Terrible Trio and Famous Five in Edinburgh Derbies

**LHWM** · 03-03-2010 12:48 PM

I've put together the complete competitive record of the Terrible Trio and Famous Five in Edinburgh Derbies.

See here

The TT all played together 16 times, winning 13, drawing 2 and losing once.

The FF all played together 7 times, winning 2, drawing once and losing 4 times.

All 8 players played in 6 Derbies Hearts winning 4, drawing once and losing once.

Gordon Smith played the most games 37 times for Hibs and is top scorer with 15.
Jimmy W scored 14, Willie Bauld and Alfie Conn Snr 13 apiece. Lawrie Reilly scoring 10 for Hibs.

NB I've made the tables 'sortable' so if you click on a heading it will sort the table by that column.

A big big thanks to Bobby Sinnet for supplying the Hibs details. This has allowed me to to put an age against each player. For instance Gordon Smith was only 16y 11m 3 d when He scored his hat-trick on début.

***Wembley67*** · 03-03-2010 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by LHWM

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I've put together the complete competitive record of the Terrible Trio and Famous Five in Edinburgh Derbies.

See here

The TT all played together 16 times, winning 13, drawing 2 and losing once.

The FF all played together 7 times, winning 2, drawing once and losing 4 times.

All 8 players played in 6 Derbies Hearts winning 4, drawing once and losing once.
Gordon Smith played the most games 37 times for Hibs and is top scorer with 15.
Jimmy W scored 14, Willie Bauld and Alfie Conn Snr 13 apiece. Lawrie Reilly scoring 10 for Hibs.

NB I've made the tables 'sortable' so if you click on a heading it will sort the table by that column.

A big big thanks to Bobby Sinnet for supplying the Hibs details. This has allowed me to to put an age against each player. For instance Gordon Smith was only 16y 11m 3 d when He scored his hat-trick on début.

So our famous five weren't actually as good as the terrible trio

**LHWM** · 03-03-2010 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Wembley67

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So our famous five weren't actually as good as the terrible trio

not in Derbies but better at winning Championships though worse at League and Scottish Cups.

**alphahibby** · 03-03-2010 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Wembley67

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So our famous five weren't actually as good as the terrible trio

how could they be when they are the big team.

**~~PaulSmith~~** · 03-03-2010 01:08 PM

Just to add some perspective to this:

International Caps:
Lawrie Rielly - 38
Gordon Smith - 18
Bobby Jonhstone - 17
Eddie Turnbull - 9
Willie Ormand - 6

even Bobby Combe got 3 caps as 'reserve' to the FF

Willie Bauld - 3
Alfie Conn - 1
Jimmy Wardlaugh - 2

**LHWM** · 03-03-2010 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by PaulSmith

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Just to add some perspective to this:

International Caps:
Lawrie Rielly - 38
Gordon Smith - 18
Bobby Jonhstone - 17
Eddie Turnbull - 9
Willie Ormand - 6

even Bobby Combe got 3 caps as 'reserve' to the FF

Willie Bauld - 3
Alfie Conn - 1
Jimmy Wardlaugh - 2

Which had a lot to do with who were the selectors and the selection policy at the time rather than necessarily picking the best team.

This exact same debate was being held 60 years ago amongst Capitol football fans.

I know speaking to the older fans who went along to see both teams on alternative weeks that both sides played brilliant football at times. Indeed Hearts were known in from the 1930s through to the early 1950s for playing pretty football without winning anything and failing in semi finals in particular.

**LHWM** · 03-03-2010 01:44 PM

I've just added in details of all 47 games where one or more of the 8 players played. They are 'bookended' by Tommy Walker scoring for Hearts on Gordon Smith's début and Alan Gordon scoring in Willie Bauld's last derby appearance. A link to the pre War and Turnbull's Tornadoes eras.

***Keith_M*** · 03-03-2010 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by LHWM

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I've just added in details of all 47 games where one or more of the 8 players played. They are 'bookended' by Tommy Walker scoring for Hearts on Gordon Smith's début and Alan Gordon scoring in Willie Bauld's last derby appearance. A link to the pre War and Turnbull's Tornadoes eras.

