Latest from hibs.net: A team to match the Tornadoes

[DaveF]

Stu in nottingham starts a small series on a comparison of a modern day team to match the wonderful Hibernian outfit of the 70s......

http://www.hibs.net/index.php?option...d=793&Itemid=1

[YehButNoBut]

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Stu in nottingham starts a small series on a comparison of a modern day team to match the wonderful Hibernian outfit of the 70s......

http://www.hibs.net/index.php?option...d=793&Itemid=1

The Challengers

Andy Goram

Stephen Whittaker
Rob Jones
Franck Sauzee
David Murphy
Des Bremner
Scott Brown
John Collins
Derek Riordan
Steve Archibald
Keith Wright

If only we had this team together at one time, they would win this present league easily.

[Jonnyboy]

A great read and has left me waiting impatiently on Part Two

[andyhibs]

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A great read and has left me waiting impatiently on Part Two

yeh a great read indeed, just to add, i wonder how the tornados would have faired with the rule changes from their era to now , im thinking of 2 in perticular, the pass back and offside, oh and i nearly forgot shorts that fitted

[iwasthere1972]

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yeh a great read indeed, just to add, i wonder how the tornados would have faired with the rule changes from their era to now , im thinking of 2 in perticular, the pass back and offside, oh and i nearly forgot shorts that fitted

As the rules would also apply to the opposition they would have to cancel each other out. There would have been many a game that finished with 5-a-side if the same nancy pansy rules of "no contact" were applied back in the 70's. Ah the days when men were men.

[stu in nottingham]

Cheers all.

The second part and the final concluding part are already written and ready to go. I can tell you it's an extremely close contest as to who comes out on top! I was a little surprised myself...

Re the rule changes, I reckon that great footballers can adapt to anything and that would apply to an era. The Tornadoes were above all very fluid and dynamic and that would serve them well today.

[Expecting Rain]

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The Challengers

Andy Goram

Stephen Whittaker
Rob Jones
Franck Sauzee
David Murphy
Des Bremner
Scott Brown
John Collins
Derek Riordan
Steve Archibald
Keith Wright

If only we had this team together at one time, they would win this present league easily.

Craig Paterson and Gordon Durie for Rob Jones and Keith Wright?

[Ray_]

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Cheers all.

The second part and the final concluding part are already written and ready to go. I can tell you it's an extremely close contest as to who comes out on top! I was a little surprised myself...

Re the rule changes, I reckon that great footballers can adapt to anything and that would apply to an era. The Tornadoes were above all very fluid and dynamic and that would serve them well today.

Stu that was a great read & no George Best or Ally MacLeod for that matter. In think it is only Sloop & Shades that would have trouble with today's rules. For me the TT's were only 2 players away from being a perfect team as back then we were still short of a keeper who excelled & a domineering centre half.

I believe those two positions filled would have given us the perfect team; however our biggest weakness was not having a strong squad. Des Bremner, who is in the challengers side, took over for half the famous 72/3 season, as a replacement for John Brownlie, who was the best right back in Britain at the time & Des had only been signed a couple of months earlier from the highland league. John Hamilton, who was our sub [only one allowed] for most of the games that season, was freed at the end of that season. I think our predicament was highlighted when we had our last home game against Celtic, when youngster such as Bobby Smith was introduced & we were totally outclassed in a 0-3 defeat which gave Celtic the title.

As for the challengers I would have,

Goram
Whitt’s, Sauzee, Laursen & Murphy.

Brown, Latapy, Collins, Best.

Archibald & Riordan or MacLeod & Jackson or Scott & Ward, oh for opinions.

[stu in nottingham]

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Stu that was a great read & no George Best or Ally MacLeod for that matter. In think it is only Sloop & Shades that would have trouble with today's rules. For me the TT's were only 2 players away from being a perfect team as back then we were still short of a keeper who excelled & a domineering centre half.

I believe those two positions filled would have given us the perfect team; however our biggest weakness was not having a strong squad. Des Bremner, who is in the challengers side, took over for half the famous 72/3 season, as a replacement for John Brownlie, who was the best right back in Britain at the time & Des had only been signed a couple of months earlier from the highland league. John Hamilton, who was our sub [only one allowed] for most of the games that season, was freed at the end of that season. I think our predicament was highlighted when we had our last home game against Celtic, when youngster such as Bobby Smith was introduced & we were totally outclassed in a 0-3 defeat which gave Celtic the title.

As for the challengers I would have,

Goram
Whitt’s, Sauzee, Laursen & Murphy.

Brown, Latapy, Collins, Best.

Archibald & Riordan or MacLeod & Jackson or Scott & Ward, oh for opinions.

Interesting opinions, cheers Ray!

