Watford - thread on kickback (safety of old stands)

[Minder]

The following post appears in a thread discussing Watford's plight.

"Vicarage Road is a dump....as is Watford. 3 sides of the ground are barely in use with the old stand being closed on safety grounds.

They do have a couple of decent players who will command a fee in January and could stave off the administration worry for a while.

Not good news for football when clubs are in the mire ".

Now when does PBS main stand safety expire? How much do they owe which falls in January and what fuds would attract a fee? I cannot make up my mind if this is a tremendous subtle wind up from a hibby or an extreme case of pot and kettle with head firmly in sand.

[greenginger]

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The following post appears in a thread discussing Watford's plight.

"Vicarage Road is a dump....as is Watford. 3 sides of the ground are barely in use with the old stand being closed on safety grounds.

They do have a couple of decent players who will command a fee in January and could stave off the administration worry for a while.

Not good news for football when clubs are in the mire ".

Now when does PBS main stand safety expire? How much do they owe which falls in January and what fuds would attract a fee? I cannot make up my mind if this is a tremendous subtle wind up from a hibby or an extreme case of pot and kettle with head firmly in sand.

Just read through all the posts on the Kickback thread. Seems there has been a dose of grim reality spreading through their ranks this evening.

[blackpoolhibs]

Will the yams get an extension on the safety certificate, for the health hazard stand?

[Billy McKirdy]

Not wishing to rain on anybodys parade, BUT...being the Luton Town fan that I am....this is very sad news , being serious though, as a football fan, this IS very sad news. Stadiums up & down the country are being subject to more & more draconian health & safety rules jeapordising tradition. and to be fair Luton do not have the most state of the art stadia either, I wish the rule makers would just step back sometimes & consider the football fans for once.

[CentreLine]

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Not wishing to rain on anybodys parade, BUT...being the Luton Town fan that I am....this is very sad news , being serious though, as a football fan, this IS very sad news. Stadiums up & down the country are being subject to more & more draconian health & safety rules jeapordising tradition. and to be fair Luton do not have the most state of the art stadia either, I wish the rule makers would just step back sometimes & consider the football fans for once.

Regretfully there will be people at Bradford haunted by that thought for a very long time. Sometimes the rules are there for a reason.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

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The following post appears in a thread discussing Watford's plight.

"Vicarage Road is a dump....as is Watford. 3 sides of the ground are barely in use with the old stand being closed on safety grounds.

They do have a couple of decent players who will command a fee in January and could stave off the administration worry for a while.

Not good news for football when clubs are in the mire ".

Now when does PBS main stand safety expire? How much do they owe which falls in January and what fuds would attract a fee? I cannot make up my mind if this is a tremendous subtle wind up from a hibby or an extreme case of pot and kettle with head firmly in sand.

I would have spotted that as a wind up to be honest. However, I saw a bit on Sky Sports last night that said if they don't get £5 million in by March they will go into administration. Also, saw a bit about Crystal Phallus not paying wages on time. Hard times ahead for teams that are not cutting their cloth accordingly.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Not wishing to rain on anybodys parade, BUT...being the Luton Town fan that I am....this is very sad news , being serious though, as a football fan, this IS very sad news. Stadiums up & down the country are being subject to more & more draconian health & safety rules jeapordising tradition. and to be fair Luton do not have the most state of the art stadia either, I wish the rule makers would just step back sometimes & consider the football fans for once.

I think Health and Safety is all about the fans to be honest. No-one thought about safety in the past and that's why disasters like Heysel, Bradford, Hillsborough, Ibrox (twice) and Bolton happened.

Having attended games before the days of Health and Safety, I'm glad that there's a lot less chance of being caught in the terrifying surges and sways that used to happen.

[khib70]

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I think Health and Safety is all about the fans to be honest. No-one thought about safety in the past and that's why disasters like Heysel, Bradford, Hillsborough, Ibrox (twice) and Bolton happened.

Having attended games before the days of Health and Safety, I'm glad that there's a lot less chance of being caught in the terrifying surges and sways that used to happen.

Totally agree. People who indulge themselves in dewy-eyed nostalgia for the "golden age" of huge, crumbling deathtrap terraces forget that it was also a "golden age" for florists trading in the vicinity of football grounds.

"Atmosphere" is not worth the life of one single fan, far less the hundreds who died horribly in the "golden years".

