business and the local authorities in Inverness; they've struggled in spite of this, and One hears things that suggest that everything isn't all sweetness and light at the Caledonian Stadium. Ross County have done things differently, and are a stronger and healthier concern than ICT right now, from what I hear. Elgin and Peterhead aren't making a great fist of things, really. Annan - I just wonder what on earth the powers-that-be were thinking of when they preferred them to teams like Spartans and Gala Fairydean.

Best case scenario for the future of Scottish football? ALL the leagues go bankrupt simultaneously, and we start again, from scratch, after Cetgers and Rantic have self-destructed in their own bile after discovering that not the EPL, nor an "Atlantic League" nor the Irish league, nor the League of Ireland, nor the Championship, nor any other football association or league in the entire wide world wants anything to do with their poisonous sectarian sub-culture.

[Jack]

I think there is the potential for them, Spartans, to become quite well supported when another club of long standing goes to the wall.

Spartan Hearts???

[Bamba]

It is a shame for these long-established clubs to hit the wall. And the sad fact is, no-one is really to blame - Cowdenbeath is too small a place to warrant full-time football. Scotland needs to sweep away this dead wood in order to have a competitive and modern league set up. There are far bigger places in Scotland than Cowdenbeath without a professional outfit and although, they would never rival a city club - they could possibly be more sustainable than Cowdenbeath (11,000 inhabitants)

East Kilbride
Clydebank
Irvine
Glenrothes
Wishaw
Bathgate etc

[Joe Baker II]

Agree with Bamba, however Cowden should not cease to exist, they should be in a lower league. Problem is all these towns have strong junior clubs and generally junior football has no desire to join the Scottish League - and it is hard to blame them given they seem to manage things in junior football better - no absurd ground requirements for one.

[s.a.m]

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I think there is the potential for them, Spartans, to become quite well supported when another club of long standing goes to the wall.

Spartan Hearts???

Or......Spearts? Spare Parts?

[PaulSmith]

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What gives you that idea?

If there was a merger the new club would take up the place where the higher of the two would have been.

When Airdrie went bust (Division 1) the new Airdrie United club applied the vacancy in Division 3 and lost out to Gretna. They then bought up Clydebank and took their place in Division 2.

Keep the knickers on!

So if I win the lottery this week I could potentially buy Coldstream and Hamilton over the weekend, merge them and re-name them PaulSmith-All-Stars and fill it with my mates and have a laugh playing in the SPL for one season.

I wasn't sure of the Airdrie scenario but I would've thought that a club who come into some cash could simply buy a league position through aquiring another club.

[Diclonius]

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Keep the knickers on!

So if I win the lottery this week I could potentially buy Coldstream and Hamilton over the weekend, merge them and re-name them PaulSmith-All-Stars and fill it with my mates and have a laugh playing in the SPL for one season.

I wasn't sure of the Airdrie scenario but I would've thought that a club who come into some cash could simply buy a league position through aquiring another club.

Pretty much.

[Andy74]

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Pretty much.

Surely you could just buy Hamilton and do that - why would you need Coldstream?

[PaulSmith]

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Surely you could just buy Hamilton and do that - why would you need Coldstream?

Andy it was the merger thing that I was getting across rather than just buying a club which is entirely different.

[MSK]

I thought this was a wind up when i read it in the paper last week...

There are however a few arguements from both sides & some valid points already mentioned on this thread.

I wouldnt mind seeing Spartans pit their wits against better or more organised opposition on a weekly basis & im sure many of their supporters, management & players will be excited about this new challenge should it happen.

I do though think it is sad that it takes the demise of an established community club to see Spartans eventually get their dream ..the obvious loss being players, coaching staff & basically anyone on the Cowdenbeath payroll who will more or less be looking for other employment.

There will always be the "romantics" out there who may live in fairytale land & will harbour hopes of Spartans climbing up the leagues in spectacular fashion, demolishing everything in their power to achieve...nah ..

Spartans have though what Cowdenbeath will never have & that is a sound infastructure, from bottom to top they appear to be miles ahead not only of Cowdenbeath but many other clubs that are perhaps hanging on with the skin of their teeth or are perilously close to extinction, Clyde, Stirling Albion, Airdrie United to name but a few.

Spartans also have a tidy new modern ground with training facilities to match & a youth set up that would put many SFL clubs to shame, Cowdenbeath play at a run down ramshackle hovel of a ground that needs thousands of pounds spent on it just to make it semi-decent, sadly though they dont have that money & their demise looks iminent.

Cowdenbeath may still have a very very slim chance of survival though, should one of the other Fife clubs do a u-turn & allow a ground share. For the sake of folk who are employed by the club i hope they do continue to exist but not in the guise of Spartans..i want Spartans to gain league status but through the proper channels, not piggybacking on the mis-fortunes of another club.

[jgl07]

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So if I win the lottery this week I could potentially buy Coldstream and Hamilton over the weekend, merge them and re-name them PaulSmith-All-Stars and fill it with my mates and have a laugh playing in the SPL for one season.

