I'm a lifelong Labour voter, but, having heard the crap coming out of the Tories this week, I am seriously considering voting 'Yes' in the referendum if that is going to be the future.
I'd be interested to hear other's thoughts.
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I'm a lifelong Labour voter, but, having heard the crap coming out of the Tories this week, I am seriously considering voting 'Yes' in the referendum if that is going to be the future.
I'd be interested to hear other's thoughts.
Just this week? :whistle:Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel
I think more and more people are swaying towards a yes vote as the Referendum draws closer. A 'Yes' vote next year will ensure that we are governed by governments which the majority of people in Scotland voted for, which evidently isn't the case just now with the Tories in charge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel
Don't let the Tories be your sole reason for voting yes, there are many other more positive arguements for independence!
Saor Alba
I'll be voting no - in fact I don't personally know anyone (out of the few people I've discussed it with) who intends to vote yes. These things tend to work like that, you tend to hang around with people with similar opinions to yourself which can lead to a bit of an echo chamber forming.
Its a purely heart over head thing for me. I'm British and Scottish and I can't imagine being anything else. I'm proud to be British and Scottish. I was born that way and I'll die that way, a referendum can't change it.
Having said that my head says stay with the Union too. I think we'll be better off economically, be more stable and have more influence as part of the UK.
I would like change though. My own preferred solution would be to move to a federal model with separate Scottish, Welsh, N Irish, English (probably more than one English, maybe North, Mid, South and London) parliaments handling all local issues and a British parliament to deal with foreign policy, defence and serious crime.
IMHO the sooner we get the referendum over and done with, the better. I'll admit to being totally scunnered of the nonsense spouted by both sides. It's been a debate short on facts and full of pie-in-the-sky notions of the future.
I worked with all shades of party during almost 40 years with the Civil Service before I retired earlier this year.
The one thing that struck me about the Torys was they are totally money/profit orintated and would sell their granny to make a buck.
The financial argument must be then that Scotland makes a profit and conversely would be better off on its own. If Scotland was a drain on the UK economy they would get shot of us in the blink of an eye.
But for me its not about the money.
Why I do want independence is because I think it is utterly immoral for a country to be ruled over by another. I think it’s immoral for them to do so and for Scotland to consider itself too week kneed to take a position in the world on its own is shameful.
After 300 years it’s about time we left the foster parental home, one which we weren’t fussy to be in in the first place and make our own way. Grow up, fly the nest and act like a responsibly country.
It’s not like we don't have family; the UK; Europe; NATO; the UN et al that we can look to for guidance and make our own contribution and anyone who dares suggest that in a grown up world an independent Scotland wouldn’t be welcome in any of these is really just wetting their nappy.
I'm certain to vote yes. Fundamentally, decisions should be made as close to the people by people they affect as possible. There's
nothing nationalistic to it - I see it as a simple fact. I think both campaigns have been pretty dismal, I think the debate in the media is tilted an biased. I find some of the arguments totally spurious. I suspect it will be a no vote but I think more than enough people will vote yes as to keep it on the agenda. Then lets see what 4 years of Boris in number 10 and then a jingoistic In/Out EU Referendum does to those whose pencils waivered before crossing 'No'.
Other than that, Miliband is desperately unconvincing as opposition leader that he makes Cameron look good. And who are the LibDems?
My heart says vote yes but my head questions whether a Scottish Government can be trusted. When I think about the money wasted on the Scottish Parliament and the trams it makes me very nervous. Hundreds of millions of pounds on vanity projects meanwhile people like me haven't had a wage rise for 3 years because there's "no money" and care services are being cut everywhere. Still as long as the tourists are happy eh.
It's a valid worry, I think. However, independence doesn't heighten the risk of daft projects and public money being squandered, it just brings it slightly closer to home.Quote:
Originally Posted by EH6 Hibby
Looking at some aspects of Cross Rail, the Millennium Dome, the referendum on AV, the trident replacement, the recent controversy over the procurement process for a West Coast line provider which cost several millions, universal benefit entitlements and a couple of extremely expensive military misadventures in Iraq and Afghanistan and it's clear that the risk of politicians grandstanding with public money is very much alive and well within the Union.
The difference here is that the politicians could be made much more accountable.