I think you're dead right about the TT's, they had almost all the components of a perfect team and fitted together perfectly. There have maybe been more successful club sides but in that respect specifically the Forest European Cup winning side reminded me a lot of them.

I knew that all sorts of names would start jumping out of the woodwork at me when I did this! I rated Des Bremner very highly indeed so look out for his possible inclusion elsewhere. He was a fantastic right-sided midfield player and a superb foil in front of the flamboyant John Gidman at Villa I thought.

I think that most of the Challengers are perhaps arguable. When it comes to the Belfast Boy I'll say here and now he was one of my two or three favourite players of all-time. That's probably why I can't get my head around the subject of him in a Hibs shirt for that comparatively short period and tend to walk away from the debate. There is of course no questioning his absolute genius. Simply put he was the greatest for me.

With these things it's far harder to consider who you're going to leave out as opposed to who gets the nod, there are so many good players!

[Ray_]

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Interesting opinions, cheers Ray!

I think you're dead right about the TT's, they had almost all the components of a perfect team and fitted together perfectly. There have maybe been more successful club sides but in that respect specifically the Forest European Cup winning side reminded me a lot of them.

I knew that all sorts of names would start jumping out of the woodwork at me when I did this! I rated Des Bremner very highly indeed so look out for his possible inclusion elsewhere. He was a fantastic right-sided midfield player and a superb foil in front of the flamboyant John Gidman at Villa I thought.

I think that most of the Challengers are perhaps arguable. When it comes to the Belfast Boy I'll say here and now he was one of my two or three favourite players of all-time. That's probably why I can't get my head around the subject of him in a Hibs shirt for that comparatively short period and tend to walk away from the debate. There is of course no questioning his absolute genius. Simply put he was the greatest for me.

With these things it's far harder to consider who you're going to leave out as opposed to who gets the nod, there are so many good players!

You have certainly started a brilliant concept & if you haven't already thought of it, perhaps you can do another piece post FF to pre TT's. With the likes of Willie Hamilton, Joe Baker & of course your own Peter Cormack, it would be another mouthwatering challange, as if you ain't got enough going on at the moment.

[500miles]

I always wonder about these comparisons. The Tornadoes have 30 years of myth and nostalgia on thier side, while any deficiencies of recent players are fresh in the mind.

[Ray_]

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Interesting opinions, cheers Ray!

I knew that all sorts of names would start jumping out of the woodwork at me when I did this! I rated Des Bremner very highly indeed so look out for his possible inclusion elsewhere. He was a fantastic right-sided midfield player and a superb foil in front of the flamboyant John Gidman at Villa I thought.

Des Bremner was a star, he couldn't have had it any harder than to take the place of John Brownlie, who at the time was immense, and it’s a tragedy that he never fully recaptured the form he was in prior to his leg brake.

Des Bremner was a real star for Hibs from the mid-seventies, it was very apparent the loss when we were relegated after he had departed for Villa. Ironically I remember a friendly match with Crystal Palace around Feb 1978, when he played against Terry Venables soon to be declared “team of the eighties”, Des played on the right wing, directly against Kenny Sansom. Although Hibs won the match comfortably enough, even although it was only an Ally MacLeod goal which separated the sides, however, the young Sansom gave Des a footballing lesson, much in the same way Dave Wagstaff of Wolves had done to John Brownlie in an inter league international game, some years earlier. With both JB & DB, it was only the once I saw an opponent give either of them the run around.

I had the privilege of being at Highbury when Villa clinched the title with a 2-0 defeat in 81 [Ipswich had to avoid defeat, which they didn’t], the title was just rewards for Des & his team mates and as you know, his status was further enhanced when he was part of the Villa side which won the European cup.

[Ray_]

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I always wonder about these comparisons. The Tornadoes have 30 years of myth and nostalgia on thier side, while any deficiencies of recent players are fresh in the mind.

One thing that's for sure, the standard of opposition was far greater back then, Celtic had one of the best sides in Europe & even Rangers were capable of winning Europe second most desirable competition. Even with their deficiencies, I think the TT’s would walk the current league.

[stu in nottingham]

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You have certainly started a brilliant concept & if you haven't already thought of it, perhaps you can do another piece post FF to pre TT's. With the likes of Willie Hamilton, Joe Baker & of course your own Peter Cormack, it would be another mouthwatering challange, as if you ain't got enough going on at the moment.

That's a fine idea Ray!

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I always wonder about these comparisons. The Tornadoes have 30 years of myth and nostalgia on thier side, while any deficiencies of recent players are fresh in the mind.

In fairness current players strengths are also fresh in the mind too. Many older players get disregarded in 'best of' type selections I always think.

