SFL Nightmare

[Sylar]

The SFL decided yesterday to uphold their decision to demote Livingston to the third division (which they have every right to do). Their rules state that any club in administration, liquidation, under the control of an Interim manager or deemed to be heading to any of the above can be punished accordingly by the SFL management committee - this is creating 2 major headaches for the SFL:

a) Further fixture disruption, as Livi now take it to the next level by appealing to the SFA (which, again, they have every right to do), and

b) News has emerged this morning that Clyde are to be placed in administration by the start of next week, as the company who own their stadium are pressing them for £230k in unpaid rent. The SFL have made a rod for their own back with what they've done to Livingston, and will have utterly no option but to relegate Clyde to division 3 as well, causing further upheaval with even more appeals, as another 2 clubs will receive unmeritted promotion.

What a shambles!

[--------]

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The SFL decided yesterday to uphold their decision to demote Livingston to the third division (which they have every right to do). Their rules state that any club in administration, liquidation, under the control of an Interim manager or deemed to be heading to any of the above can be punished accordingly by the SFL management committee - this is creating 2 major headaches for the SFL:

a) Further fixture disruption, as Livi now take it to the next level by appealing to the SFA (which, again, they have every right to do), and

b) News has emerged this morning that Clyde are to be placed in administration by the start of next week, as the company who own their stadium are pressing them for £230k in unpaid rent. The SFL have made a rod for their own back with what they've done to Livingston, and will have utterly no option but to relegate Clyde to division 3 as well, causing further upheaval with even more appeals, as another 2 clubs will receive unmeritted promotion.

What a shambles!

By the end of September the Third Division will have 136 teams playing in it, and its season will have been officially extended until the middle of June 2012.

Rod's masterplan is beginning to bear fruit - two years from now WE will be the SPL! Nobody else, just us.

[marinello59]

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The SFL decided yesterday to uphold their decision to demote Livingston to the third division (which they have every right to do). Their rules state that any club in administration, liquidation, under the control of an Interim manager or deemed to be heading to any of the above can be punished accordingly by the SFL management committee - this is creating 2 major headaches for the SFL:

a) Further fixture disruption, as Livi now take it to the next level by appealing to the SFA (which, again, they have every right to do), and

b) News has emerged this morning that Clyde are to be placed in administration by the start of next week, as the company who own their stadium are pressing them for £230k in unpaid rent. The SFL have made a rod for their own back with what they've done to Livingston, and will have utterly no option but to relegate Clyde to division 3 as well, causing further upheaval with even more appeals, as another 2 clubs will receive unmeritted promotion.

What a shambles!

Would Clyde not be in a different situation in that the season has already started? Surely any punishment would be applied at the end of the season?

[marinello59]

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By the end of September the Third Division will have 136 teams playing in it, and its season will have been officially extended until the middle of June 2012.

Rod's masterplan is beginning to bear fruit - two years from now WE will be the SPL! Nobody else, just us.

I still wouldn't be overly confident that we would win it.

[blackpoolhibs]

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The SFL decided yesterday to uphold their decision to demote Livingston to the third division (which they have every right to do). Their rules state that any club in administration, liquidation, under the control of an Interim manager or deemed to be heading to any of the above can be punished accordingly by the SFL management committee - this is creating 2 major headaches for the SFL:

a) Further fixture disruption, as Livi now take it to the next level by appealing to the SFA (which, again, they have every right to do), and

b) News has emerged this morning that Clyde are to be placed in administration by the start of next week, as the company who own their stadium are pressing them for £230k in unpaid rent. The SFL have made a rod for their own back with what they've done to Livingston, and will have utterly no option but to relegate Clyde to division 3 as well, causing further upheaval with even more appeals, as another 2 clubs will receive unmeritted promotion.

What a shambles!

If this happens to clyde and they are demoted, there will be the obvious appeal, and there will be more teams playing more games they wont know if they are real or not. The players and managers and fans wont know if these games will count or not. Only in scotland could we organise a shambles like this.

[MussiHibee]

FFS.

What a Joke.

[Ritchie]

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I still wouldn't be overly confident that we would win it.

its only gonna get worse when the yams get demoted too......

[Antifa Hibs]

The only ones to blame are the clubs themselves. You'd think they'd learn from the likes of our mistakes, Dundee, Livingston, Motherwell etc etc and spend within their *** means.

The SPL & SFL need to get together and do something to sort this out as quite frankly its an embarrassment. Wether thats having two big leagues then the rest regional part-time leagues who knows, but something needs to be done.

Livi, Stirling, Stranraer, Cylde and Partick are struggling financially this season....

[jgl07]

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Would Clyde not be in a different situation in that the season has already started? Surely any punishment would be applied at the end of the season?