Were there any occasions where the full Famous Five and Terrible Trio were on the pitch at the same time?

I realise it's unlikely, as they both had their peak a few years apart.

**Big Frank** · 03-03-2010 02:14 PM

I'm sure, not too long ago, someone on Hibs Net corrected LHWM regarding the famous five all playing together against the yams. IIRC it was something like 5 games, 3 wins and 2 draws??, whereas LHWMs take on it was different - along the line of Hibs were barry, but the yams were a wee bit mair barryer.

**LHWM** · 03-03-2010 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by keekaboo

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Were there any occasions where the full Famous Five and Terrible Trio were on the pitch at the same time?

I realise it's unlikely, as they both had their peak a few years apart.

See the 'combinations' section. As I stated in the original post

All 8 players played in 6 Derbies Hearts winning 4, drawing once and losing once.

Whilst Hearts hit their peak in terms of silverware later the TT were together from 1948 so the 'trio' played throughout Hibs' 'peak'. In one season Hearts took 4 points from Hibs and lost twice to Rangers where a draw in Hibs favour in any of the 4 games would have given Hibs the title.

**Big Frank** · 03-03-2010 02:16 PM

As a wee side LHWM, what is the derby record, in the league in the last 15 derbies?, and for comparison , the last 30 derbies?

cheers

**~~PaulSmith~~** · 03-03-2010 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by LHWM

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Which had a lot to do with who were the selectors and the selection policy at the time rather than necessarily picking the best team.

This exact same debate was being held 60 years ago amongst Capitol football fans.

I know speaking to the older fans who went along to see both teams on alternative weeks that both sides played brilliant football at times. Indeed Hearts were known in from the 1930s through to the early 1950s for playing pretty football without winning anything and failing in semi finals in particular.

Is there nothing that you lot can accept as being factual without there being an alternative motive?

**LHWM** · 03-03-2010 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Big Frank

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I'm sure, not too long ago, someone on Hibs Net corrected LHWM regarding the famous five all playing together against the yams. IIRC it was something like 5 games, 3 wins and 2 draws??, whereas LHWMs take on it was different - along the line of Hibs were barry, but the yams were a wee bit mair barryer.

That was based on the start and end dates of the 'famous five era'. I didn't have the details of the Hibs teams. This is now based on the actual appearances of the TT and the FF. Bobby Sinnet has been kind enough to supply the details of the Hibs line ups enabling a greater level of granualirty.

The actual figures for the FF are played 7, won 2, drawn 1 and lost 4.

**LHWM** · 03-03-2010 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Big Frank

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As a wee side LHWM, what is the derby record, in the league in the last 15 derbies?, and for comparison , the last 30 derbies?

cheers

Last 15

2006-01-28 Sat Hearts 4-1 Hibernian L SPL 17371 Hartley;Skacel;Hartley(1 pen);Elliot; [Garry Lawrence O'Connor;;] link--->
2006-04-22 Sat Hibernian 2-1 Hearts L SPL 16654 Bednar; [Derek George Riordan;Abdessalam Benjelloun;] link--->
2006-10-15 Sun Hibernian 2-2 Hearts L SPL 16623 Velicka;Velicka; [Merouane Zemamma;Christopher John Killen;] link--->
2006-12-26 Tue Hearts 3-2 Hibernian L SPL 17369 Hartley;Jankauskas;Mikoliunas; [Christopher John Killen;Dean Shiels pen;] link--->
2007-04-01 Sun Hibernian 0-1 Hearts L SPL 15953 Zaliukas; [;] link--->
2007-05-12 Sat Hearts 2-0 Hibernian L SPL 16434 Pospisil;Driver; [;] link--->
2007-08-06 Mon Hearts 0-1 Hibernian L SPL 16436 [Brian [1] Kerr;] link--->
2007-11-04 Sun Hibernian 1-1 Hearts L SPL 17015 Nade; [Berra og;] link--->
2008-01-19 Sat Hearts 1-0 Hibernian L SPL 17131 Velicka; [;] link--->
2008-10-19 Sun Hibernian 1-1 Hearts L SPL 17223 Aguiar; [Steven Fletcher;] link--->
2009-01-03 Sat Hearts 0-0 Hibernian L SPL 17244 [;] link--->
2009-03-14 Sat Hibernian 1-0 Hearts L SPL 15091 [Steven Fletcher;] link--->
2009-05-07 Thu Hearts 0-1 Hibernian L SPL 14714 [Derek George Riordan pen;] link--->
2009-11-07 Sat Hearts 0-0 Hibernian L SPL 16762 [;] link--->
2010-01-03 Sun Hibernian 1-1 Hearts L SPL 16949 Smith G; [Anthony Stokes;] link--->