[MacBean]

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I think Health and Safety is all about the fans to be honest. No-one thought about safety in the past and that's why disasters like Heysel, Bradford, Hillsborough, Ibrox (twice) and Bolton happened.

Having attended games before the days of Health and Safety, I'm glad that there's a lot less chance of being caught in the terrifying surges and sways that used to happen.

i agree with you, i wasn't around to experience what you say, however they allow this kinda thing to happen at full scale gigs and festivals when it can be just as bad!

[Tinyclothes]

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Totally agree. People who indulge themselves in dewy-eyed nostalgia for the "golden age" of huge, crumbling deathtrap terraces forget that it was also a "golden age" for florists trading in the vicinity of football grounds.

"Atmosphere" is not worth the life of one single fan, far less the hundreds who died horribly in the "golden years".

I'd disagree, I would swap a lot of the saftey measures to get back the atmosphere, terracing especially. Doesn't necessarily mean that they should be crumbling dealth traps. Get in a nice, seated family stand on one side for your fellow thinkers and let the rest of us get back to how it should be.

[Bishop Hibee]

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Totally agree. People who indulge themselves in dewy-eyed nostalgia for the "golden age" of huge, crumbling deathtrap terraces forget that it was also a "golden age" for florists trading in the vicinity of football grounds.

"Atmosphere" is not worth the life of one single fan, far less the hundreds who died horribly in the "golden years".

Ironically, the biggest potential death trap at ER before the redevelopment was the old Stand. When I think of my grandpa puffing away on his pipe in that wooden firetrap the mind boggles.

Thankfully, there are safe ways of incorporating standing into new stadia and I hope to see it at ER one day.

[Dashing Bob S]

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I would have spotted that as a wind up to be honest. However, I saw a bit on Sky Sports last night that said if they don't get £5 million in by March they will go into administration. Also, saw a bit about Crystal Phallus not paying wages on time. Hard times ahead for teams that are not cutting their cloth accordingly.

Just as well Hearts finances seem rock-solid. Those gloating Yams!

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Totally agree. People who indulge themselves in dewy-eyed nostalgia for the "golden age" of huge, crumbling deathtrap terraces forget that it was also a "golden age" for florists trading in the vicinity of football grounds.

"Atmosphere" is not worth the life of one single fan, far less the hundreds who died horribly in the "golden years".

One that really sums up the whole attitude was the disaster at Bolton. I think it was early 50s, Stanley Matthews was playing for Blackpool that day. It's hard to believe this but they actually made them play the game with the bodies of dead fans on the running track.

[Big Frank]

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I think Health and Safety is all about the fans to be honest. No-one thought about safety in the past and that's why disasters like Heysel, Bradford, Hillsborough, Ibrox (twice) and Bolton happened.

Having attended games before the days of Health and Safety, I'm glad that there's a lot less chance of being caught in the terrifying surges and sways that used to happen.

Like you needed to be caught in "terrifying surges" back in the day? There was no place in football grounds for people to sit

Bradford was the result of about 20years of rubbish building up.

Heysel was the result of very poor segregation amongst other things.

Hillsborough. Yes, you're right that was to do with there terracing. Deary dear

Ibrox. First one - can't recall, 2nd because (over crowded in the first place) thousands of fans left early then rushed back. stairwell. Not terrace.

Unsure about bolton.

Give people the choice to stand at a match if they want. You want to sit at the game? Plenty places to do that. Why should someone who wishes to stand at a game not be given the option?

Jeezo man.

[Big Frank]

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One that really sums up the whole attitude was the disaster at Bolton. I think it was early 50s, Stanley Matthews was playing for Blackpool that day. It's hard to believe this but they actually made them play the game with the bodies of dead fans on the running track.

Aye. there should be no terracing at football because of something that happened at bolton just after WW2.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Like you needed to be caught in "terrifying surges" back in the day? There was no place in football grounds for people to sit

Bradford was the result of about 20years of rubbish building up.

Heysel was the result of very poor segregation amongst other things.

Hillsborough. Yes, you're right that was to do with there terracing. Deary dear

Ibrox. First one - can't recall, 2nd because (over crowded in the first place) thousands of fans left early then rushed back. stairwell. Not terrace.

Unsure about bolton.