I wasn't sure of the Airdrie scenario but I would've thought that a club who come into some cash could simply buy a league position through aquiring another club.

Well that exactly what Airdrie United did.

And indeed what Clydebank nearly did to East Stirlingshire 45 years ago. They took over Shire and played for one season as ES Clydebank at Kilbowie. They eventually backed down and Clydebank were admitted to the SFL in their own right with Shire returning to Falkirk.

Also how do you think Livingston got into the League other than taking Meadowbank's place.

Franchising it here. It has also happened in England with Wimbledon moving to Milton Keynes.

It happens in US sports all the time. Brooklyn Dodgers moved to Los Angeles (in the 1950s?).

The point here is that the pattern of SPL and SFL matches the situation in the 1920s and 1930s.

There are too many SFL clubs in areas such as Fife. The balance has improved with two or three Highland Leagues coming into the SFL.

There really ought to be a club in the Borders.

However I don't see that a third club in Edinburgh could prosper. Meadowbank failed abysmally. It you take away the complimentary tickets and the visiting support, they were barely making 100 supporters for home matches.

I can't see how Cowdenbeath can survive for long ground sharing. Probably the same with East Stirlingshire.

If Vlad does press the destruct button at Hearts, either of the above two could be acquired and renamed as Hearts of Westlothian or something and play at Livingston in SFL2 and SFL3.

[Bad Martini]

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Will be sad to see Cowdenbeath dissapear and over 100 years of history with them.

Sadly, the Fife town is just another Hun invested carbuncle on the face of Scottish Football.

They won't be the last to go either. This countrys grotesque obsession with the Old Firm will see the game stuck in the mire of mediocrity for the forseeable future.

The house of cards that make up the lower leagues is about to fold.

Stirling Albion will probably be next.

Agreed. Cowdenbeath were always a team I had a soft spot for as well.

That said, I do like yer anti-Hunnish tendencies and I applaud ye for finding another fine opporchancity to rip the unwashed, vile, biggoted, repulsive, disgusting, minging hun hordes

[leithspartan]

I've already posted this on the Kickback thread on the subject so apologies if you've read it there but it was easier than typing it all out again. Spartans are getting a bit more stick over there than they are here but I felt the need to comment on this thread as well. In general, Cowden fans are being pretty even handed about Spartans as a club, however some fans of other clubs, with an anti-Spartans agenda are not.

As a Spartan, it doesn't exactly sit comfortably with me that a 130 year old club could disappear off the map in order for us to get a league place. I appreciate that football is a wee bit different from a normal business in terms of the emotional ties people have to their clubs, however Cowdenbeath is a classic example of 'use it or lose it'.

If everyone started buying their newspaper at Tesco rather than the local newsagent then you'd expect the local newsagent to go out of business very quickly. However, would everyone be on the forums saying "Oh my Granda used to buy his newspaper there. Cannae believe it's happening. Can we not get a millionaire/Gordon Brown/a newspaper readers consortium (delete as applicable) in to buy it?". No, I don't think so.

Cowdenbeath fans have long since abandoned their club. Even last night, with their club potentially days away from extinction, only 50 of them bothered to turn up at the meeting. According to one poster on P&B, it was apparently the rain that put them off. I mean, FFS. If your club is threatened, you think you'd be out in force. Fact of the matter is, the weather and a Bayern Munich v Man Utd game was clearly the greater priority.

In any other type of business no one would bat an eyelid. It's the survival of the fittest or more accurately, the survival of the most bothered.

From what I've read on other forums, they don't seem to have thought beyond the buying out the owners by matching Spartans (alleged) offer. Perhaps they could achieve that by raising a few grand here and there. However, that's only step one. Who's going to meet the £15K fine for the pitch not meeting regulation. Who's going to meet the £10K loss every week. It's a bottomless pit.

Regardless of the involvement or otherwise of Spartans, Cowdenbeath have been going to the wall for a good while now. They all just temporarily forgot about it in the excitement of a challenge for the 2nd Division title. Even that didn't exactly have them pouring into Central Park in large numbers.

I personally would not want to see Cowdenbeath disappear, however they need to look a lot closer to home than Spartans to find the true cause of their club's demise.

[joe breezy]

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And what is Spartans potential, just curious what peoples thoughts are?

I see them as a club that had some great support from the local authority and now have a great set-up from youth to senior but will be nothing more than a club that flirts with promotion and relegation from Div 2 and Div 3 playing in front of crowds of 500-600 if they achieve SFL status.

Would be a disaster for the Cowdenbeath players as if the merger does go through would the new Cowdenbeath/Spartans club have to start in SFL 3 rather than the 1st division (if they get promotion)

I agree, I don't think Edinburgh doesn't really need a 3rd Senior League club but Spartans are certainly a great community club.

There are too many senior clubs in Scotland to be honest, although the situation would be helped if more people supported local clubs as more people tend to do in England.

For example Derby County get up to 30 000 fans...yeah lots of kids do support Man U Liverpool and Chelsea down south but they are far more likely to support their local team than kids in Scotland it seems

[AndyM_1875]

The official statement from Cowdenbeath FC.