**LHWM** · 03-03-2010 02:29 PM

Last 30

2001-10-21 Sun Hibernian 2-1 Hearts L SPL 13774 Simmons; [Ulises de la Cruz;Ulises de la Cruz;;;] link--->
2001-12-29 Sat Hearts 1-1 Hibernian L SPL 17474 McKenna; [John Thomas O'Neil;;;;] link--->
2002-03-16 Sat Hibernian 1-2 Hearts L SPL 13240 Severin;Pressley(1 pen); [Garry Lawrence O'Connor;;;;] link--->
2002-08-11 Sun Hearts 5-1 Hibernian L SPL 15245 Kirk;De Vries;De Vries;De Vries;De Vries; [Ian William Murray;;;;] link--->
2002-11-03 Sun Hibernian 1-2 Hearts L SPL 15660 McKenna;Stamp; [Mika-Matti Petteri Paatelainen;;;;] link--->
2003-01-02 Thu Hearts 4-4 Hibernian L SPL 17332 Pressley(1 pen);De Vries;Weir;Weir; [Derek Johnstone Townsley;Thomas Kelly McManus;Craig Peter James;Grant Ian Brebner;] link--->
2003-08-17 Sun Hibernian 1-0 Hearts L SPL 14803 [Garry Lawrence O'Connor;;] link--->
2003-11-23 Sun Hearts 2-0 Hibernian L SPL 16632 Orman og;Smith og; [;;] link--->
2004-02-15 Sun Hibernian 1-1 Hearts L SPL 15016 Pressley(1 pen); [Derek George Riordan;;] link--->
2004-10-24 Sun Hearts 2-1 Hibernian L SPL 16720 Kisnorbo;Hamill; [Derek George Riordan;;] link--->
2005-01-02 Sun Hibernian 1-1 Hearts L SPL 17259 Hartley; [Derek George Riordan;;] link--->
2005-04-13 Wed Hearts 1-2 Hibernian L SPL 17676 Miller; [Garry Lawrence O'Connor;Dean Shiels;] link--->
2005-04-23 Sat Hibernian 2-2 Hearts L SPL 16620 Miller;Webster; [Garry Lawrence O'Connor;Derek George Riordan;] link--->
2005-08-07 Sun Hearts 4-0 Hibernian L SPL 16459 Skacel;Hartley(1 pen);Simmons;Mikoliunas; [;;] link--->
2005-10-29 Sat Hibernian 2-0 Hearts L SPL 17180 [Guillaume Beuzelin;Garry Lawrence O'Connor;] link--->
2006-01-28 Sat Hearts 4-1 Hibernian L SPL 17371 Hartley;Skacel;Hartley(1 pen);Elliot; [Garry Lawrence O'Connor;;] link--->
2006-04-22 Sat Hibernian 2-1 Hearts L SPL 16654 Bednar; [Derek George Riordan;Abdessalam Benjelloun;] link--->
2006-10-15 Sun Hibernian 2-2 Hearts L SPL 16623 Velicka;Velicka; [Merouane Zemamma;Christopher John Killen;] link--->
2006-12-26 Tue Hearts 3-2 Hibernian L SPL 17369 Hartley;Jankauskas;Mikoliunas; [Christopher John Killen;Dean Shiels pen;] link--->
2007-04-01 Sun Hibernian 0-1 Hearts L SPL 15953 Zaliukas; [;] link--->
2007-05-12 Sat Hearts 2-0 Hibernian L SPL 16434 Pospisil;Driver; [;] link--->
2007-08-06 Mon Hearts 0-1 Hibernian L SPL 16436 [Brian [1] Kerr;] link--->
2007-11-04 Sun Hibernian 1-1 Hearts L SPL 17015 Nade; [Berra og;] link--->
2008-01-19 Sat Hearts 1-0 Hibernian L SPL 17131 Velicka; [;] link--->
2008-10-19 Sun Hibernian 1-1 Hearts L SPL 17223 Aguiar; [Steven Fletcher;] link--->
2009-01-03 Sat Hearts 0-0 Hibernian L SPL 17244 [;] link--->
2009-03-14 Sat Hibernian 1-0 Hearts L SPL 15091 [Steven Fletcher;] link--->
2009-05-07 Thu Hearts 0-1 Hibernian L SPL 14714 [Derek George Riordan pen;] link--->
2009-11-07 Sat Hearts 0-0 Hibernian L SPL 16762 [;] link--->
2010-01-03 Sun Hibernian 1-1 Hearts L SPL 16949 Smith G; [Anthony Stokes;] link--->

