https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/m...-snp-36lb7dljk
SNP still trying to claim UK would be paying Scottish pensions after independence. :greengrin
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/m...-snp-36lb7dljk
SNP still trying to claim UK would be paying Scottish pensions after independence. :greengrin
Yet state pensions continue to be paid to ex pats. Strange one.:rolleyes:
I don't understand the difference as how is paying a pension to someone that lived in the UK but not lives in France any different to someone that lives in a Independent Scotland.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlex
In my opinion the UK would cease to exist once we left but that's not what they are claiming...
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You're getting upset by an anti-SNP article in The Times?Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
Take a share of national debt, you say?
That’s because pensions are paid by the current tax payers, not those receiving them (as they paid for the previous generations pension). Basically a big pyramid scheme from what I can gather 😂.
Why would the tax payers of what remain of the UK pay for a separate counties pensions. It’s not like it’s a pot that has had been paid into as you would for private pension. We wouldn’t be paying for the rest of the UKs pensions so it should work out about similar to present for us (depending on our % of pensioners per population compared to the other nations which imagine is similar)
I'm sure it will be one of many things, or everythings, that will be negotiated when the time comes.
I think it's a fairly decent thing for Scotland to have a starting point of saying
Well the UK exchequer pays for all the pensions due to expats and that's what Scottish pensioners will basically become.
rUK will say its your share of pensions.
And so it will be resolved with a bit of give and take.
Yeah, cos every ex pat takes the whole tax paying base with them so it’s exactly the same as independence. If you want to believe this nonsense, then fine. But you are in for a shockQuote:
Originally Posted by greenlex
Is it correct the payment they receive is frozen when they leave the country and they don't receive an increase?Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlex
Independence is not like becoming an ex pat, it's not like retiring to Spain. If England declared Independence would we treat all the English pensioners as ex pats and Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would keep paying the pensions? Course not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
At the moment Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland contribute 100% of NI to pay for 100% of pensions, Scotland contributes about 8% of that. If Scotland left then there is no chance 92% of people left will keep paying 100% of pensions. If Scotland leave the tax base leaves, that's not the case now for people retiring to Spain.
There was a FOI released today from the Scottish Government saying nothing has changed from 2014, which is upon Independence the responsibility for paying pensions in Scotland is the responsibility of the Scottish Government, and why wouldn't it?
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...coming-1986075
Other than confusion I am struggling to see why Ian Blackford brought this up.
https://theferret.scot/treasury-secr...endence-false/
Not sure it counts as a 'lie' but disappointing to see Mike Russell and Michelle Thomson coming out with this sort of guff in an attempt to politicise the Ukraine crisis (although I see Thomson has subsequently apologised):
https://www.heraldscotland.com/polit...-independence/
I was actually quite impressed (for a change) by the SNP's Alyn Smith in the Commons the other day when he made clear that the situation was too serious for the SNP to do anything other than support the government.
While pensions are paid from current revenue, the amount you receive is based on contributions throughout your working life. I would think that anyone individual who has paid all their contributions to the UK all their life would have no problem winning a case against the UK for payment wherever they lived.
It will all be sorted in negotiations and the SG will make the payments once Indy is achieved.
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Which of the two options are you saying it will be as you say we can claim from the uk and will get paid by Scotland. Can’t be both. Well if the snp pull that off then they can have my vote.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
The actuaries will work out what will be due and then a payment will be made to the new SG to help deal with it. The SG will make the payments. It’s not that difficult to work out. There will be all sorts of financial stuff to be negotiated but none of it will affect payments that government has to make, such as wages, pensions, debt interest etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
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Sure I saw something that the amount that would be raised in contributions in Scotland would cover state pension around 3.5 times over.
As you say yourself they are paid from current revenues i.e. taxes. As there is no pot then I don't see what they can work out and make a payment from if no pot exists. There is working balance of around a couple of months payment so maybe something from that, but that would be minimal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Not often I would do this but the SG position is clear at the moment (or was) that pensions will be paid by the SG and that's it. To start saying it will be negotiated or you can sue the UK Government (under what law I have no idea) is maybe not the winning strategy some might think it is.