Give people the choice to stand at a match if they want. You want to sit at the game? Plenty places to do that. Why should someone who wishes to stand at a game not be given the option?

Jeezo man.

The thread was about whether Watford's unsafe ground should be used for games. I responded by saying that there is Health and Safety because of previous disasters. I didn't say whether people should be allowed to stand or not, just that there is a need to check the safety of stadiums.

Hope that makes it clearer for you.

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Aye. there should be no terracing at football because of something that happened at bolton just after WW2.

What a stupid, ill thought out statement. Read the thread before you weigh into people.

[sixtwo]

I loved standing in the East terracing (I still do sometimes) but I have to admit I have grown used to the modern set up and i am ok with it. I believe we have made positive strides to drag football into the modern era. I also believe there is scope to incorporate a standing area in all modern stadiums.
The taylor report demanded all seater stadia in the light of the Hillsborough tradgedy, and while there can be no doubt it has made stadiums safer, I think we have learned from the past and there is room for improvement on what we currently have.

If we could build a new East stand which was completely modernised but with a regulated standing area, this would be fantastic for the fans.It would improve the atmosphere and continue our tradition of being innovative in the scottish game:notworthy:

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Whilst no one would want to make light of anyone who has lost their life at a football match, I think that increased stewarding and much better facilities mean that we can have another look at standing at football matches. Heysel was a crumbling deathtrap and not fit to host a final. Hillsborough was caused by flawed crowd control procedures and it is offical cover-ups that prevent correct root cause being determined. Tie a seat to a ticket, tie a ticket to a supporter. That is a traceability measure for football hooligans. It is a total contradiction that a crowd of 3,500 at a recent Hamilton match is only safe in an all seater stadium, yet a crowd of nearly 6,000 for Ross County v ICT is safe in stadium with standing areas in the SFL.

[Big Frank]

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The thread was about whether Watford's unsafe ground should be used for games. I responded by saying that there is Health and Safety because of previous disasters. I didn't say whether people should be allowed to stand or not, just that there is a need to check the safety of stadiums.

Hope that makes it clearer for you.


Yeh. Watford. Thats why your prattling on about about Bolton in the 50s.
Good stuff.


What a stupid, ill thought out statement. Read the thread before you weigh into people.

You at your patronising best FR. Keep up the good work.

[Billy McKirdy]

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Regretfully there will be people at Bradford haunted by that thought for a very long time. Sometimes the rules are there for a reason.

To be fair, the Bradford disaster inexplicably escaped me when I responded to this thread , however I still feel the same way tbh. If our old stands & terraces could be brought up to date & within health & safety regulations without losing there character we would all win. There was a feature in one of the tabloids recently about Queen of the South possibly having to demolish there historic terracing behind the goals at Palmerson Park to meet SPL standards should they be promoted, I've been on this particular terrace & there is nothing wrong with it from a supporters viewpoint, as other posters have pointed out, outwith the SPL, standing terraces & safe old stands are perfectly ok safety-wise. Money is spent needlessly upgrading grounds when it could be used keeping clubs solvent...or am I talking total s***e?????

[Phil D. Rolls]

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You at your patronising best FR. Keep up the good work.

Patronising is when you think someone isn't as bright as you, and you explain things to them as if they were a small child, who can't understand things (see what I'm doing). What I did to you was insult you because you had been obnoxious with your ill founded comments.

It was you who spat the dummy, I just took the opportunity to let you know what a tit you had been slagging me off for something I didn't say. Don't dish it out if you can't take it back, else people might suspect you aren't the Big man you make out you are.

You did make yourself look a wee bit silly with the post that prompted me to say that your remarks were stupid and ill thought out. After all I hadn't said anything about people not being allowed to stand, didn't stop you trivialising the Bolton disaster as "something that happened after the war" though. I take it if it had happened last week it would have been significant?

[Phil D. Rolls]

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To be fair, the Bradford disaster inexplicably escaped me when I responded to this thread , however I still feel the same way tbh. If our old stands & terraces could be brought up to date & within health & safety regulations without losing there character we would all win. There was a feature in one of the tabloids recently about Queen of the South possibly having to demolish there historic terracing behind the goals at Palmerson Park to meet SPL standards should they be promoted, I've been on this particular terrace & there is nothing wrong with it from a supporters viewpoint, as other posters have pointed out, outwith the SPL, standing terraces & safe old stands are perfectly ok safety-wise. Money is spent needlessly upgrading grounds when it could be used keeping clubs solvent...or am I talking total s***e?????