**LHWM** · 03-03-2010 02:33 PM

You should have said last 7 or 10 even

2007-05-12 Sat Hearts 2-0 Hibernian L SPL 16434 Pospisil;Driver; [;] link--->
2007-08-06 Mon Hearts 0-1 Hibernian L SPL 16436 [Brian [1] Kerr;] link--->
2007-11-04 Sun Hibernian 1-1 Hearts L SPL 17015 Nade; [Berra og;] link--->

2008-01-19 Sat Hearts 1-0 Hibernian L SPL 17131 Velicka; [;] link--->
2008-10-19 Sun Hibernian 1-1 Hearts L SPL 17223 Aguiar; [Steven Fletcher;] link--->
2009-01-03 Sat Hearts 0-0 Hibernian L SPL 17244 [;] link--->
2009-03-14 Sat Hibernian 1-0 Hearts L SPL 15091 [Steven Fletcher;] link--->
2009-05-07 Thu Hearts 0-1 Hibernian L SPL 14714 [Derek George Riordan pen;] link--->
2009-11-07 Sat Hearts 0-0 Hibernian L SPL 16762 [;] link--->
2010-01-03 Sun Hibernian 1-1 Hearts L SPL 16949 Smith G; [Anthony Stokes;] link--->

***.Sean.*** · 03-03-2010 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by PaulSmith

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Just to add some perspective to this:

International Caps:
Lawrie Rielly - 38
Gordon Smith - 18
Bobby Jonhstone - 17
Eddie Turnbull - 9
Willie Ormand - 6

even Bobby Combe got 3 caps as 'reserve' to the FF

Willie Bauld - 3
Alfie Conn - 1
Jimmy Wardlaugh - 2

I read somewhere, can't remember where though, that if Combe wasn't so versatile, the Five would've been known as the 'Seasational Six.' Perhaps somebody could clarify.

Also, calling him a 'reserve to the FF' is a bit unfair, it seems to me he was a mainstay in that side.

**Earl o'Montrose** · 03-03-2010 04:09 PM

[QUOTE=LHWM;2375344]I've put together the complete competitive record of the Terrible Trio and Famous Five in Edinburgh Derbies.

See here

The TT all played together 16 times, winning 13, drawing 2 and losing once.

The FF all played together 7 times, winning 2, drawing once and losing 4 times.

QUOTE]
Good grief, is that all?