As the FOI makes clear, there has been no change in policy.
That's not the case, where is your source for this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
National Insurance pays for more than just pensions, it pays for lots of other benefits as well.
I agree totally that the SG just needs to say that all pensions will be paid by them and leave it at that. No point conducting negotiations before a vote.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
In fact they should offer a pension rise as well. A commitment to bring it up to the EU average should be a key commitment.
Pointless getting into the mechanics of it all.
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Depends where they move to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Santa Cruz
Yep,Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-state-pension
UK pensions have nothing to do with citizenship, if you have paid enough NI in your life, you are eligible.
If rUK wants to stop paying pensions to people in iScotland who formerly paid NI in UK they will have to change the rules. Which they may well do, who knows?
Ultimately it’s a pointless argument. iScotland will of course have an ongoing need to pay its own pensions and will do so as required.
Yep , Scotland will have to take their share.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glory Lurker
Some might even suggest the Barnet formula should be applied, extra 10% or thereabouts on to Scotland’s share. :wink:
Quite happy to pay for Scottish pensions in an independent Scotland if it meant we had independence.
When Nicola Sturgeon published her plans for pensions in a separate Scottish state, she assumed that the full cost of paying pensions would be met by the Scottish taxpayer.
Nothing at all about UK Government paying for them or any kind of settlement etc. I don't see any world where rUK pays 100% of pensions with 92% of revenue.
https://www.webarchive.org.uk/waybac...2013/09/3492/0
Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
I’m not the least upset !
What is the criteria for receiving the pension? Assuming you have contributed and have met a minimum threshold, would it be citizenship/ passport.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
It is in the gift of the Westminster government to change the rules but currently they pay pensions to UK contributors who live abroad and have no issue paying pensions to UK contributors who hold dual nationality, NI being an example.
It’s badly thought out but Westminster governments of all creeds have made miscalculations through the years based on things always going their way.
As others have said, it would be about negotiating the financial settlement
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They have no difficulty paying to single nationalities whose nationality is not British! If they worked and paid NI here, that’s enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radium
The UK as we know it will cease to exist, pensions are a benefit and they can change the rules tomorrow if they wanted, decrease it or increase it or change the age you get it as they have done in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radium
The key thing is the tax base, if pensions cost the UK say £100BN a year now and that's made up contributions of say Scotland £10BN, Wales £5BN, NI £5BN and England £80BN then if Scotland leaves the UK they take their £10BN with them, leaving £90BN in contributions. To suggest those left pay higher taxes to still pay the total bill of £100BN and the pensions of what are essentially people in a foreign country now is just not something I ever see happening and the current Pensions Minister has said that. Remember there is no pot, it's all funded from current taxation.
Things change though, who knows where we will be. I just don't understand why it was Ian Blackford that brought this up again as a point to debate.
… so the negotiations have begun, £10 BN you say.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
In essence the consequences for votes in Scotland or Ireland regarding independence are that everything needs to be evaluated and allocated.
There’s a narrative that says that Scotland walks away penniless because it has no share in the benefits of the UK. Bringing this up to my mind questions that thinking.
You’re right, at least two new systems will have to be put in place. Neither will be the UK Treasury.
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The wording of the thread suggested otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
The UK will not cease to exist. There is zero chance of that. England, Wales and NI will continue as the UK. They will be the continuing state. That is agreed by all sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
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No, strangely seemingly quite excited by another definite snag, which is definitely going to be a huge issue we can’t get round, that must have stopped every other country who’s ever considered independence in the past going through with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
Still, at least it got the hibs.netter together reps active again 👍
Funny that the EU and UK still collaborate on pensions for citizens who have paid into UK and EU schemes despite the UK leaving the EU.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
So we're not just too wee, too poor and too stupid to run our own affairs, we're now too old.