Their talks are about ground sharing due to their pitch and floodlights not being compliant (ludicrous IMHO considering that they will never be an SPL club and are not set up to even hint at it) and the fines they are accumulating because of this and they have sent communications to Spartans, Dunfermline, Raith Rovers and East Fife regarding this matter.

Cowdenbeath are in a difficult position as they have average gates of 500 and as a town they are affected by the draining effect of the parasitic Old Firm. They also are at loggerheads with the previous club owners and the plans to build a new ground just off the A92 and sell Central Park for housing have bit the dust due to the recession and the financial climate that it has left behind.

For what its worth I have stood at Central Park a few times and was there when there were over 2000 people there to see Cowdenbeath win the 3rd division in 2006. But it is a dilapidated dump of a ground and set up for Stock Cars rather than football even though the playing surface is a good one.

If they have to leave Central Park their best bet would be to play their games along the road at East End Park until conditions allow them to move home. Going over the Forth would be the death of them and I'd hate to see that.

[DaveF]

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I've already posted this on the Kickback thread on the subject so apologies if you've read it there but it was easier than typing it all out again. Spartans are getting a bit more stick over there than they are here but I felt the need to comment on this thread as well. In general, Cowden fans are being pretty even handed about Spartans as a club, however some fans of other clubs, with an anti-Spartans agenda are not.

As a Spartan, it doesn't exactly sit comfortably with me that a 130 year old club could disappear off the map in order for us to get a league place. I appreciate that football is a wee bit different from a normal business in terms of the emotional ties people have to their clubs, however Cowdenbeath is a classic example of 'use it or lose it'.

If everyone started buying their newspaper at Tesco rather than the local newsagent then you'd expect the local newsagent to go out of business very quickly. However, would everyone be on the forums saying "Oh my Granda used to buy his newspaper there. Cannae believe it's happening. Can we not get a millionaire/Gordon Brown/a newspaper readers consortium (delete as applicable) in to buy it?". No, I don't think so.

Cowdenbeath fans have long since abandoned their club. Even last night, with their club potentially days away from extinction, only 50 of them bothered to turn up at the meeting. According to one poster on P&B, it was apparently the rain that put them off. I mean, FFS. If your club is threatened, you think you'd be out in force. Fact of the matter is, the weather and a Bayern Munich v Man Utd game was clearly the greater priority.

In any other type of business no one would bat an eyelid. It's the survival of the fittest or more accurately, the survival of the most bothered.

From what I've read on other forums, they don't seem to have thought beyond the buying out the owners by matching Spartans (alleged) offer. Perhaps they could achieve that by raising a few grand here and there. However, that's only step one. Who's going to meet the £15K fine for the pitch not meeting regulation. Who's going to meet the £10K loss every week. It's a bottomless pit.

Regardless of the involvement or otherwise of Spartans, Cowdenbeath have been going to the wall for a good while now. They all just temporarily forgot about it in the excitement of a challenge for the 2nd Division title. Even that didn't exactly have them pouring into Central Park in large numbers.

I personally would not want to see Cowdenbeath disappear, however they need to look a lot closer to home than Spartans to find the true cause of their club's demise.

Good post and one that is applicable to many a team I'd suggest.

However, I remain wholly unconvinced that Edinburgh has what it takes to support a 3rd professional team.

What sort of fan base do you have currently and moving forward, what numbers do you aspire to attract?

Is there anything in the long term Spartans plan to convince the wider public that you won't just be another Meadowbank? (minus the beating Hibs part )

[MSK]

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The official statement from Cowdenbeath FC.

Their talks are about ground sharing due to their pitch and floodlights not being compliant (ludicrous IMHO considering that they will never be an SPL club and are not set up to even hint at it) and the fines they are accumulating because of this and they have sent communications to Spartans, Dunfermline, Raith Rovers and East Fife regarding this matter.

Cowdenbeath are in a difficult position as they have average gates of 500 and as a town they are affected by the draining effect of the parasitic Old Firm. They also are at loggerheads with the previous club owners and the plans to build a new ground just off the A92 and sell Central Park for housing have bit the dust due to the recession and the financial climate that it has left behind.

For what its worth I have stood at Central Park a few times and was there when there were over 2000 people there to see Cowdenbeath win the 3rd division in 2006. But it is a dilapidated dump of a ground and set up for Stock Cars rather than football even though the playing surface is a good one.

If they have to leave Central Park their best bet would be to play their games along the road at East End Park until conditions allow them to move home. Going over the Forth would be the death of them and I'd hate to see that.

So its just pie in the sky stuff then & the "takeover" is not a takeover but simply a groundshare option ..


In order to avoid further suspended fines crystallising, the Directors have taken it upon themselves to look into other possible ground arrangements, including ground sharing with nearby clubs, namely East Fife FC, Raith Rovers FC, Dunfermline AFC and Spartans FC. To date no response has been received from any of the clubs approached.

Any other press speculation is purely that, speculation, and has no worth, except in potentially unsettling our football staff and the league campaign.

Scott Brewster

Director