Exactly. They will have a points deduction for Administration and go down at the end of the season.

[Dashing Bob S]

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The only ones to blame are the clubs themselves. You'd think they'd learn from the likes of our mistakes, Dundee, Livingston, Motherwell etc etc and spend within their *** means.

The SPL & SFL need to get together and do something to sort this out as quite frankly its an embarrassment. Wether thats having two big leagues then the rest regional part-time leagues who knows, but something needs to be done.

Livi, Stirling, Stranraer, Cylde and Partick are struggling financially this season....

Their own stupidity. Hearts have proven that best economic management comes from simply owing money to yourself. Then you just don't both paying yourself back. If those clubs learned that simple lesson Scottish Football wouldn't be in such a mess.

[Dashing Bob S]

On a serious note, it's getting to the point, with the combination of greed/overambition/financial corruption/recession where Football Association's will have to do some sort of audit on every club before each campaign before granting them a certificate to take part in the league program.

There have been people who have not been fit to run clubs getting in control, who just don't have debt-asset-liquidity ratios healthy enough to guarantee a viable business.

It'll come to the point where the paperwork and hassles involved will actually be less than the ensuing fixture/legal/admin chaos.

[GreenPJ]

All the more reason for Scottish football to take the opportunity and lose a couple of clubs and make two leagues (the premier and championship for want of better names).

As a nation we cannot afford to maintain 40 clubs in 4 leagues.

[ballengeich]

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All the more reason for Scottish football to take the opportunity and lose a couple of clubs and make two leagues (the premier and championship for want of better names).

As a nation we cannot afford to maintain 40 clubs in 4 leagues.

And how will that stop over-ambitious chairmen spending too much?

[--------]

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On a serious note, it's getting to the point, with the combination of greed/overambition/financial corruption/recession where Football Association's will have to do some sort of audit on every club before each campaign before granting them a certificate to take part in the league program.

There have been people who have not been fit to run clubs getting in control, who just don't have debt-asset-liquidity ratios healthy enough to guarantee a viable business.

It'll come to the point where the paperwork and hassles involved will actually be less than the ensuing fixture/legal/admin chaos.

Happens in France - should have been happening here long since.

But when the chairman of the SPL is Lex Gold CBE, whose stewardship at ER saw us relegated, and the President of the SFA is George Peat, the man who supervised the demise of Airdrieonians FC - what do we expect?

And then, of course, there's Smith-must-score.....

[Hermit Crab]

The SFL are a joke, its times like this when we should be saving our clubs from extinction not pushing them further into the mire that is Scottish football. SFL need wake up and see what is happening because in ten years we might not have many clubs still playing at all, and they will only have themselves to blame for not acting fast enough to stop the demise of clubs that have been around for over a hundred years.

Its a joke that it has come to this anyway.

[jgl07]

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All the more reason for Scottish football to take the opportunity and lose a couple of clubs and make two leagues (the premier and championship for want of better names).

As a nation we cannot afford to maintain 40 clubs in 4 leagues.

It's actually 42 clubs if you count them.

This argument is bullsh*t.

It is nothing to do with the number of teams. It is down to the lunacy of attempting to run full time professional setup with a support of less than 1,000.

Clyde should stick with a part time professional staff. Livingston should foret trying to spend on a level with Hibs and Dundee United.

If clubs spend within their means there will be no problems.

[wazoo1875]

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It's actually 42 clubs if you count them.

This argument is bullsh*t.

It is nothing to do with the number of teams. It is down to the lunacy of attempting to run full time professional setup with a support of less than 1,000.

Clyde should stick with a part time professional staff. Livingston should foret trying to spend on a level with Hibs and Dundee United.

If clubs spend within their means there will be no problems.

and Hearts should stop spending at Real Madrids level
Clubs who live way beyond their means only have themselves to blame or rather the people who spent/wasted all the money should not be allowed to walk off whenever they wish . It's tragic that the SFL/SFA feel the need to actively try and bury these clubs though . It must be terrible for Livingstons fans just now .

[--------]

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It's actually 42 clubs if you count them.

This argument is bullsh*t.

It is nothing to do with the number of teams. It is down to the lunacy of attempting to run full time professional setup with a support of less than 1,000.

Clyde should stick with a part time professional staff. Livingston should foret trying to spend on a level with Hibs and Dundee United.

If clubs spend within their means there will be no problems.

Totally agree. There are plenty of Junior clubs running perfectly soundly because their committees spend within their budget and sign local talent and raise their own players.

Every club should have to file their budget and spending plans for the coming season with the SFA/SPL/SFL for approval before the start of the season. If they don't, they don't play. These plans would be under embargo - absolute confidentiality, under legal penalties, no exceptions.