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I’m not really in for a shock am I? Come independence up here I’m willing to bet anything you like that the pension I get will be at least equal to what the rUK will be getting. It’ll be paid for in exactly the same way it would be just now too. I certainly believe that. Might even be more.Other forward thinking European countries seem to manage it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
I said the UK as we know it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
What's so difficult about an independent Scotland paying it's pensions for the people of an independent Scotland? That's what I am saying will happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
If you think the rUK will somehow keep paying it and increase the taxes of the people left in rUK to fund it and that's a message you think would work well in any campaign then crack on.
You want to bet that your pension will be paid by the U.K. government?Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlex
I guess my point is that Scotland will pay Scottish pensions. It will be part of an overall agreement but in reality we take the tax payers and so we pay the pension at whatever level can be afforded. Other than that there is nothing to agree
This nonsense about Westminster being liable legally is just setting up a grievance to wind people up
I knew Gers would come in handy some time. These are not my figures, so I've not checked them. Maybe those worried about pensions would like to do so. 😭Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Scottish state pensions will be more than covered by Scottish NI.
Annual NI = £11476m
Annual Pensions = £8517m
Leaves £2959m surplus for other benefits.
Source Table 1.1 & Box 3.2 GERS 2021
No, we won't have to take a share. It's rUK's debt as tge continuing nation. We might choose to as part of the negotiations, but that's the point - it's not black and white.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
But they are based on historic contributions. Doesn't matter where they are paid from , the UK has an obligation to honour that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul1642
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Correct. We could always take a share of the palaces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glory Lurker
Not sure what Wales think of that. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
"as we know it" makes it make sense though - the UK would change significantly if Scotland left.
The pension question is a good one and the example of an expat having contributed to NI then leaving still getting his pension is an interesting example, but I think it boils down to the difference between a person leaving the UK and a tax base leaving the UK.
There's no pot of money waiting to pay our pensions (I'm 30 so doubt I'll see any pension regardless!), it's done on a cash in and out basis with the current tax base paying for the current pensioners. I think it makes sense that when a tax base leaves (Scotland) then pensioners from that tax base wouldn't receive the pension from the remainder of the tax base.
As already mentioned though iScotland would then have its own tax base in its own right to pay for the pensioners here so the net result isn't that different to where we are now anyway (just a realisation of the notional deficit that'll exist between pension contributions and payments that are Scotland specific, and any subsequent consequences; reduced benefits, higher tax, or increased debt).
Those 'other benefits' cost £13BN. Universal Credit for example is £3BN, housing benefit is £1.3BN and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo7
But that's for another day.
Im not sure if you've checked the numbers, but are those figures I've posted correct re the pensions? That's after all what the thread was started about. 👍Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
Yes 100% correct, if you believe GERs.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo7
Thanks. 👍Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
Thanks Ron. I knew there was a surplus. I over estimated it but a surplus nonetheless!! Mon the Scottish pension 😁Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo7
Ros Altmann doesn't appear to think it's much of an issue. She may be a Tory but as pension experts go there aren't many more knowledgeable in the UK than her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Attachment 25624
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It's only a surplus when you don't pay any other benefits that NI pays for! I don't think we will stop paying housing benefit, Universal Credits etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Correct. And just like housing benefit and UC, we will continue to pay pensions. Some will continue to try scare pensioners though.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
I think housing benefit is rolled into UC now?