I think there is no reason why, with proper stewarding and inspection of the grounds that people couldn't stand. I think a lot of the atmosphere has gone, but the reality is we live in a different time.

[Big Frank]

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Patronising is when you think someone isn't as bright as you, and you explain things to them as if they were a small child, who can't understand things (see what I'm doing). What I did to you was insult you because you had been obnoxious with your ill founded comments.

I will, in future, send you my posts. You can mark them accordingly, advising if they are rude, obnoxious, funny, sad, sincere, ill founded etc. This is, after all your messageboard.

It was you who spat the dummy, I just took the opportunity to let you know what a tit you had been slagging me off for something I didn't say. Don't dish it out if you can't take it back, else people might suspect you aren't the Big man you make out you are.

Nope. No dummy spitting here FR. Your comments came over as nonsense, so I decided to comment on you having to experience those deathly sways . I merely stated that YOU didn't have to suffer those sways FR. You see there was seating and standing. As you well know. You obviously CHOSE to go to a part of the ground where there was a good chance you might get caught in a sway. Hardly slagging you off FR.

Regarding "dishing it out" - I can dish it out and can take it aswell precious. Please refrain to calling me a tit though. I could take offence. Its would appear that its YOU whos making themselves out to be the "big man".


You did make yourself look a wee bit silly with the post that prompted me to say that your remarks were stupid and ill thought out. After all I hadn't said anything about people not being allowed to stand, didn't stop you trivialising the Bolton disaster as "something that happened after the war" though. I take it if it had happened last week it would have been significant?

Nope, wrong again board leader.

I wasn't trivialising Bolton. I was trivialising you

[marinello59]

As amusing as it can be to watch please stick to the issues guys, I can't be bothered looking out the dayglo jacket and jackboots today and deleting posts.

[LancashireHibby]

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One that really sums up the whole attitude was the disaster at Bolton. I think it was early 50s, Stanley Matthews was playing for Blackpool that day. It's hard to believe this but they actually made them play the game with the bodies of dead fans on the running track.

It was against Stoke in 1946. I think the idea of the game continuing was to avoid panic in the crowd (the disaster was at the Embankment end, with the rest of the ground blissfully unaware of what had occured). Sadly, the threat of bankruptcy in the mid 1980's saw a supermarket built on the very area of the ground where 33 people lost their lives - there is now an Asda on the site of Burnden Park, with a plaque commemorating those who went to a football match and never came home.

[hibbybrian]

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Ibrox. First one - can't recall

the first Ibrox disaster was due to wooden terracing collapsing and fans falling through the collapsed terracing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrox_disaster -this resulted in the 1902/03 Hibs Celtc cup final being played at Celtc Park - the home team however lost the match

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Nope, wrong again board leader.

I wasn't trivialising Bolton. I was trivialising you

OK, fair enough, I accept your apology. So where do you stand on safety at football grounds? Do you think that we should go back to a situation where the clubs could treat human life with contempt, or is there a way that we can bring back some of the atmosphere the old grounds had and still keep people safe?

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It was against Stoke in 1946. I think the idea of the game continuing was to avoid panic in the crowd (the disaster was at the Embankment end, with the rest of the ground blissfully unaware of what had occured). Sadly, the threat of bankruptcy in the mid 1980's saw a supermarket built on the very area of the ground where 33 people lost their lives - there is now an Asda on the site of Burnden Park, with a plaque commemorating those who went to a football match and never came home.

Thanks for that, a harrowing tale altogether.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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As amusing as it can be to watch please stick to the issues guys, I can't be bothered looking out the dayglo jacket and jackboots today and deleting posts.

You've been to that wee shop on Dalry Road again haven't you?

[marinello59]

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You've been to that wee shop on Dalry Road again haven't you?

Damn. Rumbled.

[Big Frank]

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OK, fair enough, I accept your apology. So where do you stand on safety at football grounds? Do you think that we should go back to a situation where the clubs could treat human life with contempt, or is there a way that we can bring back some of the atmosphere the old grounds had and still keep people safe?

Nothing for you to accept Free Reign, and certainly not an apology.

Yes, really, I do think we should "go back to a situation where the clubs could treat human life with contempt". That would be great.

deary dear