Takeovers, too, should be under scrutiny from the governing bodies.

[GreenPJ]

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It's actually 42 clubs if you count them.

This argument is bullsh*t.

It is nothing to do with the number of teams. It is down to the lunacy of attempting to run full time professional setup with a support of less than 1,000.

Clyde should stick with a part time professional staff. Livingston should foret trying to spend on a level with Hibs and Dundee United.

If clubs spend within their means there will be no problems.

Clubs like Livi needed to spend to try and encourage a fanbase. Its hard enough trying to break the Old Firm monopoly but it will never happen without trying to have some sort of success.

All clubs are under pressure from fans/media to spend money and attract better players in the hope of bringing success. When you are under this pressure financial logic goes out the window.

The country cannot support 42 teams on a (semi)professional basis. Have as big a junior and amatuer set-up as you like but have a professional set-up to reflect the size of the country.

[Baldy]

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its only gonna get worse when the yams get demoted too......

I think you meant BETTER

[ballengeich]

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The country cannot support 42 teams on a (semi)professional basis. Have as big a junior and amatuer set-up as you like but have a professional set-up to reflect the size of the country.

In addition to our 42 league clubs, the juniors, east of scotland and highland leagues all operate on a semiprofessional basis, so your argument seems to be that they should all be extinguished. I assume that's not your intention, so what are advocating?

I continually hear people claiming that we have too many teams, but I've never encountered someone who can explain how their proposed structure will bring any benefit to Scottish football in general. If smaller teams disappear from the league, their supporters will either be lost to the game or will switch to a local junior or amateur side - no benefit to the remaining clubs.

[Green_one]

[QUOTE=Doddie;2129464]Totally agree. There are plenty of Junior clubs running perfectly soundly because their committees spend within their budget and sign local talent and raise their own players.

Every club should have to file their budget and spending plans for the coming season with the SFA/SPL/SFL for approval before the start of the season. If they don't, they don't play. QUOTE]

Many Junior clubs are struggling too, some of them big ones.

I agree with the need to monitor financial plans but the bottom line is that some clubs would be struggling to produce a viable plan at all. Such is the state of affairs of the clubs. Even well run clubs would need to pitch on a degree of guess work regarding TV monies and Season Tickets. If you applied this to the EPL, God alone knows what the impact would be. No clubs get to play perhaps.

[Cod Boy]

scottish football is a joke we are a laughing stock in europe and our national team is worse. To many idiots run the game its always jobs for the boys we need to empty them from the sfa and spl and get new faces with new ideas our we will be on par with welsh league football or worse

[jgl07]

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Clubs like Livi needed to spend to try and encourage a fanbase. Its hard enough trying to break the Old Firm monopoly but it will never happen without trying to have some sort of success.

All clubs are under pressure from fans/media to spend money and attract better players in the hope of bringing success. When you are under this pressure financial logic goes out the window.

The country cannot support 42 teams on a (semi)professional basis. Have as big a junior and amatuer set-up as you like but have a professional set-up to reflect the size of the country.

But the Junior teams are semi-professional! They seem to manage OK. They often have more support (and pay higher wages) than SFL 2 teams.

I would suggest a pyramid type system as below:

SPL 16 teams: Full tme professional clubs.

SFL 16 teams: Full and part time professional clubs

East of Scotland 16 teams: Part time professional and amateur teams based on current SFL teams plus Junior and Senior teams

South of Scotland 16 teams: Part time professional and amateur teams based on current SFL teams plus Junior and Senior teams

Highland League 16 teams: Part time professional and amateur teams based on SFL teams from Angus and Highland League teams.

There would be Junior Leagues feeding into the regional leaues.

There would be promotion and relegation between SFL and SPL. Promoted clubs must adopt a full time professional regime on promotion. Financial tests would be applied to see if clubs are capable of surviving.

There would be promotion and relegation beteen the SFL and the regional leagues. This may involve teams being switched from one regional league to another to acommodate the relegated clubs.

This is basically how things are run in France. They have three national leagues: One, Two, and National with regionalized leagues below.

[Hainan Hibs]

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I would suggest a pyramid type system as below:

SPL 16 teams: Full tme professional clubs.

SFL 16 teams: Full and part time professional clubs

East of Scotland 16 teams: Part time professional and amateur teams based on current SFL teams plus Junior and Senior teams

South of Scotland 16 teams: Part time professional and amateur teams based on current SFL teams plus Junior and Senior teams

Highland League 16 teams: Part time professional and amateur teams based on SFL teams from Angus and Highland League teams.

There would be Junior Leagues feeding into the regional leaues.