This is the sort of stuff I've hated about the debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
What country are we 'ruled over' by? Did that still apply when a disproportionate number of the Cabinet were Scots under the last Labour government?
You can apply this sort of thinking to any government. The UK government is hardly immune to cost overrun: channel tunnel, millennium dome etc. but sometimes even bigger waste doesn't make the same impact in the public consciousness:Quote:
Originally Posted by EH6 Hibby
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...abandoned.html
That pretty much sums up it for me. The UK is ridiculously over centralised and attempts to change that via devolution have just led to a lopsided mess where a parliament has legislative authority and the power to spend without the corresponding responsibility of finding the money. I'd be happy enough with devo-max and I still think that's where we might eventually end up but independence is preferable to me because we'd get control of foreign policy. There are still far too many post-imperial hangovers knocking about in London: see the gnashing of teeth over the UK's "diminished status" because they're not getting to be involved in an upcoming Syrian conflict. Have these people learned nothing?Quote:
Originally Posted by steakbake
Independence is for life, not just for Christmas. We get the power to shape our own place in the world going forward. If we don't like something or we want to do something differently, we will have the power to do it, not whine and moan about why we can't.
Try and find any small country out there that used to belong to a superstate and see if they want to rejoin.
The Yes camp seem to be making out this is a referendum on the Conservative / Lib Dem coalition at Westminster - that's why Salmond challenged David Cameron to a debate - he's trying to make it a Scotland vs. England.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel
I'd love to hear them. The Yes camp are always accusing Better Together of being negative but every nationalist I speak to seems to say the Conservative party are the sole reason for voting Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpyHibby
Whenever the Tories are in power, we are ruled by a government we didn't vote for. That's roughly 50% of the time. 1 Tory MP in Scotland presently so not even marginal. If you take the Scottish vote out of every election since the War, the result would have been the same. We do not have a say in our future currently and are ruled by London and the south east of England. That is the biggest argument for Independence IMO. Scottish issues should be governed by Scotland to benefit Scotland. Yes we will make mistakes but will they be as costly as the mistakes made in Westminster? I'll gladly take that chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefster
Incidentally, in an independent Scotland, Labour would dominate and probably have a near monopoly on government. That's probably the biggest argument against independence.
I'll give you Holyrood, but the trams were saved by the Scottish govt from the diabolical Edinburgh council.And for every Holyrood a Yes voter could give a Forth Crossing...coming in under budget and earlier than planned.Quote:
Originally Posted by EH6 Hibby
I hate the way we're portrayed as a leech on rUK, how we should be grateful to be part of this magnificent global power with all the blessed baubles that come along with such honour.We'd not have the same standing on the international stage, we'd not be taken seriously by other countries or our impact on international matters would be diminished by being cut adrift from the power house of No.10.We're stronger together, we're safe as being part of a greater whole and the umbrella of security provided The United Kingdom.
So the questions have to be:
What impression does Scotland want on the international stage?Do we want to be sat round the table with Obama and Putin as they carve everything up?
Why wouldn't other democratic countries take us seriously if we were independent?Would we be seen as backward savages not worthy of trade?
What are we safe against that we wouldn't be safe against if we were independent?Would our 'safety' increase post Yes or decrease?
I hate how The NHS is being sliced and diced, I hate how we're forced to contribute to things like HS2,crossrail,Olympics,Thames water and refurbishing the palace of Westminster, but have to fund A90 dualing,Forth crossings,Commie games and yes,trams without any funding coming from London...none of that can be fair.
I hate how the majority of Scottish citizens are against nuclear weapons but we have them on our doorstep.
and one thing I would hope, is a strong OLD labour with the values Scotland values comes out of any yes victory, along with a Scottish conservative party too.
:confused: Not really seeing how you've arrived at this conclusion. Can you explain why ?Quote:
Originally Posted by AberGreen
Because the SNP's job will be done and I suspect they will not be the power they are now. A lot of people vote for them because of the common goal without really caring about other policies. If that goal is achieved, then their pull will be vastly reduced. The political landscape will completely change and I suspect there will be many new parties that will spring up all over the place and current minority parties such as the SSP, Greens etc growing. This will leave Scottish Labour as the major force. All speculation and conjecture at the moment though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Treadstone
Thought so.:greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by AberGreen
Good point, well made!Quote:
Originally Posted by Treadstone
I can only speak for myself. I've voted SNP for the last 20 years or so. If we were to gain independence, I will be looking a bit deeper at alternatives. I suspect many others will do likewise.