**jdships** · 03-03-2010 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by PaulSmith

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Just to add some perspective to this:

International Caps:
Lawrie Rielly - 38
Gordon Smith - 18
Bobby Jonhstone - 17
Eddie Turnbull - 9
Willie Ormand - 6

even Bobby Combe got 3 caps as 'reserve' to the FF

Willie Bauld - 3
Alfie Conn - 1
Jimmy Wardlaugh - 2

I was lucky enough to play against both FF and TT albeit only twice

With the FF it was difficult to suss out the formation they played while with TT they used a "W" set up through the middle .
Gordon Smith for me "had it all" at club level ,but, at fear of being accused of "Hibs bias" Reilly was the "class act " at club and internationally , amongst the eight of them - as good for Scotland as he was for his club.
Plus he fully earned his nickname "Last minute Reilly" with his saving goals
Gordon Smith and Willie Bauld never seemed able to produce their club form for Scotland - that probably being the main reason they gained so few caps
For me the most underrated among them was Alfie Conn - one of the finest exponents of the 30/40 yard pass to a players feet I have ever seen !

As the song says "WHEN WILL WE SEE THEIR LIKE AGAIN ?"

As for Bobby Combe .
Bobby was a "one man team" played at the old 7,8,9,10,11( with distinction) and yet he always said No 6 ( wing half) was his favourite position .
Wasn't tall , from memory, but was built like a "brick s...t h...e"
Always think of him when I watch Scott Brown "driving forward "

***CropleyWasGod*** · 03-03-2010 04:45 PM

[QUOTE=Earl o'Montrose;2375532]

Originally Posted by LHWM

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I've put together the complete competitive record of the Terrible Trio and Famous Five in Edinburgh Derbies.

See here

The TT all played together 16 times, winning 13, drawing 2 and losing once.

The FF all played together 7 times, winning 2, drawing once and losing 4 times.

QUOTE]
Good grief, is that all?

Remember they only had two games a season then.

***CropleyWasGod*** · 03-03-2010 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by PaulSmith

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Is there nothing that you lot can accept as being factual without there being an alternative motive?

Which bit are you meaning?

**~~PaulSmith~~** · 03-03-2010 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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Which bit are you meaning?

The quote that the reply was in.

***CropleyWasGod*** · 03-03-2010 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by PaulSmith

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The quote that the reply was in.

As far as I can see, he is saying that there was a debate amongst fans about who was better, who played the better football, about who should have been in the national team. Fans who watched both teams which, as happened then, would have been fans of either team.

Nothing factual, all subjective.

Or am I missing something?

**LHWM** · 03-03-2010 05:17 PM

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;2375561]

Originally Posted by Earl o'Montrose

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Remember they only had two games a season then.

With Bobby Johnstone leaving Hibs in 1955 (IIRC) that only left 5 years as the time span to fit the games in.

Gordon Smith would have probably played in 70+ Competitive derbies if there had been 4 a season.

**~~PaulSmith~~** · 03-03-2010 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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As far as I can see, he is saying that there was a debate amongst fans about who was better, who played the better football, about who should have been in the national team. Fans who watched both teams which, as happened then, would have been fans of either team.

Nothing factual, all subjective.

Or am I missing something?

Which had a lot to do with who were the selectors and the selection policy at the time rather than necessarily picking the best team.

The insinuation was that the TT were better but didn't get pick up any international caps due to the selectors and their policies against Hearts?

***CropleyWasGod*** · 03-03-2010 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by PaulSmith

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Which had a lot to do with who were the selectors and the selection policy at the time rather than necessarily picking the best team.

The insinuation was that the TT were better but didn't get pick up any international caps due to the selectors and their policies against Hearts?

... which would be an opinion.

**LHWM** · 03-03-2010 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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... which would be an opinion.

It is certainly the opinion of many Hearts fans who were around in the 1950s.

**RoxburghHibs** · 03-03-2010 05:43 PM

Here's a stat for ya

Hearts 0

Hibernian 7

As relevant as your usual fudged "dig at Hibs" stats

**~~PaulSmith~~** · 03-03-2010 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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... which would be an opinion.

FFS!!

Of course it's LHWM's opinion that the TT only got 6 caps because there was some other mysterious conspiracy from the selectors at the time and somehow they favoured the FF.

I'm saying that he's talking shi'ite and it's another blatant attempt to come on here, re-write history to make them either seem 'bigger' and if they are proved otherwise then there must be another factor involved.

I really can't make it any clearer but I'm sure you'll try to come back and ask me again...