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It's weird that resident Unionists now seem to be arguing that the Scottish NI contributions aren't large enough to sustain a bunch of defined benefits when they themselves started off arguing that NI doesn't specifically pay for any benefit and is just another part of general taxation. :confused:
Anyway, money is a bit like hibs.net accounts made up of <biblical first name><bunch of numbers>, you can always magic up some more provided you don't overdo it. :wink:
Exactly, if the UK refuse to pay pensions then Scotland could refuse to pay its share of the debt. There will be negotiations after a yes vote, it won’t just be a clean break.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glory Lurker
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We can start trading personal insults if you like but the admins would probably prefer we keep it in topic. Feel free to put me on ignore.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
https://www.holyrood.com/inside-poli...ts-complicated
Just yesterday!
https://fraserofallander.org/who-pay...dent-scotland/
And the fraser of allender article
But does she want to bet on that?Quote:
Originally Posted by degenerated
Probably :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by WeeRussell
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Further to the conversation on pension. I and others mentioned that NI contributions are more than enough to cover pensions, however it turns out that they are not ring-fenced, so other income could also be used to increase scottish pensions, while the NI contributions can also be used for other purposes.
Glad that has been cleared up.
It would be helpful if blackford took that line rather than telling us the U.K. will pay Scottish pensionsQuote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
He's just trolling his unionist opposition. Seems he's quite good at it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol
That would probably be the case but i don't think it's that straightforward.
It could be argued that if the rest of the UK has no responsibility to pay back the pension money paid by Scottish taxpayers, as we're no longer British, then why should Scotland have a responsibility to pay part of the 'British' national debt.
It's probably just part of the pre-negotiations stuff, like saying 'if we don't get what we want, you can stuff the share of national debt'.
Seeing as we're discussing the SNP again, has anybody mentioned that twat James Dornan yet? I often wonder what he's going to come up with next in his list of fairytale grievances.
The toilets are broken in the local Shamrock Irish Theme Pub and they can't get a plumber to fix them till next week? Obvious case of anti-Irish racism among all local plumbers in Scotland.
Shameful!!!! :grr:
The pension money paid by Scottish tax payers has already been paid back . It gets paid in pensions to Scots every month.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_M
The UK national debt has been run up over many years on infrastructure over the whole Uk, health service , fighting covid etc. etc.
We say stuff our share of national debt , rest of Uk say stuff your exports to us and put block on our produce entering rest of UK or what ever they will call themselves.
I think it’s around 70% of our exports go to rest of Uk , so could be a problem.
We'll be fine. You just have to believe more.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_M
If anyone would make you think the SNP are heading down the same cul de sac of complacency and creeping ineptitude that ScotLab have ended up in it's him.
To be fair, he's not so much of a lying ******* as just a prick.
Wow, up until this point I assumed you were an rUK-based taxpayer that didn't want to lose out in divorce.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
But, you are actually looking for your own country to be shafted? :confused:
I doubt the rUK will ban all EU imports.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
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btw, there is no mechanism to share out the debt. As rUK will be the continuing state it will be fully liable, the Treasury made that clear in 2014. The Scottish government were offering "solidarity payments" in lieu of a share of debt which seems like the right thing to do. Alternatively, one could say rUK has had plenty of value from Scottish natural assets over the years, isn't that enough?Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
iScotland fast tracked into the EEA/customs union by way of an association agreement on the way to EU membership would be subject to all the same trade restrictions as the rest of Europe with the UK. Trade with rUK is going to be painful, there's no getting round that. Equally, there's no way for rUK to make it "especially hard" for Scotland. Which given their Brexit trade woes in general, would be a fairly self defeating thing anyway?
Trade is sorted for the next indyref. Everyone knows exactly what the relationship will be. It’s not great due to brexit but the advantages of accessing the larger EU market will outweigh the downsides in the medium/long term. You only have to look at how Ireland moved their trade away from UK and thrived because of it.
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Just look at the new routes from Irish ports, bypassing the UK. It didn't take more than a year either. The Welsh ports are now in decline.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
I can't stand the guy, but sadly he's my local MSP.
And you're right, he really reminds me of the prats that were in charge of Monklands Council. They were so bad for so long that the whole Council area was dismantled.
This is an interesting thread from well known 'yoon' Andy Wightman on why the failures on land reform, specifically land taxes, are so damaging:
https://twitter.com/andywightman/sta...8olnWRsOA&s=19
This is the kind of thing the ruling govt should be challenged on when discussing their record as opposed to fairy stories about pensions.
Wightman isn't a "Yoon" he is a "Nat" and ex Green MSP. One of a few politicians that was respected across the Parliament for his work on land reform. He has written a number of books on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
His resignation letter on why he left the Greens is worth a read.
https://andywightman.scot/archives/4634
I think you missed the sarcasm in my post.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
Ah, ok apologies. I did, you can never be so sure these days! He has always been someone that is free of thinking, which is why I think he was admired so much. A loss for the Parliament especially when you look at some of the parliamentarians we have today, and that's across all parties, the standard is poor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
With an office in Orchard Brae House you would think the Scotsman would be all over this story.[emoji23]Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
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The Scotsman are too busy tying themselves in knots just now.Attachment 25633Attachment 25634Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
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To be fair, I’ve seen people on both sides of the debate trying to find an angle on this war that proves their originally held views to be true. The war in Ukraine does not make Scottish independence any more or less of a good idea. Trying to tie it to this issue is idiotic.Quote:
Originally Posted by degenerated
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That was worth reading, Thanks for posting. Liked this bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by James310
I have always been clear that the job of an MSP is threefold: to represent constituents on matters within the devolved competence of the Parliament, to hold the Scottish Government to account for their decisions, and to scrutinise legislation and make laws for the people of Scotland. MSPs are representatives of the people, not delegates of political parties.
Beggars belief indeed. Well, it used to with the Scotsman..Quote:
Originally Posted by degenerated
Well, yeah... People in the (then) Irish Free State continued to claim a UK state pension as they'd paid into the UK system and were entitled to one. I'm no fan of the SNP but confused how this makes them lying *******s.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
As each & every politician lies hugely. Some just more than others. Tories for example, if justice was applied, wouldn’t fit the bill.each & every one of them lies through their teeth shamelessly. Nothing more disgusting in the UK than a disgusting tory imo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErinGoBraghHFC
You're not the only one.
This was exactly the position of the UK DWP, there was arguments at the time and they only confirmed about a day before the vote (there was another argument about why they delayed releasing the letter confirming)Quote:
Originally Posted by ErinGoBraghHFC
There was also discussions by the SNP at the time that they could envision taking on the responsibility of making the payments going forward as part of a negotiatiated settlement (we wouldn't need 10% of trident or the aircraft carriers etc)
If you could find it, there was excellent discussions at the time on the indy thread in here!
(Including a scan of the DWP announcement letter)
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...terest-3590431
Can anyone explain why it’s not in our interest to know what legal advice our Scottish Government, who promised transparency and openness, have received about the legality of holding their own indyref 2 ?
What does the rest of the article say??Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
Govt never publishes legal advice. If you want some legal advice, you should get your own.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
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The reason Sturgeon gave for not revealing what the advice was , that it was not in public interest to know, not that they don’t reveal legal advice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Do you seriously believe that had the advice received been positive it would have been kept from us, the tax payers.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1810191.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Don’t think that’s quite accurate .
Well, bring about a no confidence motion and you can force them to reveal this legal advice as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
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No need to , it’s obvious the advice was negative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
There isn't an inquiry or a legal case around the referendum bill so they have no need to publish it.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
There you go then. What’s the problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
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That seems to have cleared that up then :hilariousQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
The problem is theScottish Government is pressing ahead with plans for a new indyref.
This is no doubt cost us tax payers , and if they have been told holding their own indyref was not within the powers of the Scottish assemble, there could be big problems.
If Nicola’s paying for this planning out her own purse or the SNP are using their own funds fair enough, but I’m sure it’s us tax payers who will pay for the SNP’s illegal posturing.
Us tax payers instructed her to proceed with this, that why we elected a pro independence government.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
Yeah but they don't have a super dooper ultra majority so that's doesnt countQuote:
Originally Posted by degenerated
Or something
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There were fewer votes for the independence parties than the unionist parties in Scotland at the last General Election.Quote:
Originally Posted by degenerated
That doesn't matter a jot.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger