The Trans Rights Debate

Couldn't see another thread on this (though I'm sure there was one) so thought it best to start one in its own right. Admins please move if the other thread does exist.

I see that Netflix via Dave Chappelle is now a focal point for the angry voices on either side of this one, hard on the heels of a series of domestic criticisms and defences of Stonewall. It feels to me like this is growing as a political issue as it reaches greater public awareness. It needs resolved fast before the Trumps and Johnsons of this world are able to weaponise it for culture war but I just don't see any easy way of doing so.

I've not see the Dave Chapelle show in question so I'll happily admit to speaking from a position of ignorance, he may well have crossed a line. However I remember hearing Val McDermid speaking a couple of years back about a certain Irn Bru advert (I'm sure some will remember it) that has obviously not aged well. She suggested that sometimes you just have to accept that something is a joke, laugh it off and compartmentalise it separately from genuine discrimination. Given she is someone who has campaigned for and written extensively about LGBTQ+ rights I think she is probably worth listening to.

More generally I think the 'trans debate' is very noisy with 2 sides shouting slogans and 'their' science at each other but it actually impacts a tiny number of people. Basic rights for people who have transitioned largely don't directly impact on the day to day lives of most of us. The idea that people are going to use self ID as a means of gaining access to women's changing rooms seems a comparable level of scaremongering to what homosexuals came up against in the 70s and 80s. Yes, there may be the odd rogue case but it's hardly going to become the norm. On something of a flip side I would suggest various organisations need to move past the 'bodies with a cervix' stuff though and just call women what they are. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that trans women have a heightened awareness of their own bodies given it has been an issue for them their whole lives. Are they really going to pitch up for a smear test if leaflets and adverts ask women to come forward?

It really doesn't seem all that difficult to allow people who have undergone reassignment surgery or are in the process of doing so to live their lives as a man or a woman whilst still respecting the rights and safety of others. In fact it seems a lot of those rights overlap. A bit common sense and a rational discussion would go a long way but I think we are some way from that point as things stand. There is near hysteria on both sides of the debate.

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

I've not see the Dave Chapelle show in question so I'll happily admit to speaking from a position of ignorance, he may well have crossed a line. However I remember hearing Val McDermid speaking a couple of years back about a certain Irn Bru advert (I'm sure some will remember it) that has obviously not aged well. She suggested that sometimes you just have to accept that something is a joke, laugh it off and compartmentalise it separately from genuine discrimination. Given she is someone who has campaigned for and written extensively about LGBTQ+ rights I think she is probably worth listening to.

More generally I think the 'trans debate' is very noisy with 2 sides shouting slogans and 'their' science at each other but it actually impacts a tiny number of people. Basic rights for people who have transitioned largely don't directly impact on the day to day lives of most of us. The idea that people are going to use self ID as a means of gaining access to women's changing rooms seems a comparable level of scaremongering to what homosexuals came up against in the 70s and 80s. Yes, there may be the odd rogue case but it's hardly going to become the norm. On something of a flip side I would suggest various organisations need to move past the 'bodies with a cervix' stuff though and just call women what they are. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that trans women have a heightened awareness of their own bodies given it has been an issue for them their whole lives. Are they really going to pitch up for a smear test if leaflets and adverts ask women to come forward?

It really doesn't seem all that difficult to allow people who have undergone reassignment surgery or are in the process of doing so to live their lives as a man or a woman whilst still respecting the rights and safety of others. In fact it seems a lot of those rights overlap. A bit common sense and a rational discussion would go a long way but I think we are some way from that point as things stand. There is near hysteria on both sides of the debate.

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What is wrong with calling it what it really is, human rights?

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

I've not see the Dave Chapelle show in question so I'll happily admit to speaking from a position of ignorance, he may well have crossed a line. However I remember hearing Val McDermid speaking a couple of years back about a certain Irn Bru advert (I'm sure some will remember it) that has obviously not aged well. She suggested that sometimes you just have to accept that something is a joke, laugh it off and compartmentalise it separately from genuine discrimination. Given she is someone who has campaigned for and written extensively about LGBTQ+ rights I think she is probably worth listening to.

More generally I think the 'trans debate' is very noisy with 2 sides shouting slogans and 'their' science at each other but it actually impacts a tiny number of people. Basic rights for people who have transitioned largely don't directly impact on the day to day lives of most of us. The idea that people are going to use self ID as a means of gaining access to women's changing rooms seems a comparable level of scaremongering to what homosexuals came up against in the 70s and 80s. Yes, there may be the odd rogue case but it's hardly going to become the norm. On something of a flip side I would suggest various organisations need to move past the 'bodies with a cervix' stuff though and just call women what they are. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that trans women have a heightened awareness of their own bodies given it has been an issue for them their whole lives. Are they really going to pitch up for a smear test if leaflets and adverts ask women to come forward?

It really doesn't seem all that difficult to allow people who have undergone reassignment surgery or are in the process of doing so to live their lives as a man or a woman whilst still respecting the rights and safety of others. In fact it seems a lot of those rights overlap. A bit common sense and a rational discussion would go a long way but I think we are some way from that point as things stand. There is near hysteria on both sides of the debate.

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Something as seemingly uncontentious as this goes to the heart of the current 'debate' which isn't actually a debate at all, it's a jargon-littered war with both sides locked on transmit and no receive. That isn't doing either Trans or women's rights any favours.

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

I've not see the Dave Chapelle show in question so I'll happily admit to speaking from a position of ignorance, he may well have crossed a line. However I remember hearing Val McDermid speaking a couple of years back about a certain Irn Bru advert (I'm sure some will remember it) that has obviously not aged well. She suggested that sometimes you just have to accept that something is a joke, laugh it off and compartmentalise it separately from genuine discrimination. Given she is someone who has campaigned for and written extensively about LGBTQ+ rights I think she is probably worth listening to.

More generally I think the 'trans debate' is very noisy with 2 sides shouting slogans and 'their' science at each other but it actually impacts a tiny number of people. Basic rights for people who have transitioned largely don't directly impact on the day to day lives of most of us. The idea that people are going to use self ID as a means of gaining access to women's changing rooms seems a comparable level of scaremongering to what homosexuals came up against in the 70s and 80s. Yes, there may be the odd rogue case but it's hardly going to become the norm. On something of a flip side I would suggest various organisations need to move past the 'bodies with a cervix' stuff though and just call women what they are. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that trans women have a heightened awareness of their own bodies given it has been an issue for them their whole lives. Are they really going to pitch up for a smear test if leaflets and adverts ask women to come forward?

It really doesn't seem all that difficult to allow people who have undergone reassignment surgery or are in the process of doing so to live their lives as a man or a woman whilst still respecting the rights and safety of others. In fact it seems a lot of those rights overlap. A bit common sense and a rational discussion would go a long way but I think we are some way from that point as things stand. There is near hysteria on both sides of the debate.

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Way too sensible a post, there is zero screeching/growling in it which adds nothing to the direction "social media" wants it to go. [emoji1]

I've attended night clubs all my life (still do occasionally) then found myself working with and alongside many of the artists involved in US style House Music. House/Disco came about because gay/trans/hispanic/Black people weren't accepted in "normal" estaishments, so the built their own culture - browse for the history of Dave Mancuso's Loft parties for that history.

Those clubs are theirs. I'm accepted, a white heterosexual, as a "step-child" of House given I'm none of the above, but still accepted. The gay/trans people I've met and befriended have an attitude that couldn't be further away from that displayed within the debates that I've seen, on social media especially. They see us all as human beings and don't enjoy being put in a box.

I can only think that the "stirring up" of anger and entrenched views stem mainly from bad actors who see yet another avenue towards a bone of contention within the culture wars.

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Who knew there was so much money involved and to be made from this.

https://thefederalist.com/2018/02/20...nder-ideology/

Given there is so much dough involved I'm more convinced than ever that the anonymous cowards that harrass people on social media and cost perfectly reasonable people their jobs are paid bots.

Dave Chapelle is bang on. If a "rights" movement involves rich, white, male capitalists then everyone else has to move down the queue.

The wife has been saying the same for ages, the "trans movement" and those "identifying" as "a woman" want all the hard won stuff that feminists have gained over the years but they want it and grab it with the sensibilities of the old school patriarchy.

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Because of this stupid Trans-Rights debate, everything you say is potentially offensive. They've even had to create new, PC versions of old jokes and phrases.


e.g. "...Aye, and if my Aunty decided to self identify as a man, she'd be my Uncle".


I mean, that's not even funny!

The sharing changing rooms in shops issue gets made a lot.

Not sure why women are being required to use communal changing rooms. I’ve never had to use a communal changing room in a shop in my puff. They’re always individual cubicles. Women shouldn’t have to put up with that if its the case.

Strikes me women don’t get very considerate treatment. Like the total under provision of women’s toilets in places like theatres.

We heard of a girl at an independent school who insists on being referred to as "they" - two people as it were. She's being indulged in this too! Her friends are also considering regendering etc apparently.
That's one wacky school! Not enough cold baths and hockey sticks in my view.

I've watched a few you tubes of Dave Chappelle, he's a really funny guy, it's comedy, not to be taken serious, I find it quite ironic that that you have middle class white people claiming to be progressive and trying to get a black comedian cancelled, sums up the confused times were living in.

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

I've watched a few you tubes of Dave Chappelle, he's a really funny guy, it's comedy, not to be taken serious, I find it quite ironic that that you have middle class white people claiming to be progressive and trying to get a black comedian cancelled, sums up the confused times were living in.

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He does switch to serious though. He's capable of turning his gags around to make a point.

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Originally Posted by Kato

He does switch to serious though. He's capable of turning his gags around to make a point.

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He's a comedian, he doesn't make serious points he makes jokes, he covers a lot of ground but it seems like it's only people who think that a biological man can become a woman by simply declaring he's a woman that think he's making a serious point.

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

He's a comedian, he doesn't make serious points he makes jokes, he covers a lot of ground but it seems like it's only people who think that a biological man can become a woman by simply declaring he's a woman that think he's making a serious point.