There would be promotion and relegation between SFL and SPL. Promoted clubs must adopt a full time professional regime on promotion. Financial tests would be applied to see if clubs are capable of surviving.

There would be promotion and relegation beteen the SFL and the regional leagues. This may involve teams being switched from one regional league to another to acommodate the relegated clubs.

That's exactly what I would go for and I think lots more people would want it to, unfortunately it is too much common sense for the muppets incharge of football here.

Scottish football needs completely revamped.

[ballengeich]

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But the Junior teams are semi-professional! They seem to manage OK. They often have more support (and pay higher wages) than SFL 2 teams.

I would suggest a pyramid type system as below:

SPL 16 teams: Full tme professional clubs.

SFL 16 teams: Full and part time professional clubs

East of Scotland 16 teams: Part time professional and amateur teams based on current SFL teams plus Junior and Senior teams

South of Scotland 16 teams: Part time professional and amateur teams based on current SFL teams plus Junior and Senior teams

Highland League 16 teams: Part time professional and amateur teams based on SFL teams from Angus and Highland League teams.

There would be Junior Leagues feeding into the regional leaues.

There would be promotion and relegation between SFL and SPL. Promoted clubs must adopt a full time professional regime on promotion. Financial tests would be applied to see if clubs are capable of surviving.

There would be promotion and relegation beteen the SFL and the regional leagues. This may involve teams being switched from one regional league to another to acommodate the relegated clubs.

This is basically how things are run in France. They have three national leagues: One, Two, and National with regionalized leagues below.

What would this achieve? Would it improve the standard of skill and entertainment at our football grounds?

I accept that there should be minimum financial (and ground) standards required when a team is promoted, but otherwise it just looks like something which appeals to the tidy bureaucratic mind.

[Mibbes Aye]

I genuinely don't know the answer to this, be grateful for input from someone who did.

What's the deal with the Juniors? Historically they've opted out of the 'senior' league set-up and it's only been very recently they've opted in to the Scottish Cup.

Is there any interest from them in being part of a senior league set-up now?

[--------]

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But the Junior teams are semi-professional! They seem to manage OK. They often have more support (and pay higher wages) than SFL 2 teams.

I would suggest a pyramid type system as below:

SPL 16 teams: Full tme professional clubs.

SFL 16 teams: Full and part time professional clubs

East of Scotland 16 teams: Part time professional and amateur teams based on current SFL teams plus Junior and Senior teams

South of Scotland 16 teams: Part time professional and amateur teams based on current SFL teams plus Junior and Senior teams

Highland League 16 teams: Part time professional and amateur teams based on SFL teams from Angus and Highland League teams.

There would be Junior Leagues feeding into the regional leaues.

There would be promotion and relegation between SFL and SPL. Promoted clubs must adopt a full time professional regime on promotion. Financial tests would be applied to see if clubs are capable of surviving.

There would be promotion and relegation beteen the SFL and the regional leagues. This may involve teams being switched from one regional league to another to acommodate the relegated clubs.

This is basically how things are run in France. They have three national leagues: One, Two, and National with regionalized leagues below.

France was the example I was thinking of.

If the majority of clubs would be unable to produce a budget and projected spending plan during the close-season, that tells us exactly where the problem lies. The boards and committees running the clubs haven't a clue. "Money in, money out - you mean we have to count it?"

Most clubs in Scotland are run without any proper financial forward planning beyond, "Let's hope we drawn at Ibrox or Parkhead in the CIS Cup/Scottish Cup/both Cups..."

They have no commercial plan, they have no training ground or projected youth development program. Too many testosterone junkies chasing the dream - not enough hard-headed business and sports people running and developing the clubs and the game.

That will HAVE to change, or there will be no Scottish game left in 20 years time.

[Mibbes Aye]

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If this happens to clyde and they are demoted, there will be the obvious appeal, and there will be more teams playing more games they wont know if they are real or not. The players and managers and fans wont know if these games will count or not. Only in scotland could we organise a shambles like this.

How would you have avoided this/responded to it?

[ballengeich]

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I genuinely don't know the answer to this, be grateful for input from someone who did.

What's the deal with the Juniors? Historically they've opted out of the 'senior' league set-up and it's only been very recently they've opted in to the Scottish Cup.

Is there any interest from them in being part of a senior league set-up now?

No junior club has applied for league membership during recent expansions. I suspect that the cost of upgrading grounds to meet league requirements is prohibitive - for a start, juniors don't play midweek games once floodlights are required. Crowds at top junior games can match those at lower division games, but the entrance fee is half to a third of league charges so the money coming in isn't as much.

For a lot of juniors, and their supporters, part of the appeal is being top dogs at their own level. I suspect that if the successful clubs moved up a level and started losing more than they won the crowds would soon drop.