It's almost impossible to compare at times. I guess that's the fun of it!

[MSK]

Can i just say Stu..excellent stuff...different & very refreshing to see such a well thought out & enjoyable article ...

More !!...

[500miles]

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That's a fine idea Ray!



In fairness current players strengths are also fresh in the mind too. Many older players get disregarded in 'best of' type selections I always think.

It's almost impossible to compare at times. I guess that's the fun of it!

Aye, but that's where the nostalgia comes in and exaggerates those stregnths.

[iwasthere1972]

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Cheers all.

The second part and the final concluding part are already written and ready to go. I can tell you it's an extremely close contest as to who comes out on top! I was a little surprised myself...

Re the rule changes, I reckon that great footballers can adapt to anything and that would apply to an era. The Tornadoes were above all very fluid and dynamic and that would serve them well today.

Is that a clue I wonder.

[stu in nottingham]

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Is that a clue I wonder.

You'll have to wait and see!

[500miles]

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One thing that's for sure, the standard of opposition was far greater back then, Celtic had one of the best sides in Europe & even Rangers were capable of winning Europe second most desirable competition. Even with their deficiencies, I think the TT’s would walk the current league.

Ranger's were capable of winning Europe's second most desirable competition a couple of years ago, despite falling at the final hurdle, and Celtic have made a habit of beating teams like Man U in recent years. The seventies were a time where, perhaps, teams on the continent were less developed.

Teams are miles ahead in training techniques these days, and kids are exposed to high quality players to look up to and model themselves on, on the TV just about every day/night. Whereas it was a rare treat to see the top quality teams and players of the day during the TT's era, we have become desensitised to it, and take a lot of great players for granted. In fact, I think the "Best Volley" thread makes a bit of a case for this, as Stewart v Aberdeen is IMO, one of the best of the lot, but won't be remembered in 20 years time like some of the others.

[Ray_]

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Ranger's were capable of winning Europe's second most desirable competition a couple of years ago, despite falling at the final hurdle, and Celtic have made a habit of beating teams like Man U in recent years. The seventies were a time where, perhaps, teams on the continent were less developed.

Teams are miles ahead in training techniques these days, and kids are exposed to high quality players to look up to and model themselves on, on the TV just about every day/night. Whereas it was a rare treat to see the top quality teams and players of the day during the TT's era, we have become desensitised to it, and take a lot of great players for granted. In fact, I think the "Best Volley" thread makes a bit of a case for this, as Stewart v Aberdeen is IMO, one of the best of the lot, but won't be remembered in 20 years time like some of the others.

At the time of the TT's you had the emergence of the great Ajax side & some very powerful sides in Italy, England & Germany plus the Dutch total football was not too far off. I think it was just that our players [Scottish] were better than they are today.

Although training techniques have advanced out of all recognition, the bog like pitches back then ensured players had to be fit just to get through a season, never mind anything else. And back then it was more a team than a squad like today. Granted we have far more athletes today, but I don't think the skill factor is as high, imagine Ronaldo, Nani & co getting tackled in the manner Jimmy Johnstone, George Best & Eric Stevenson did?

[DaveF]

Part II is now on the front page

http://www.hibs.net/index.php?option...d=794&Itemid=1

[DaveF]

Bumping this for anyone who may have missed it.

[Ray_]

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Bumping this for anyone who may have missed it.

Bumping it up again.

Stu you must have had a few barrels of Mansfield Bitter smuggled away and indulged before assessing the mid field area's, Bremner = to Edwards & Collins = to Cropley, opinions eh.

I know both Des Bremner & John Collins were immensely successful after leaving Hibs, I thought both Alex's Edwards & Cropley had more impact though while they were with Hibs.

With wee Mickey the TT's were never the same when he wasn't playing & that is an enormous accolade for any player to have been so influential in such a magnificent team.

Alex Cropley played his best football at Hibs, he tore apart time and again excellent old firm sides & was a far more dynamic player than JC could ever be. I'll never forget his performance at Elland Road when he bewildered the extremely experienced Leeds United midfield, Leeds at that time were the all conquering English league leaders, who, up to that point, were battering all their opposition in the old first division, they were well in to what became a record of winning matches when a Cropley inspired Hibs totally out played them in England.

Sadly the injuries took there toll on sodjer & he never hit the heights his talent threatened he would, but in his time with Hibs he was immense. Who could forget his first regular spell of first team football when Hibs new manager, Eddie Turnbull, played him on the left wing in the league cup section games. Before the six games were out, Tom Hart was warning off potential suitors, as the big English clubs were queuing up to spend 200k on Scotland's hottest young talent. To put this in perspective, Alan Ball at 220k, was the British record transfer & a certain other young Scottish player was plying his trade at Celtic, in fact, Kenny Dalglish's first Scottish cap was won at Pittodrie, when young Dalglish came on to replace the Hibs youngster, who had been injured during the game.

As I said opinions eh & I've really enjoyed reading your work and can't wait for the next instalment tomorrow, you've certainly encouraged debate, which I'm sure was you're intention all along.

Much respect, Ray.

[DaveF]

and the 3rd and final part is on show today...............

http://www.hibs.net/index.php?option...d=795&Itemid=1

[stu in nottingham]

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Bumping it up again.

Stu you must have had a few barrels of Mansfield Bitter smuggled away and indulged before assessing the mid field area's, Bremner = to Edwards & Collins = to Cropley, opinions eh.

I know both Des Bremner & John Collins were immensely successful after leaving Hibs, I thought both Alex's Edwards & Cropley had more impact though while they were with Hibs.

With wee Mickey the TT's were never the same when he wasn't playing & that is an enormous accolade for any player to have been so influential in such a magnificent team.

Alex Cropley played his best football at Hibs, he tore apart time and again excellent old firm sides & was a far more dynamic player than JC could ever be. I'll never forget his performance at Elland Road when he bewildered the extremely experienced Leeds United midfield, Leeds at that time were the all conquering English league leaders, who, up to that point, were battering all their opposition in the old first division, they were well in to what became a record of winning matches when a Cropley inspired Hibs totally out played them in England.

Sadly the injuries took there toll on sodjer & he never hit the heights his talent threatened he would, but in his time with Hibs he was immense. Who could forget his first regular spell of first team football when Hibs new manager, Eddie Turnbull, played him on the left wing in the league cup section games. Before the six games were out, Tom Hart was warning off potential suitors, as the big English clubs were queuing up to spend 200k on Scotland's hottest young talent. To put this in perspective, Alan Ball at 220k, was the British record transfer & a certain other young Scottish player was plying his trade at Celtic, in fact, Kenny Dalglish's first Scottish cap was won at Pittodrie, when young Dalglish came on to replace the Hibs youngster, who had been injured during the game.

As I said opinions eh & I've really enjoyed reading your work and can't wait for the next instalment tomorrow, you've certainly encouraged debate, which I'm sure was you're intention all along.

Much respect, Ray.

Thought-provoking stuff Ray! Cheers for the kind words.

Alex Cropley is one of my three favourite Hibees of all-time ironically! You can see for that reason I find it very hard arguing against him! I could have over-compensated for the latter man but you could easily argue that in what he actually did for Hibs he achieved more than Collins. It's a comparison between two great players though I think and Collins did have one or two qualities that Alex didn't have. Perhaps these were not in pure skill but in the shrewd way he played the game. Some of Alex' fierce tackles were as harmful to himself as the opposition!

Although I rated these players equal for the purpose of this debate, I have a sneaking feeling you know which player I would have in MY side.

Maybe it's a little bit similar with Bremner/Edwards. There's no doubting who was the classiest performer between those two, not the most creative, but alternatively Bremner's temperament was definitely superior to Mickey's. Not as outrageously talented but he brought other things to the team as we know.

[Andy74]

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Bumping this for anyone who may have missed it.

Riordan left midfield of a 442??

[Ray_]

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Thought-provoking stuff Ray! Cheers for the kind words.

Alex Cropley is one of my three favourite Hibees of all-time ironically! You can see for that reason I find it very hard arguing against him! I could have over-compensated for the latter man but you could easily argue that in what he actually did for Hibs he achieved more than Collins. It's a comparison between two great players though I think and Collins did have one or two qualities that Alex didn't have. Perhaps these were not in pure skill but in the shrewd way he played the game. Some of Alex' fierce tackles were as harmful to himself as the opposition!

Although I rated these players equal for the purpose of this debate, I have a sneaking feeling you know which player I would have in MY side.

Maybe it's a little bit similar with Bremner/Edwards. There's no doubting who was the classiest performer between those two, not the most creative, but alternatively Bremner's temperament was definitely superior to Mickey's. Not as outrageously talented but he brought other things to the team as we know.

After reading the final part today I must say how much I enjoyed reading you’re articles and reminiscing & debating the points with you. Hopefully you’ll now consider the 60’s challenge [well after Sunday anyway].

Just a quick reflection you could have something like Simpson, McNamee, [given PS has been utilised by the TT’s], you could use Cormack in his Liverpool role & the original Joe Baker as the spine & with all the other marvellous players from that era available, it’s s extremely difficult but mouth watering task.

I would do it but I’m not as old or I should say “experienced” as you

[DaveF]

Just giving this another bump - Well worth a read (all 3)