You don't deserve a pay rise.Quote:
Originally Posted by EH6 Hibby
You're right but then that argument could be applied to any region of around 10% of the electorate. When I vote in the UK elections, I understand that we go with the majority of the UK - just the same as when I vote in the Scottish or East Lothian council elections. The actual location of the government doesn't matter to me any more than it would if I was living in Shetland in an independent Scotland.Quote:
Originally Posted by AberGreen
Conversely, longer-term, an independent Scotland would probably have a far higher number of centre-right politicians too - especially if there were no ties to the Tories.
An interesting argument. If that were the case, why are Labour part of Better Together and vehemently not in favour of Independence? How self sacrificing of them!Quote:
Originally Posted by AberGreen
The devolution settlement was set up to ensure no one party ever formed a majority in Holyrood. It was designed to keep the SNP out. That has clearly worked well.
In the interests of balance and that an independent Scotland doesn't become some kind of socialist experiment, I hope you are right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefster
In the short term though many of those centre right people might be from the conservatives. That brand will take a couple of terms to be less toxic - a bit like Labour pre-Blair (and post-Brown).
Someone else has answered the trams fiasco one so I'll leave that. The Scottish Parliament building was paid for by Westminster.Quote:
Originally Posted by EH6 Hibby
For examples of the Scottish Parliament looking after huge projects the current Forth bridge crossing might be a better example. Current estimates suggest its coming in early and under budget. I think the M74 extension was the same.
I don't get this at all: Scotland hasn't been "ruled over" by another country, so what's this immoral aspect you have introduced to the debate, and "them" - who on earth are "them"? Scotland is part of the UK - it is governed by a democratically-elected UK government - a government voted for by the Scottish (along with the rest of the UK) - just because "your" party doesn't win an election doesn't mean "you" are being oppressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Personally, I agree with BARCAHIBS - I think a federal setup would benefit the UK as a whole much better than the current London-centric situation.
Well, firstly you have to decide in your own mind if Scotland is indeed a country in its own right, or a region of the UK – like the North East, North West, but we’re even North of North so we get to keep Scotland as a name, North of North doesn’t have much of a ring to it anyway :greengrin.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeeJay
An ONS publication today listed the UK Regions as; North East, North West, Yorkshire and The Humber, East Midlands, West Midlands, East of England, London, South East, South West, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Some people, as is their right, like Scotland to be a Region of the UK.
Legally Scotland is a Region of the UK as determined by the UK government and the capital of Scotland is London.
But Scotland has its own legal system, education system, its own NHS and is recognised as a country by the Commonwealth and FIFA among others. Historically it was a sort of country in its own right – what may or may not have been classed as a country 300 years ago isn't quite the same as now.
I like to think of Scotland as a country and as such England is also a country. Decisions on Scotland are being taken in a place where the vast majority of those making these decisions are not from Scottish seats. Even the Scottish Parliament is dictated to by Westminster by them determining the budget based on politics rather than what Scotland raises.
Incidentally, I have no party, never been a card carrying member of any party and normally tell anyone who comes to me door to bolt, unless I want to complain bitterly about how useless our councillors, MPSs and MPs are – the lot of them! :greengrin
Attending a debate in Wigtown tomorrow with Brian Taylor, I'm desperate to hear the "positive" case for independence.
For a number of reasons, possibly because I haven't clapped eyes on Salmond for a while :wink:, I'm much closer to voting for Independence than I have ever been. I'm not quite there, yet, and I'm just as likely to be pushed back again by some bigot's jingoistic anti-English rant in the run up to the electionQuote:
Originally Posted by stranraerhibby
The disgusting scenes at Ibrox and the picture of the 3 "British" soldiers displaying the Keep Ulster Protestant have only pushed me further towards the Yes camp. The prospect of ridding us of that with one little vote is highly appealing.
i also found this video very interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw_dVhy0Kqo
Voting yes, I really dont see any reason not to.