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Are we talking about Eddie Izzard here, although I wouldn't call him/her/it a comedian.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Are we talking about Eddie Izzard here, although I wouldn't call him/her/it a comedian.

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Hopefully not I find Eddie Izzard a bit irritating.

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

He's a comedian, he doesn't make serious points he makes jokes, he covers a lot of ground but it seems like it's only people who think that a biological man can become a woman by simply declaring he's a woman that think he's making a serious point.

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I don't think you are listening all that closely, which is fair enough as some things have layers to be looked at or not.

A quick Google search showed this among many articles covering his change in style.

https://www.vulture.com/2018/01/dave...-be-taken.html

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The changing room argument is nonsense in my view but the elite sport one needs consideration and has been an issue for a long time.

Live and let live I say and whether an individual identifies as one gender or not means nowhere near as much to me as if they are honest, generous, decent and a huge number of other factors that make them a good or bad person. The only person I regularly speak to who identifies differently to the norm just wants a bit of respect. Their action towards others will be the deciding factor in how gain that respect with the majority of the population

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Originally Posted by heretoday

We heard of a girl at an independent school who insists on being referred to as "they" - two people as it were. She's being indulged in this too! Her friends are also considering regendering etc apparently.
That's one wacky school! Not enough cold baths and hockey sticks in my view.

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I'm not so sure what the fuss is about. Royals have been calling themselves "we" for centuries and no one seems bothered. Maybe we should stop indulging Lizzy? Cold bath for her perhaps?

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Originally Posted by neil7908

I'm not so sure what the fuss is about. Royals have been calling themselves "we" for centuries and no one seems bothered. Maybe we should stop indulging Lizzy? Cold bath for her perhaps?

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They are not amused

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

He's a comedian, he doesn't make serious points he makes jokes, he covers a lot of ground but it seems like it's only people who think that a biological man can become a woman by simply declaring he's a woman that think he's making a serious point.

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Dave Chappelle does a lot of social commentary. His 8:46 show is incredibly compelling, and there's hardly a joke in it.

Given the current Hannah Gadsby blowback, I find it ironic that not only is Dave Chappelle better at being funny than her, but also better at not being funny.

Anyone who thinks Dave Chappelle is just a comedian hasn't paid close enough attention. He's sharp as a tack politically and most of his content is rooted in politics.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Are we talking about Eddie Izzard here, although I wouldn't call him/her/it a comedian.

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What hope is there for decency or an informed debate when people refer to another human being as 'it'? :rolleyes:

Not OK.

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Originally Posted by heretoday

We heard of a girl at an independent school who insists on being referred to as "they" - two people as it were. She's being indulged in this too! Her friends are also considering regendering etc apparently.
That's one wacky school! Not enough cold baths and hockey sticks in my view.

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Wait until you get on Ze & Zir

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Originally Posted by Sylar

What hope is there for decency or an informed debate when people refer to another human being as 'it'? :rolleyes:

Not OK.

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Agreed, I thought about reporting it but I'm not a snitch.

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Originally Posted by Sylar

What hope is there for decency or an informed debate when people refer to another human being as 'it'? :rolleyes:

Not OK.

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Would you mind explaining that to my wife. I don't find it particularly flattering when we're in the cafe and she says to the person serving "it wants another cup of coffee".

https://news.sky.com/story/transgend...snt-sf-twitter

Transgender women should not be forced to reduce their testosterone levels to compete in sports, new International Olympic Committee (IOC) guidelines have said.

The IOC has labelled athlete sex testing as "invasive" and "disrespectful" in a new report that looks to be promote inclusion for transgender competitors

The guidelines will replace ones from 2015 and reverses the IOC's previous stance on transgender athletes.

Ridiculous it could get to a point when it's unusual for someone born a woman to win a boxing gold

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

https://news.sky.com/story/transgend...snt-sf-twitter

Transgender women should not be forced to reduce their testosterone levels to compete in sports, new International Olympic Committee (IOC) guidelines have said.

The IOC has labelled athlete sex testing as "invasive" and "disrespectful" in a new report that looks to be promote inclusion for transgender competitors

The guidelines will replace ones from 2015 and reverses the IOC's previous stance on transgender athletes.

Ridiculous it could get to a point when it's unusual for someone born a woman to win a boxing gold

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Have a spectrum of medals given there are a spectrum of people out there. It's done with the Paralympics.

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Originally Posted by Kato

Have a spectrum of medals given there are a spectrum of people out there. It's done with the Paralympics.

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We shouldn't be moving the goalposts of a secular competition based on belief - and identity is just that.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

We shouldn't be moving the goalposts of a secular competition based on belief - and identity is just that.

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Sometimes. Sometimes it's just fact.

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Originally Posted by Kato

Sometimes. Sometimes it's just fact.

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Sex is absolutely a fact. Gender is a belief that people have built up around those facts.

One is measurable and definable, the other is not. In matters like this, we must a stand by what is proven and measurable. This is "prayer in school" stuff.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

Sex is absolutely a fact.

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I get confused easily. Is intersex also a fact? :dunno: